SGOTM 04 - Geezers

markh · Mar 23, 2007

Sounds good. :goodjob:

Will have a look at it tonight.

Htadus · Mar 24, 2007

Harbourboy said:
Ooh, it's all happening. I guess I'm getting the answer to my Hannibal question earlier than planned. Shame we are so culturally inferior (according to Thucydides) otherwise we could try to outculture the upcoming Carthaginian city. We can't really go to war with him until we've met more people because we need the tech trading to keep running hot.

Well actually we can put some major culture pressure on him. Soon we are going to have a religion - Khans and we will be building Monastaries, Temples, libs and other culture builds around the Hannies cities. Well at least the Libs and Monastaries.

Sam_Yeager said:
First thoughts are that we may want to leave the barb city until we are ready to settle that area to prevent Hannibal grabbing the spot instead.

Not a bad idea. But we should keep a few units nearby just in case someone try to claim it under us.

We may want to squeze in a Settle some where. I think for the time being we should get troops comming out of the Cap and soon we will be able to let the cities grow bigger too. I think each west coast city need to be reinforced with at least 3 units. Can we afford it?

Sam_Yeager · Mar 24, 2007

We are now left with three cities on the mainland belonging to Kahn that are widely separated . Realistically I think I can only take down New Sarai during my turn. I will let the southern force heal and then move it in the direction of Old Sarai. Old Sarai had 4 LBs and a cat according to Htadus's previous save, and will get stronger, so the southern force will need reinforcement. I propose to send the two swords healing to the W of New Saria south. The two swords by Ning-Hsia will reinforce the New Sarai force as will the cat south of Uppsala.

Htadus said:
I think each west coast city need to be reinforced with at least 3 units. Can we afford it?

We've a sword building in El Do and I'll see about building another axe for our commerce city. I want to start on a market in Nidaros after that though.

We've still that GG in El Do but I think I'll leave him sleeping there.

Techs

Given that we're going to be at war for at least another 20 turns I'm tempted by Drama but I agree that MC is a good choice. Shame that Hannibal already has it though.

We should get a GE from Nidaros in 6 turns. If I'm reading the tech preference list correctly then we could use it to pop Machinery which will help the beeline to Optics. With the state of our economy MC is unlikely to finish during my turn.

EDIT: Another ploy on the war front is to move both the New Sarai force, as well the two swords to the W, and the southern force to attack Old Sarai. Especially since it looks like it has five or six workers. I did consider this but rejected in favour of the New Sarai plan. Thoughts?

Sam_Yeager · Mar 25, 2007

Summary

New Sarai has fallen at the cost of far too many units.

Metal Casting learnt. GE born in Nidaros that can pop Machinery. Another cottage by IronSheep. Ghandhi is back for a second bite at our lands. :eek:

Turn 210 - 650 AD
MM Hiathi for growth.
Turn 211 - 665 AD
Hannibal asks for OB. I agree. Start sugar plantation. Stop growth in Nidaros. One unhappy city is quite enough. Moving forces towards New Sarai.

Details of Old Sarai below:

Spoiler :

IBT:
Chariot killed by barb spear.

Hannibal settles Thapsus 1 NW of where Beshbalik was.
Turn 212 - 680 AD
Nidaros Catapult -> Axe
Turn 213 - 695 AD
Research down to 40%.
IBT
Sistine Chapel built somewhere.
Turn 214 - 710 A
El Do Sword -> Settler. Kill barb spear.
Turn 215 - 725 AD
Nidaros Axe -> Market. Axe sent to Haitha. Sugar is online. Uppsala loses the red face. Let Nidaros grow again. Khan has landed two cats to attack Aryan. Move southern forces towards Aryan. New Sarai now has 6 LB and a cat.

Research down to 30%.
Turn 216 - 740 AD
Uppsala Catapult -> Sword. Archimedes (GE) born in Nidaros.
IBT:
Our WB's game of hide and seek with hostile vessels comes to an end when a Khan trireme kills it. Khan razes Aryan
Turn 217 - 755 AD
Kill Khan's catapult.
Turn 218 - 770 AD
Our trireme manages to avoid a Ghandhi trireme and head south.
Turn 219 - 785 AD
Metal Casting -> Civil Service. GE will pop Machinery. Start the attack on New Sarai. It is not very successful. Kill 3 LB for the loss of 4 cats, 2 swords and an axe.

Details of Ning-Hsia below:

Spoiler :

IBT:
Ghandhi lands an assault force by Haitha. :eek:

He's obviously learnt from the demise of his last attack as this is rather stronger.

Spoiler :

Turn 220 - 800 AD AD
Finally capture New Sarai for the loss of a sword and two axes and about time too. I really hate it when I lose a 90% attack. :mad:

There is a barb spear in the forest to the W of New Sarai.

I've started a sword towards Haitha but realistically I think it will fall. I haven't changed any of the city builds yet.

Spoiler :

Turn Log:

Spoiler :

EDIT:

Given that WW will get worse because of the units we lost at New Sarai & the likely loss of Haitha it may be worth making peace wth Khan for the time being. This is what he will offer at present:

Spoiler :

Harbourboy · Mar 25, 2007

This game is tougher than I thought. Damn that ungrateful Gandhi.

Htadus · Mar 26, 2007

Sam_Yeager said:
Summary

New Sarai has fallen at the cost of far too many units. Metal Casting learnt. GE born in Nidaros that can pop Machinery. Another cottage by IronSheep. Ghandhi is back for a second bite at our lands.

......

Given that WW will get worse because of the units we lost at New Sarai & the likely loss of Haitha it may be worth making peace wth Khan for the time being. This is what he will offer at present:

Sorry for the loss of many units but we still have a plenty to finish off Ning-H. Murphy's law is always there just when we are doing well. :cry:

Go away Murphy go away. :mad:

It appear the same happend to the other teams too. So no big deal. Good job. :goodjob:

Looked at the save and I do not think that Gem city is a goner if WE get some good RNG and they decided to pillage first. Either ways we should also send a spear and the axe from ElDo with the sword to kill who ever is left with or with out the city. Also (I did not check this) is it possible to get the city to grow next turn with some mm? If that is the case, the city will grow and with some luck if we can hold it, we may be able to rush an Archer there.

BTW I take back my original comment about needing 3 unit in west coast cities. I guess we need more. :blush:

As for Peace. I think we should make one good effort to capture Ning before considering peace. We do not want to allow him to have iron.

We should let Iron-Sheep grow faster instead of runninf it as a scientist farm that way we could use it as a Unit production center when we need it badly.

We should use the GE to learn Machinary sooner than later. We can use the crosbowman against maces and similar units very effectivly.

Final question. Should we hold on the CS and go for Optics now? We may be able to trade with more civs faster and get the Circumnavigation point.

Harbourboy · Mar 26, 2007

I am also keen on circumnavigation and our tech pace will rocket up once we meet more people. On the other hand, it's always good to get your unique unit as soon as possible.

Do we need any more wonders?

What will be our next civic change?

Sam_Yeager · Mar 26, 2007

Htadus said:
Looked at the save and I do not think that Gem city is a goner if WE get some good RNG and they decided to pillage first. Either ways we should also send a spear and the axe from ElDo with the sword to kill who ever is left with or with out the city. Also (I did not check this) is it possible to get the city to grow next turn with some mm? If that is the case, the city will grow and with some luck if we can hold it, we may be able to rush an Archer there.

Sending the spear & the axe as well as the sword would leave just a warrior defending El Do and our gold mines. :nono:

In retrospect I should have sent the spear instead of the sword. The other point is that we don't have a continuous road from El Do so it will take at least a couple of turns before any reinforcements can get there.

I had a very quick check this morning before going to work and there doesn't seem to be a way to mm Haitha to grow next turn

Sam_Yeager · Mar 26, 2007

Htadus said:
Final question. Should we hold on the CS and go for Optics now? We may be able to trade with more civs faster and get the Circumnavigation point.

Harbourboy said:
I am also keen on circumnavigation and our tech pace will rocket up once we meet more people. On the other hand, it's always good to get your unique unit as soon as possible.

Do we need any more wonders?

What will be our next civic change?

CS will take another 16 turns at our current research rate. Optics will take 17 turns although I'm not sure if that includes the time for Machinery. Assuming it doesn't there's an argument to say that getting Bureaucracy and the extra gold in Nidaros will speed up the research of Optics. :dunno:

@Harbourboy - Heroic Epic strikes me as a useful wonder as we're bound to be fighting other civs. We will of course want other wonders to gift to Ghandhi to speed up the ascent to space, assuming he doesn't kill us first.

Next civic change is likely to be Bureaucracy. :lol:

Harbourboy · Mar 26, 2007

I would also like to step back a bit and repeat something The Hawk said a while back:

"Man with flash car but no map just get lost more quickly"

Or something like that. Anyway, what is our current strategy again? I think Civ IV is the sort of game where you need to pursue a particular strategic objective singlemindedly. For example, to win the Liberalism race, you have focus everything on that target. To wipe out another Civ you focus on that. And so on. If you try to do bits and pieces in this game you end up doing nothing well.

So can someone clarify for me what our overriding current strategic objective is?

Jenarie · Mar 26, 2007

Checking in - will look it over thoroughly along with everyone's comments and post thoughts in ~12ish hours. Then will prob wait another day for comments before playing unless at that time it seems like everyone is already on the same page.

markh · Mar 26, 2007

Looks good, Sam. :goodjob:

Pity about Haitha, but we will get it back.

I do not think that our forces will hold, so maybe we should consider to give it to Gandhi without fighting for a few turns, gather some units and take it back then. In the current situation it will be just sacrificing units.

I think CS is a good choice now as we can slowly start building our overseas raiding partly. :viking:

Then we should get ahead to astronomy as fast as possible to use our zerks, otherwise they will lose their advantages. Not sure whether we have a chance a liberalism free tech. I doubt it to be honest.

Jenarie · Mar 26, 2007

Thoughts:

It will take us 8 turns to move our attack force to Ning-hsia. Why not get 10 turn peace treaty with Khan while we move the units. That only delays our attack by three turns. Khan offers meditation, monotheism and horseback riding plus 1gpt. I would like to see if we could get machinery or feudalism instead but didn't want to make the offer before checking here in case he said yes and we'd be stuck with it. Was thinking could send the army the other way but we can't let the capital switch to Ning-hsia since that would almost immediately give it the culture to hook up the iron.

We have the cash to upgrade our El Dorado warrior to a spearman or axeman if needed in an emergency.

We have an axeman and a spearman fortified on the same gold mine? Unless there is an objection will move the spearman toward HGems in hopes they pillage first and we have time to get it there. If not maybe they will be hurt badly enough it can help mop up.

We have a great general and a great engineer sleeping. Do we have plans for these? Why not use the general as a military instructor wherever we plan to build the most troops?

Is this a good time to be building a settler in El Dorado? Maybe I should change this to another spear since Gandhi surprised us with his elephants? I don't really think we have the army to protect the cities we have right now so not keen on settling another.

Not sure we really need to wipe out Khan's last two cities (Old Sarai & Tiflis) - he's caught in the middle of Hannibal now so Hannibal may do it for us and we could join the war whenever it happened to get Hannibal to like us more. Problem with this plan is that Hannibal is pleased with Khan so may never happen. Knowing Khan though he's likely to feel boxed in and declare on Hannibal to attack Thapsus if we don't give him any more likely (weak) targets. Actually I guess better to just get rid of him or he'll resettle all that but now that Hannibal has a city he's likely to do the same so *shrug*.

I was hoping someone would post answering Haurborboy's question about the big picture because I've lost track of plan as well.

Research I won't have to change during my turnset.

Waiting for comments will play tomorrow.

The-Hawk · Mar 26, 2007

Some thoughts:

- I did not look at the save, but if there are only two units, I would not try to defend Haitha. I think the chances of saving the city are small. Even if one of the defenders is a spear, those 'phants with Combat II are going to maul us. More important, the penalty for failure could be huge. If we stream our troops towards Haitha and they get mauled in turn, El Do could be rolled up next. Personally, I would abandon Haitha to save the defenders and accept that he will probably raze it. I think it would be safer to collect our troops in the north rather than let him destroy our units piecemeal.

- I like CS next. In general, I choose civics that provide economic boosts first, and Bureau is one of my favorites.

- I would have voted to continue the war, until I read Jenarie's post. Excellent thought process :goodjob:

. Given the 8 turns to get to Ning, I would take the techs as a great tradeoff for 3 extra turns before we attack.

- markh, you've been a big proponent to moving our civ to a different continent. I wasn't sure I agreed until this last Ghandi attack. He will keep pressuring us with these types of attacks (with superior units due to our tech deficit), and that is a distraction we don't need. More important, that is a distraction for him too. We don't want him to waste time and productivity attacking us. Better we move far away and let him focus on building spaceship parts instead of units. Out of sight, out of mind?

Harbourboy · Mar 26, 2007

I will be fascinated to see how we are going to achieve this emigration. I always struggle to get a foothold on foreign soil. What will be required to make this work? Lots and lots of boats? How much of a struggle is the cultural battle on a new continent when all your cities have to start from zero culture again - when faced with 1,000 year old cultural monstrosities? And aren't the stats showing that the undiscovered civilisations are pretty big and advanced?

I would love to know what different angles the other teams have come up with for this game. The big thing I need to keep reminding myself is that our victory target is so odd. We don't need to be biggest, strongest, most cultural or most diplomatic. Our main objectives are for Gandhi to get into space, and to still be standing when he makes it (doesn't matter if we only have 1 city left by then). Our secondary objective is to do it quickly, but we can't ever lose sight of the fact that our number one goal is to get him into space. This may end up with us doing a suicide Spock-like attack on Gandhi's main rival who is about to launch before him ("the needs of the many Indians outweigh the needs of the few Vikings").

Just my random thoughts.

Htadus · Mar 27, 2007

I think our short term plan has to be survival. Then we have to relocate for all the reasons given previously and more. Gandhi is on his way to becoming numero uno and we better find our own turf elswhere.

I would rather force a mop up situation in Haitha for the reasons of

Not knowing where Gandhi will send his troops next ie ElDo, Upps or New Sarai?.
Combat odds are better with our units defending. If Phant attack our spear will defend and axe will defend against the sword.
Non of our unts station there will be able to do much harm if we have to attack. Attacking spears will find the sword in the other end.
As a matter of fact we will need about 8 units there to have any chance of killing them all in just an attacking point of view.

Here is another option. Promote the warrior as recommended by Jenarie to an axe move one of the spears into ElDo and fortify. Bring the axe and the spear with the sword toward Haitha site. With some RNG luck, even if we loose the city ,our units can close in and finish those units before they heal. If I understand correctly, healing units do not get fortification defense.

I know I was the one who asked for a settler but fully agree with Jenarie that we should build at least one unit, prefer 2, in ElDo now. We have to be able to protect or settlements.

Lets use the GE to learn Machinary unless Kahn is willing to give up Machinary. If so, we can learn Engineering with the GE which we can use right now in the form of a Pikeman.

If we are going to stay with CS for Beuraucracy, we should use the GG as an instructor in Nidaros. Since the biggest boost we are going to get from Beuro is the hammer increase.

I am against going for peace with Khan now. He will not give us any thing worthy if we do not take Ning-H. And when we re DOW again, he will commit suicide before giving us any thing. If he ever connect that iron we better have learned Astro and be ready to move if we want to be compatitive.

BTW. If we can get Machinary from Khan, I still think we may be able to go for Liberalism by learning Engineering and trading it for all the prerequisits and using our GS to speed up learning Education. But most likely Gandhi will get it. If we can get Machinary, we should definately go for optics instead of CS just for the trade value.

Jenarie, see if Hanny will give us any gold. Just ask for a large number and go down. I was recently surprised by 3 pleased civs who I was trading very freely ended up giving me over 1600g in one turn. Even Ceasar who would not trade techs with me. And see if we can do any gpt trades.

markh · Mar 27, 2007

I have not looked at the save, but the WEs with combat 2 and the sword with CR 2 do not seem stopable with the units we have there. The city has no defensive bonus, so I think they will just run over us. If we give the city to him for free he will definitely leave 2 to 3 units there for garrison if he keeps the city what I would believe.

I would take the techs Khan offers for peace. Machinery would be great. What can he do in 8 turns ? We will take Ning Hsia after 10 turns and then he is finished.

@ The Hawk : That was my main thinking about moving. He will be advanced and we definitely want that, but at a later stage he will have superior troops causing us headaches if we stay. Preparing him a nice second core with courthouses etc. he should be able to tech quite fast once we move away. We do not have to win the game, so it does not really matter where we move. Of course I would prefer to crush the biggest in score, but we have to see whether this will be possible after meeting the other civs, therefore I would like to see CS as soon as possible to build zerks. Once we get to astronomy our land force should be ready, so it will just be a matter of building galleons and set our sails.

Sam_Yeager · Mar 27, 2007

Haitha is currently size 1. If Ghandhi attacks and captures it in the next turn then it will be auto razed. If Ghandhi pillages until it grows to size 2 and then captures it he may still decide to raze it. In either of those two cases we will have a fairly powerful force loose in our lands. Although hopefully the two axes and spear in Haitha will inflict some damage on them. In addition the galleys that brought the attack force are heading back, possibly to bring additional forces and/or settlers.

From my point of view I am not necessarily concerned about the loss of Haitha although it's a pain to lose it. I'm more concerned about making sure we destroy this force soonest, before it starts pillaging our improvments, and any other force that Ghandhi may send in the near future. I suggested a temporary peace with Khan because I thought that we might need our current army to help kill off this force. It will also help to reduce WW.

I can live with attacking Ning-hsia as long as we're sure we can take down this force quickly without it. Since I'm not that convinced that this will be the case I would support taking peace with Khan for as much as we can get.

We need to keep a viable economy and science rate before we can realistically talk about relocating elsewhere. Astronomy takes a long time to research. Even just to colonise Khan's lands before Hannibal does it for us will take a fair amount of production. Building multiple galleons will also take a while so we do need to hang onto our current cities for quite a while yet.

@Jenarie - I said in my write up that I had not changed the city builds. That's why they don't seem appropriate at the moment.

Harbourboy · Mar 27, 2007

I think Jenarie's cautious instincts should serve us very well for this situation as minimising risk is probably the watchword for the next 10 turns.

Jenarie · Mar 27, 2007

Sam_Yeager said:
@Jenarie - I said in my write up that I had not changed the city builds. That's why they don't seem appropriate at the moment.

Aye wasn't criticising just wanted to make sure people agreed with what I was thinking before I made any big changes. I've found that I play VERY differently then most of the team so I hesitate to make any change without checking first. I'd hate to do something that seems obvious to me and have the rest of you wonder wtf I was thinking.

I'll play tonight but it will be a few hours before I can start.

SGOTM 04 - Geezers

Deity

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Another Original Geezer

Deity

A and L's dad

Deity

Another Original Geezer

Another Original Geezer

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Deity

Prince

Old Original Geezer

Deity

A and L's dad

Deity

Another Original Geezer

Deity

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