SGOTM 04 - Peanut

[DaviddesJ]

We should certainly trade for IW and use that information in locating our next city. I would take Masonry as the second tech, since we might want to build the marble city soon. (Stone seems too far away, though. And too hard to defend a city down there from Gandhi.)

Building the marble city next (6S 1W of capital) is a reasonable choice, if iron doesn't show up somewhere useful. We can farm the sugar for 4 food, before Calendar.

I don't think we need to connect copper just for barbarians. We can just build chariots to deal with them (good vs axes, and also good for patrolling territory). It's true that we want copper for spearmen if Genghis threatens to attack us. But the main idea should be to be strong enough that he doesn't attack. Building a bunch of chariots is a fine way to boost our power rating, while also controlling barbarians. On the other hand, I wouldn't go so far as giving him gold.

 

[DaviddesJ]

3 - Delhi is now size 9. it build on a plain hill with stone (3 hammers) with the following resources:
2 whales, 2 fish, clams, ivory, gold, gems, corn
I wish we had that spot.

Delhi also has Iron next to it (a worker is currently building a mine there).

 

[klarius]

I don't think we need to connect copper just for barbarians.

Well, but axes are most efficient for generating power. And we want the barb city in the north soon, which is in a decent location. I would rather bring a couple of axes together with a chariot or 2 for that.

On the other hand, I wouldn't go so far as giving him gold.

Any specific reason for that ?

 

[Wotan]

If getting IW is a unanimous opinion couldn't whoever is up do the trade and post info on any iron in our area? That would surely help deciding where to plant the Settler.

Marble town is probably OK but for the simple fact it is a bit exposed to a potentially aggressive Mongol. Are we willing to take the risk of having a difficult time supporting it in case of a war?

I am also in favour of connecting bronze for Axes unless we can connect iron easier. And that would also suggest we build enough to take on the barb city in the north.

 

[a space oddity]

If getting IW is a unanimous opinion couldn't whoever is up do the trade and post info on any iron in our area? That would surely help deciding where to plant the Settler.

I second the motion. (Edit: That would be Steve.)

 

[klarius]

Well, but the second tech to go with IW is not as clear to me .
In 12 turns we have another tech to trade. And we should not hold back, as Genghis has the highest probability to demand tribute and also the highest probability to declare war, if refused.
If we take masonry now, we might be limited to archery and mysticism as trade options, as we don't see the religious techs. If we take mysticism now, we still can get masonry and archery in 12 turns and maybe a religious tech on top of it.

EDIT:
Another option is to trade only for IW and self research the very cheap mysticism before completing metal casting.
The idea here is to stay one more tech away from WFYABTA and at the same time probably get "fair trade" points.
We should soon get an open borders point, so we might be able to get him up to pleased, which will prevent tribute demands. He still can ask for help, but with a much lower probability.

 

[civ_steve]

OK, I'm up and I'll post a 'got-it', although I wont have the save until tonight. I can make the IW trade to locate Iron and report back. If it's our intention to found the Iron site next (assuming there is one), then Masonry could wait until the next trade. OTOH, if Genghis will only trade us a certain # of Techs, perhaps it's better we learn Mysticism ourselves and use that Tech slot for a slightly better Tech. In that case, trade for IW + Masonry, learn Myst first, then MC. (All this has been mentioned - I'm just repeating it to make sure I've got it correct )

 

[DaviddesJ]

I would have no problem with trading for IW+Mysticism instead, and then trying to get Masonry in our next trade for Metal Casting. If we found the marble/sugar/gems city, we'll still need cultural expansion to connect the marble, so that will take a while.

On the other hand, I don't necessarily believe in trading for a bunch of cheap religious techs that we don't particularly need, as they do all count against our trade limit. And this is going to be a long game (space race).

I'm certainly not against hooking up the copper. (And the pigs---why don't we have pigs yet?)

Maybe I just don't understand the idea of giving him gold. It slows our research and the benefit is small (I think). On the other hand, we could easily give him a spare health resource (especially if we connect the pigs!).

 

[klarius]

The cheap religious techs are needed at some later time. Polytheism for literature, if we go that route. Meditation for philosophy->liberalism.
I doubt that we can trade anything good from Genghis for metal casting, so I would like to have at least some value.
I still think we won't hit Genghis' limit before optics. He will just not have enough non monopoly techs to trade to us.
The trade limit with other civs is not influenced before we know them. But as soon as we start trading with other civs, we will reach Genghis' limit (he doesn't need to know our trading partners ) and will never trade with him again. So I would like to get as many techs as possible out of Genghis as long as we are isolated.
And IMO, we don't want to risk the coin flip (50% probability) to rebuke a tribute demand and get into war, so shouldn't delay trading, if we don't have him at pleased.

Why does giving away a gold resource cost us research .
We have 2, soon 3, so our happiness is not influenced. The tile value is not influenced by trading resources.

 

[DaviddesJ]

The cheap religious techs are needed at some later time. Polytheism for literature, if we go that route. Meditation for philosophy->liberalism.

Of course. But we can research them ourselves in 1 turn each, much later in the game. And save our trade limit for late-game techs that are much much more expensive.

The trade limit with other civs is not influenced before we know them.

I didn't know that. If that's true, then certainly, we should feel free to trade for cheap techs, before Optics. We probably won't keep Genghis alive until the late game, anyway.

And IMO, we don't want to risk the coin flip (50% probability) to rebuke a tribute demand and get into war, so shouldn't delay trading, if we don't have him at pleased.

I wouldn't refuse anything he demands. It's not a big cost for us to give him techs for nothing. But I agree that getting IW is definitely worth it.

Why does giving away a gold resource cost us research .

Never mind, I didn't understand what you were suggesting. Sure, we could give him gold. Or a health resource.

 

[civ_steve]

OK. Traded Alpha to Genghis for IW and Masonry. There are 2 Iron sources, one close to the Barb city to the north, and one in the far SE corner near Genghis. I'm attaching screenshots of both.

Perhaps Barb city should be razed, and new city founded one space to the West, to allow Iron, corn, Sheep within fat cross.

Or we could keep Barb city, and found new city on river between Clams and Iron, and get both with expansion.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Neither iron seems conveniently placed. I'd just go ahead with connecting up the copper, and found the next city in the 2 sugar/gems/marble spot.

Eventually, razing the barb city and rebuilding 1W makes sense to me. I hate to raze cities, I keep them when I can, but in this case the advantage seems quite substantial. I don't like building a city 2W of iron, and relying on the clams as a food source, because they will be hard to defend from Gandhi.

 

[klarius]

I also think that we shouldn't do anything about the iron now. It's not that urgent as we have copper.
I rather think not to raze the barb city, but build another city eventually 2 west of the iron.
I'm not sure about the marble city location. Sure that gets the most resources eventually, but it's one tile off coast and doesn't give us much before culture expansion.

We still didn't discuss, if we want wonders soon and our research path after metal casting. If we want GLib soon (literature after MC), we need marble w/o culture expansion. We also want then math soon for chops.
If we don't go for GLib, we should bee line for Optics IMO (machinery or compass ?). There's then still the question, if we want a scientist light bulb for that (I rather think not, but still want a scientist for an academy soon).

 

[DaviddesJ]

The locations that give marble immediately without expansion, are terrible in the long term. I don't think it's that important to get marble right away. We still have time for building the GL.

I also like putting the city on the hill, with fresh water. However, a second choice would be to build 1S of gems, which still gets both sugar and the marble in the borders, eventually.

But building on the river means that we can work the sugar farm for 4F immediately, which will make it faster to get the border expansion.

 

[klarius]

Well, the sugar farm needs 13 worker turns, so not quite immediate and 4 food is not that much. And not settling on coast means we will need quite a few roads to connect the city.
One south of the gems is interesting for getting the gems into play immediately (also not quite - 15 worker turns including road) and by that helping our first 2 cities.
The city also has 2 grassland hills w/o the need for more jungle to hack.

I wouldn't call the site 2s of the gems terrible in the long run. It's coastal and can get a decent production pretty fast.

But the question is really do we need marble soon. Otherwise we could also think to build somewhere else in the jungle for gems. Maybe in range of the Nidaros corn to get it really quick up to speed.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Well, the sugar farm needs 13 worker turns, so not quite immediate and 4 food is not that much. And not settling on coast means we will need quite a few roads to connect the city.

I think, as long as we have Open Borders with Genghis, we have a trade route to our capital along the river and coast. We may need to explore the remaining tiles inside Genghis's lands, but we want to do that anyway.

We also get to work the sugar for 3f as soon as we clear the jungle, then it increases to 4f when we build the farm. Any tile we work requires time to improve.

But the question is really do we need marble soon. Otherwise we could also think to build somewhere else in the jungle for gems. Maybe in range of the Nidaros corn to get it really quick up to speed.

But the thing is, if we want marble in the medium term, but not soon, we have to either (1) put a city near it now, or (2) build right next to it, later. The advantage of putting down the marble city now is that we can put it in the best spot, and we have time to build it up for cultural expansion. If we wait and put a subsequent city in the same spot, then our access to marble will be really late.

I also like the fact that the marble spot is on the route from Genghis to us. So, if war does break out, we can defend it. If we build off to the southwest, we're going to have to defend on multiple fronts.

That said, if we want to ignore marble for now, then settling 3SW of Nidaros, with 2 sugar, 2 gems, spices, and (shared) corn, is certainly a fine site.

 

[klarius]

Well, after many questions and suggestions, I made up my mind what I think my strategy would be:
No wonders, no marble.
Get as many gems as possible and bee line optics to get some decent trading partners ASAP.
Trading post and forge in capital as soon as feasible (w/o neglecting military), then grow and have 2 scientists.

 

[civ_steve]

Does that resolve the GS question as well? Use for Optics? Or do you still want the Academy?

 

[klarius]

Well, thinking long term I still think academy (in fact at least 2 to give to Gandhi later) is better.
The bee line is meant to avoid researching techs we can later trade for, not to be necessarily the fastest possible.
We also need math first, if we want to light bulb optics. If we can trade that from Genghis, we can rethink.
But the "no wonder" was also meant as: no urgent need for math and don't deviate from the direct path to optics.

If this is even remotely close to the best research strategy, I have no idea .
But my experience in SGs is that any clear strategy is better than just let every player pull it in different directions.

 

[civ_steve]

I agree that the earlier we make off-continent contacts, the faster we can gain control and take advantage of world wide Tech Trading, and I'm all for letting the AI research the 'filler' Techs while we push along the long path. I'm playing my set now.