SGOTM 04 - Geezers

[AlanH]

Welcome to your C_IV Warlords SGOTM 4 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, fractal map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals including India. All victory conditions are enabled except Diplomatic, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Space defeat by Gandhi.

Versions
This game will be played in Warlords Version 2.08 only.

It will be played using the current version of the HoF Mod. This is version 2.08.003 for Windows. There are insufficient Mac players to form a Mac team. so it will be played in Windows only.

If later versions of Warlords or the HoF Mod are released they cannot be used for this game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of February 23.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Ragnar of The Vikings
Rivals - 7 civs including Gandhi (who is locked in war with Ragnar)
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, cylindrical, medium sea level, temperate
Game Speed - Epic
Diplomatic Victory Disabled
All other settings are defaults

Notes

• Please visit the C-IV Warlords SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
• Warlords v.2.08 is supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with the same version throughout the game.
  
• Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.
  
• Awards will be given to teams who achieve Space defeats to India in the least turns.
  
• All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game

 

[Htadus]

Checking in. Here's to a winning SGOTM. Oh I forgot. YAAAAHOOOOOO ME FIRST.

I am going to open Word and write my thoughts on winning this game to get the discussion started. But one thing is for sure, with Civ4 getting a civ to the stars is much easy than C3, we just need to make sure that India survive and is a powerhouse, either 1st or 2nd place, in all but cultural side. Be back with more.

 

[Thrallia]

Second to check in

I've already pm'd a question to Alan concerning the state of our AW condition with Gandhi.

My thought is that we could vassalize him, then gift him back all his cities until he is large enough to break free of our vassalage...at that point, unless I'm mistaken, the AW will be destroyed and we would be free to attempt to woo Gandhi into a PA later on, allowing us to help Gandhi build the spaceship

Hopefully he gets back to me one way or the other tonight.

 

[Jenarie]

Can you gift cities to a vassal? I've tried that before and couldn't do it but I don't remember the conditions under which I was making the attempt.

Also checking in. I have tons of thoughts on this variant but I'll try to put them into some semi-coherent form before posting.

Edit: Gave up on form and just started posting.

 

[The-Hawk]

Hi everyone... checking in

My thought is that we could vassalize him, then gift him back all his cities until he is large enough to break free of our vassalage...at that point, unless I'm mistaken, the AW will be destroyed and we would be free to attempt to woo Gandhi into a PA later on, allowing us to help Gandhi build the spaceship

Not sure the last part of this will work. If we are in a PA, I believe we share victory or defeat. I would think this means if Ghandi launches, we also win. The OP says laurels go to the "fastest Space defeat by Ghandi"...

However, it is a very clever idea

 

[Thrallia]

hmm...true. I also just saw that it says "you are allowed no peace treaties"
I guess that takes the wind out of those sails...although I suppose we could possibly vassalize him still, gift him all our techs, and then try to figure out how to unvassalize him into a war status again...

huh, perhaps I should scrap the idea and start thinking of some other ideas.

Now, it does sound as if we'll be close to India, since we are a 'neighbor' of India in the game description...we just need to figure out where he is and work out some way to enable him to have enough production/commerce to get to space quickly.

 

[The-Hawk]

huh, perhaps I should scrap the idea and start thinking of some other ideas.

I don't think you should scrap it yet . I don't think the PA part will work, but the vassal part might. I have no experience with vassals, but if we can use that as a mechanism for gifting techs, then I think we should explore it. Especially if the master can voluntarily terminate the vassalage. I.e. early war to vassalize him, then turn the economy over to full science, gift him techs, unvassalize him and hope he decides to build a spaceship. Certainly worth doing some research on vassals.

 

[Jenarie]

I like the idea a lot. Very creative and I doubt other teams would have thought of it.

I'm wondering though if vassal = peace treaty? I'm not sure how it works with the rules.

 

[Jenarie]

The variant reminds me of two old RB ones I read a few months ago. They had to get the first civ they met to space although they didn't have the complication of always war. I just skimmed through them and I think the space elevator idea is about all we can possibly use but they are really great reads if you have some time. RB24-Big Brother & RB24s - Big Sister

In Big Sister, ruff_hi built the space elevator and then gifted the city. Obviously that won't work for us but I was thinking last night since we'd be at war we could possibly copy that tactic except just build it on the border with Ghandi and walk all our troops out of it so he could take it. We'd have to guard it to make sure no other civ got it but I think it should be doable?

Bede also discovered (in Big Brother) that you can use your engineers to rush production of another civ's build. He helped Monty build the space elevator. I don't think this would be usable though during war but I'm not sure... with a good escort we could get the engineer there but I doubt he could get into the city to rush. Does anyone know offhand if it is possible to gift a unit while at war? You don't have to worry about open boarders to get into the territory so if you can gift before it is killed we might be able to do that?

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Checking in.

Some initial thoughts:

Early Game Priorities

• Scouting - Find out if Ghandhi's on our land. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if Gyathaar has placed him on another continent. I've just remembered that Ragnar's UB gives +1 to naval movement so that seems even more likely. Find out who else is on our island/continent.
• Build up our military power - We really want to kill off any aggressive civs that might divert Ghandhi from space. Scientific civs should be left as trading partners (for the time being).
• If we find Ghandhi is on another continent then we need to beeline Optics to find out where he is.
• If Ghandhi is on our continent then we probably want to capture/build(?) some cities near him that he can 'capture' to help him expand.

Middle Game Priorities

• As we can't trade with Ghandhi then we need to find some civs to trade with that we can be fairly certain will also trade with Ghandhi - That way we can help his research.
• To be able to accomplish this we obviously need some decent science of our own. Great Library would be helpful.
• Probably worth building the UN to make sure nobody else does. We obviously need to make sure that that we will be elected SecGen so that we control what resolutions get put forward.

End Game Priorities

• Make sure no other civ will beat Ghandhi. Realistically this means armed force so we will need to have built up military power by this stage.
• Find out where key resources exist, such as aluminium,and liberate them so that Ghandhi can make best use of them.
• If at all feasible it would be convenient if we could build helpful wonders, the space elevator for example, for Ghadhi to 'capture' from us. This means having the odd Great Engineer(s) hanging about to help build them.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Turn 1: 4000 BC - 2800 BC
Turn 2: 2800 BC - 2200 BC
Turn 3: 2200 BC - 1600 BC
Turn 4: 1600 BC - 1030 BC
Turn 5: 1030 BC - 700 BC
Turn 6: 700 BC - 400 BC
Turn 7: 400 BC - 250 BC
Turn 8: 250 BC - 100 BC
Turn 9: 50 AD - 200 AD
Turn 10: 200 AD - 350 AD
Turn 11: 350 AD - 500 AD
Turn 12: 500 AD - 650 AD
Turn 13: 650 AD - 800 AD
Turn 14: 800 AD - 950 AD
Turn 15: 950 AD - 1100 AD
Turn 16: 1100 AD - 1160 AD
Turn 17: 1160 AD - 1220 AD
Turn 18: 1220 AD - 1280 AD
Turn 19: 1280 AD - 1340 AD
Turn 20a: 1340 AD - 1388 AD
TUrn 20b: 1388 AD - 1400 AD
Turn 21a: 1400 AD - 1406 AD
Turn 21b: 1406 AD - 1460 AD
Turn 22: 1460 AD - 1520 AD
Turn 23: 1520 AD - 1550 AD
Turn 24: 1550 AD - 1580 AD
Turn 25a: 1580 AD - 1601 AD
Turn 25b: 1601 AD - 1610 AD

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Turn 26a: 1610 AD - 1622 AD
Turn 26b: 1625 AD - 1640 AD
Turn 27a: 1640 AD - 1658 AD
Turn 27b: 1658 AD - 1670 AD
Turn 28: 1670 AD - 1700 AD
Turn 29: 1700 AD - 1730 AD
Turn 30: 1730 AD - 1750 AD
Turn 31: 1750 AD - 1770 AD
Turn 32: 1770 AD - 1790 AD
Turn 33: 1790 AD - 1810 AD
Turn 34a: 1810 AD - 1813 AD
Turn 34b: 1813 AD - 1815 AD
Turn 34c: 1815 AD - 1817 AD
Turn 35a: 1817 AD - 1822 AD
Turn 35b: 1823 AD - 1827 AD
Turn 36a: 1827 AD - 1834 AD
Turn 36b: 1834 AD - 1840 AD
Turn 37: 1840 AD - 1850 AD
Turn 38a: 1850 AD - 1855 AD
Turn 38b: 1855 AD - 1860 AD
Turn 39: 1860 AD - 1870 AD
Turn 40: 1870 AD - 1880 AD
Turn 41: 1880 AD - 1890 AD
Turn 42: 1890 AD - 1900 AD
Turn 43: 1900 AD
Turn 44: 1900 AD - 1910 AD
Turn 53: 1910 AD - 1920 AD
Turn 54: 1921 AD - 1930 AD
Turn 55: 1930 AD - 1940 AD
Last Turn : 1940 AD - 1943 AD

 

[Sam_Yeager]

The variant reminds me of two old RB ones I read a few months ago. They had to get the first civ they met to space although they didn't have the complication of always war.

Yes, I previously followed those.

In Big Sister, ruff_hi built the space elevator and then gifted the city. Obviously that won't work for us but I was thinking last night since we'd be at war we could possibly copy that tactic except just build it on the border with Ghandi and walk all our troops out of it so he could take it. We'd have to guard it to make sure no other civ got it but I think it should be doable?

I see we think alike.

Bede also discovered (in Big Brother) that you can use your engineers to rush production of another civ's build. He helped Monty build the space elevator.

IIRC Bede's team had an OB and were friendly. They may even have had a DP. None of which will apply to us.

I don't think this would be usable though during war but I'm not sure... with a good escort we could get the engineer there but I doubt he could get into the city to rush. Does anyone know offhand if it is possible to gift a unit while at war? You don't have to worry about open boarders to get into the territory so if you can gift before it is killed we might be able to do that?

I suspect the game would regard it as an attack. The 'capture' route is probably the better idea.

 

[Jenarie]

You start the game as a neighbour of India. Following the pact you are at permanent war with Gandhi, and will remain so for the rest of the game. You are allowed no peace treaties with India. And India must win by space victory. All victory conditions are enabled except Diplomatic, but the winning team will be the one that gets India to Alpha Centauri, and does it fastest.

From what AlanH posted in the sign up thread I think we'll find him right away. I guess "neighbour" could be relative but I was thinking we'd be right next to him.

I was thinking the same thing last night about finding trading partners that are also friends with Gandhi although when the thread opened everything I'd thought went out of my head. I think since we will ALWAYS be at war with him, we won't get any negative "you declared war on our friend" type faction hits so if we can manage to run diplomacy to be friends with his friends (maybe through religion?) we might be able to feed him techs pretty easily.

So agree that the key will be getting ahead and staying ahead in tech so we can spread what we want him to have. We may have to trade them out to several civs to bring the value down enough for other civs to trade them quickly to Gandhi unless he has a really close friend. Also agree that we'll need to keep our military up enough to cripple anyone who looks like they may launch - it seems more likely if we are spreading techs around trying to get them to Gandhi that another civ may try. You guys can probably come up with a less messy way of "gifting" though and it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

I'm at a disadvantage in this game as I've never even tried for a space victory much less won one. I'll try to play some single player space games but most of my previous games have been won by culture before people would go space so I'm not even very familiar with the techs that far along in the tree.

Guess I'll stop haunting the board and go start one of those practice games. No more babble from me tonight I promise.

Edit: Please let me know if I am talking too much. I tend to say whatever I'm thinking when I'm thinking it but I don't want to annoy people. I've been known to post one thing then after thinking about it come back an hour later and disagree with myself. If you'd prefer I think things out fully before posting I can try so you don't have so much babble to read through.

I quit my job a couple months ago to take care of my mom who had some medical issues (she's a lot better now) so I'm home and bored all day which is why I have so much time to haunt the board.

 

[Htadus]

I see Jenarie beat me to it.

I think Gandhi is going to be on the same continent since in the signup thread ALanH said "You start the game as a neighbour of India. Following ......"

I do not think we can vassel Gandhi since that would mean no war. But it is an excellent idea to get the Mod to comment on it. I wondered about that too but then recalled the always war condition.

General stratergy:

• Protect ourself and India.
• Build several finance cities near india and let Gandhi capture them as the available land become limited during late early game. This should prevent them from razing them and by that time code of Law should be available to help us perhaps relocate.
• Since india will found a religion we should get it and spread it to other civs.
• Build Great Lib in a city to be turned over to India.
• We should deny india the cultural route, so no early gifting of Pyramids;built or captured.
• We should trade (and gift) techs freely.
• We should eliminate any dead beat civ's who are not teching and perhaps Agressive ones.
• Pass UN resolution for no nukes. Maybe after we build a few.

Early game:
Strategy:
Scout around. Build up our strength/power.
First priority is to build up our defense or offense. I rarely go for archery (always trade) but in this game, I am willing to vote for Archery.

Science: Archery or to Mining and Bronze Working. My preferance is BW for needed chops for settlers and follwed by Archery if no copper nearby.

Build: WB,Scout, Worker and WB or WB, worker, Scout and WB. I prefer latter. Since there is no way to get Gandhi to build the oracle, we should do it if we do not have to build many units in a hurry. If stone is near it would be nice to know where on Fractal we are located via SH. I am guessing we are north of EQ.

Mid Game:
Who knows now, we will know when we get there.

 

[Htadus]

BTW. Aren't GL are invisible to others.

 

[markh]

Good morning ladies and gentlemen !

We are already first in posts.

UN is out. We do not have to worry about it. It is disabled. We just have to keep an eye on the domination limit and that no other AI beats Gandhi in the space race.

I think we have to see where Gandhi is first before we can set up a plan how to get him to the stars. If he is isolated like in the original Civ3 SGOTM the whole situation changes. I would like to have a look at the game first before posting my ideas.

@Jenarie: Don't hesitate to post what ever you think of. Any ideas will help.

 

[markh]

We have three proposed city sites. I think we should move the scout on the proposed site SW to see what is there. If we settle in place a workboat seems obvious.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

UN is out. We do not have to worry about it. It is disabled.

I did read that Diplo victory was disabled but forgot it. However presumably the UN itself is still valid in terms of passing other resolutions? Something to bear in mind anyway.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I think we should move the scout on the proposed site SW to see what is there. If we settle in place a workboat seems obvious.

If you mean move the scout to the proposed site SW then I agree.