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Several questions regarding city size and other concepts

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by AvalancheMaster, Nov 25, 2013.

  1. Vuldacon

    Vuldacon Dedicated to Excellence Supporter

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    Yoda Power... Under "Worker Jobs" in the Biq, you set the Prerequisite :)
     
  2. Yoda Power

    Yoda Power ✫✫✫✫✫✫✫

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    Did you see what I quoted by Oz? If Outpost in the Worker Jobs page is actually the Colony worker action, then what is Outpost?

    As far as I remember (haven't checked) there is no Colony worker job.
     
  3. AvalancheMaster

    AvalancheMaster Not the face of mercy.

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    I've checked in the hex editor and it really seems that "Outpost" is for Outposts. Nothing that mentions colonies at all.
     
  4. Vuldacon

    Vuldacon Dedicated to Excellence Supporter

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    Yoda Power... I thought you were asking what determines when you can build an Outpost. I did not see or understand the confusion was concerning Colony and Outpost.

    Worker Actions

    ... Build Colony and Build Outpost are two different things.
    You can set the Prerequisite for Outpost under Worker Actions in the Biq.

    ^{Build Colony (B)}
    ^$LINK<Colonies=GCON_Colony> are built atop $LINK<tradable resources=GCON_ResourcesN>. If $LINK<connected=GCON_Trade>
    to a city, a [colony] provides the resource to that city.

    ^{Build Outpost (Ctrl-O)}
    ^$LINK<Outposts=GCON_Outposts> eliminate fog of war in neutral or owned territory. They can be built after the discovery
    of $LINK<Masonry=TECH_Masonry>.

    EDIT: Just to clear up the Build Colony Question... There is not a setting that will allow a prerequisite for Build Colony. That is available always if that is Flagged in the Biq for Units under Worker/EngineerActions. The Only control there is you can Omit it by not Flagging it.
     
  5. AvalancheMaster

    AvalancheMaster Not the face of mercy.

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    In reply to my question about "Build Colony":

     
  6. Yoda Power

    Yoda Power ✫✫✫✫✫✫✫

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    @Vuldacon. Yes, but by not flagging it the AI won't be able to use workers properly. (This is just from memory, I haven't had the chance to check this)

    Or perhaps Oz is right and there's some programming error or like. :hmm:
     
  7. Vuldacon

    Vuldacon Dedicated to Excellence Supporter

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    Correct.
     
  8. AvalancheMaster

    AvalancheMaster Not the face of mercy.

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    Yep, I tried it just to see if it messes up the Worker AI, it does. Any workaround for this?
     
  9. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

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    :whew: Okay, it's seriously obscure ... and Vuldacon is, as usual ( :worship: ) correct.

    For all these many long years, I've assumed that "Colony" = "Outpost" as there isn't a "Build Colony" Worker Job.

    So, "Outposts" is a Worker Job and "Colony" is a Terrain attribute.

    Evidently, "Outposts" eliminate Fog Of War for the possessing player, although (having never used them) I'm not certain to what extent.

    That's why I'm the Unofficial Archivist :D


    Humbly Yours,

    Oz
     
  10. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

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    (Never mind ...)
     
  11. Vuldacon

    Vuldacon Dedicated to Excellence Supporter

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    Ozy... there is a Worker Job Called Build Colony. In the Biq, it is on the Top Left of the Worker Job List in Units...or is that what you meant?
     
  12. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

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    No, I indeed meant, "Worker Jobs" in the tab of the same name as opposed to what you're mentioning under, "Worker/Engineer Action" in the Units tab.

    I suppose if it (IIRC) results in the loss of the Worker, then it isn't a, "Job ..." but I guess check boxes for "Worker Suicide Actions" might have been inappropriate :think:

    If nothing else, at least I'm getting the sense that I'm not the only one who hasn't played around with Outposts much ... BTW, would you happen to know to what degree Outposts eliminate Fog Of War?


    Ever Onward & Upward,

    Oz
     
  13. Erebras

    Erebras Prince

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    Wow. Lemme see where to go with this.

    Firstly, the outpost eliminates fog of war depending on where it is located. On level ground such as plains it eliminates one square. On hills it can see two squares away, like a normal unit standing on a hill does. But on a mountaintop, yes, an outpost can see THREE squares away. They had spyglasses in antiquity and prehistory, apparently.

    Interesting point about worker jobs. There is no civ advance requirement, but an enterprising modder could make it effectively not show up until later if all the non-bonus resources required civ advance(s). That is to say, all resources flagged as strategic or luxury can be colonized, so if you want Build Colony to be an action that cannot be performed until a point in time, make the resources appear at that point in time. This, to my mind, is perhaps the only workaround on this.

    Freshwater-adjacent cities. If you made the tier 2 city negligible in size, you could simulate a basic two-tier city system, but, admittedly, that is not what you want, since you want to add Megapolis to the tiers, not eliminate a tier altogether. I will point out two things about this: 1) I had a Railway Station improvement which I thought would be clever to allow city size to level 2, except that cities on rivers were unable to build railway stations, so anything flagged with "allows level 2 city size" cannot be built in freshwater-adjacent settlements. 2) The Shakespeare Theater allows level 3 city size; I don't think you can build a hospital in a settlement containing the Theater, but I may be mistaken.

    Unflagging worker jobs is, of course, not an option. I'm unfamiliar why an undesired worker job requires a "dummy resource" instead of merely requiring it to have a "dummy civ advance", instead. Could someone 'splain that to me?

    Extra Eras. Unless the era transition screens are desirable -- they don't appear in multiplayer games -- an era could be expanded into two "eras" by requiring all essential-for-advancement techs in the early part of the era to be required before being able to research the techs for the later part of the same era. In concept, the techtree would have an hourglass turned on its side shape, as it were.
     
  14. AvalancheMaster

    AvalancheMaster Not the face of mercy.

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    As I've pointed out in the development thread, I've fixed the problem with unflagging worker jobs. I've fixed it, the AI uses the workers, and tomorrow I'll test whether or not it will produce two different type of workers that provide different worker jobs sets. I'm guessing worker strength has something to do with how would the AI choose what worker to produce.

    So, yeah, once I conduct this test, expect a full "Study on task-specific worker units and AI behavior" thread. If only my MA degree was on modding games and not on English Language...
     
  15. Erebras

    Erebras Prince

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    Yes, AvalancheMaster, it's good that you fixed the worker job thingy, but the question remains why a worker job is put out of commission by requiring a non-existent resource instead of just having it require a tech advance you can never obtain. (Or rather, why it is often suggested that this be the way to put the job(s) out of reach.)
     
  16. AvalancheMaster

    AvalancheMaster Not the face of mercy.

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    Eh?

    As far as I understand your question, the answer would be - if not all worker actions are selected, the game will screw the AI. That is, the AI would not use a worker unit without all jobs enabled for it. I've managed to fix this (and I mean fix, not find a way to work around it).
     
  17. Vuldacon

    Vuldacon Dedicated to Excellence Supporter

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    Ozy... as Erebras posted, Outposts eliminate Fog of War 1, 2, 3 Tiles on Flat Lands, Hills and Mountains.
    Not much point on Flat Lands other than you don't have to keep a Unit there :lol:

    AvalancheMaster... Good Luck with your Tests :)
     
  18. AvalancheMaster

    AvalancheMaster Not the face of mercy.

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    Already did them, check the tutorial sub-forum.
     
  19. Vuldacon

    Vuldacon Dedicated to Excellence Supporter

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    AvalancheMaster... OK Good Find.
    I wonder what other things could be a simple fix handled with a hex editor.

    ...depends on IF Hard Coded or not.
     
  20. AvalancheMaster

    AvalancheMaster Not the face of mercy.

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    I've tried adding eras and terrain types (or deleting as well) - that's definitely hardcoded. Eras stay 4, terrain types stay 13 (or was it 14?). If I delete one, the game crashes, and the editor won't load the files.

    What's more thrilling, and what I've already discussed with Oz, is the possibility for a script language for events within a Civ3 game. Now, I do need to check the hex of the save files, but if they are similar to the BIQs, I don't see why this wouldn't be possible.

    Such a script language wouldn't be all-powerful - we will still be limited to 5 advisors, 4 eras, fixed number of worker jobs, etc., etc.

    However, it will still allow for a splendid flexibility. Think of recreating historical events - founding cities on an exact date at an exact location. Also, it can be a way to modify what roads, irrigation and mines do (e.g. - mines that provide commerce, irrigation that provides different amount of food for different civs). It will allow for a great flexibility.

    Again, it will not make everything possible, in fact, here's a list of some things that cannot be changed:

    1) Any part of interface
    2) How railroads behave (excluding the extra bonus they give to irrigated/mined tiles)
    3) AI strategies. You can flex them a wee, but that's all.
    4) Maximum cities
    5) Biggest workable area around a settlement
    6) Number of worker actions
    7) Number of eras

    Still, here are some things I think will be possible:

    1) Tech requirements for Build Colony and Build City (though they won't show in the Pedia/Scientific Advisor screen)
    2) What bonuses do irrigation, road and mines give
    3) Rivers move across the map while time passes
    4) Dynamic terrain, hellyeah!
    5) Dynamic governments (becoming less/more corrupt with time; with less/more scientific output).
    6) Recreate historical events

    Now, keep in mind that the changes can only occur one turn a time (that means, you won't have a change in the middle of your turn). Still, I do believe it is possible, and I do believe it will be extremely helpful.


    Now, I am no programmer myself, but I do guess that such a scripting tool will be possible only if save files can be edited and if the game reloads a temporary cache between turns. The most crucial part is actually what the game does between the turns. If we're able to find out what's happening between turns, such a tool is entirely plausible.
     

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