SGOTM 04 - Peanut

civ_steve · Mar 8, 2007

Start of Log

OK, trade Alpha to Genghis for IW + Masonry

Save, and discuss ... Resume

Pop Granary at Nidaros for 2 pop, just before Growth next turn. Oops, forgot about food requirement for growth going down with less pop, so we will grow anyway.

Decide to send Settler towards Gem location to the West; move Chariot to support

Worker starts to build Road to Copper

Turn 1 - 1000 BC
Nidaros finishes Granary, next a Barracks
Adjust for fastest Growth

(IBT list of strongest Civs; Genghis is 3rd, Ghandi 4th, we are 7th - not last!)

Turn 2 - 985 BC
Uppsala founded on River adjacent to 2 Gems; starts on Granary

(IBT Genghis demands Gold - we give Gold)

Turn 3 - 970 BC
Groundnuthill builds Chariot - off to bust Fog; next a Trading Post
Switch to Mysticism, 3 turns

Turn 4 - 955 BC
Nidaros' borders expand; it can now use the Wheat

(IBT Genghis converts to Hinduism)

Turn 5 - 940 BC
WB sees Genghis city where 2nd Iron is (to the SE)

Turn 6 - 925 BC
Worker starts Mining Copper

Turn 7 - 910 BC
We learn Mysticism; Genghis has Meditation and Archery; Ghandi also has Polytheism
Set back to MC; will run at 0 for 1 turns
Nidaros is size4; MM to use 3 Gold; switch Wheat to Uppsala

Turn 8 - 895 BC
Send Gold Worker off to connect Uppsala
Nidaros finishes Barracks, next Chariot
Set Research to 100%; MC in 9

Turn 9 - 880 BC
Groundnuthill is size 6, with 1 Unhappy

Turn 10 - 865 BC
Chariot sees Barb Archer in the Open, at 94% we barely win
Will retreat to capital to heal, and use next Chariot for Northern Fog bust

Turn 11 - 850 BC
Groundnuthill builds Trading Post; next a Chariot

Turn 12 - 835 BC
Groundnuthill is now 6 Happy citizens; work an extra Cottage
Worker has connected Copper; next help to connect Uppsala
realize I had hit Mining instead of Road for 2nd Worker; correct that

(IBT Oracle is finished in a far off land)

Turn 13 - 820 BC
Groundnuthill finishes Chariot, next an Axe
Send Chariot to bust fog to the North

(IBT Gandhi adopts Hereditary Rule
See a Mongol Archer to the South near our Fog line)

Turn 14 - 805 BC
Nidaros finishes Chariot, next a Spearman

Turn 15 - 790 BC
One wandering WB has returned to Groundnuthill

Turn 16 - 775 BC
We learn MC, set to Machinery next, but don't change much else
I'm sure we'll have lots to discuss

Save and upload

end of log

Groundnuthill can probably switch to a Forge, grow to size8, and about that time pop-rush for 4 pops.

Nidaros has been working 3 gold, but its unhappiness has worn off; probably set it to Grow now.

2 Workers are working on connecting Uppsala and the 2 Gems.

We can also go after the Barb in the North fairly soon; and/or we might want to found near the Sugar/marble/Gem spot as Genghis is feeling around with an Archer there right now.

Spoiler :

775 BC Save

DaviddesJ · Mar 8, 2007

Why isn't the corn farmed? That was the whole point of putting Uppsala there, should certainly have been the highest priority as soon as cultural expansion permitted.

civ_steve · Mar 9, 2007

I was focused on connecting Uppsala and then making Gems available; forgot that we get +2 food with farmed Wheat. (I was thinking that clearing a Gem would provide +1 food and commerce and thinking the farmed Wheat gained +1 food ...)

Regardless, we can Farm the Wheat in 4 turns with the two Workers; a Farm would have just finished this last turn if neither Road had been built.

Roster Status:

a space oddity - On Deck
Wotan
malekithe
klarius
MailMan
civ_steve - Just Played
ainwood <-- You're Up!!

DaviddesJ · Mar 9, 2007

It's corn, but the yield is the same as wheat.

Even if it were rice (so farming it were only +1 food), you still should do that first, because you want to work that tile, if you're only working one tile, not the gems. The gems should come after growth. (In fact, I'd probably work a farmed sugar as the second tile, and gems even after that. Although mining the gems is important for the happiness bonus to our other cities, so that might take priority.)

DaviddesJ · Mar 9, 2007

Genghis is offering to trade us sheep, so we should cancel the gold giveaway, and trade it for sheep instead.

klarius · Mar 9, 2007

My thoughts:
Switch GroundnutHill to Forge immediately and rush in 2 turns. I would MM away from the hill to coast for these turns to have more food in the box for regrow.
I think Nidaros should also (hand-) build a forge next.

I would trade Genghis metal casting for archery and meditation. It's a terrible deal, but should get Genghis up to pleased for fair deal. We can then even try to get the dirt cheap priesthood for free next turn, by just asking for it (swallow your pride).
These techs are not important currently, but we should stay in line there to see what else they get (especially Genghis might also get monarchy and trade). And we definitely don't want to trade these techs from our real trading partners we meet (hopefully) after optics.
That would bring us to 6 techs got for WFYABTA, but one or two should already be forgotten (5% chance to forget one every turn). So still 2-4 to go and not much chance that he will have more than one to trade soon.
We can now also wait a little with trading as Genghis has demanded tribute already and will not do it again for 36 turns (50 turns from the demand). But really, what do we expect him to get and trade to us ?
He will have monarchy at some time, which we can't see. He will get HBR at some time, but probably be unwilling to share. He might get math, but I doubt that this will be soon enough (and Gandhi needs also to have it for him to trade) that it warrants to wait. It's as well possible that he heads down monarchy->feudalism and we don't get to see any new tech from him.
If you don't want to give metal casting this cheap, we should research compass now and trade with that. It's a little cheaper than MC and we need this also (the chance to trade for it is low in this setup).

We can cancel gold to Genghis now and either trade it for sheep or gift it to him for another 10 turns.
EDIT: I'm for gifting as we don't need sheep in the next 10 turns and gifting resources gives also a few points in one of the counters towards fair trade (but only on the turn it's done - every gift should be canceled after 10 turns).

Some more, definitely get the corn farmed soon. Because the worker double move to the jungle is already done, I would now let both do a road and then both do the farm. But then split them and let them cut different jungles (1 gem - 1 sugar). We definitely are pretty short on worker turns and need another one soon, but currently have other projects everywhere.

klarius · Mar 9, 2007

Another idea:
Genghis will now also go to war with Gandhi on top of the MC for meditation and archery deal.
I'm not sure what that will do, but there would be the chance that Gandhi gives him a monopoly tech in the peace treaty that should follow at some time.
I think there's no chance that much happens in this war and Gandhi is in war mode anyway, so another war shouldn't distract him more from the spaceship.
BTW at some time Gandhi will try to invade us. Probably not much coming, but still I would like to have a unit at least on the gold hill NW of Nidaros. This will prevent a surprise landing on that hill, zooming out of Bombay.

Another small point. I don't see any use for the work boat down near Mongolia anytime soon. We are paying a gold coin unit cost, so get rid of it. We can get it into Mongolian waters and just gift it to Genghis. Or just disband it. But don't move it back to the capital. There is already a spare work boat there and no resources we can net anytime soon. Only use to keep it would be if we intend to settle a town on the west coast soon (not a bad idea overall, but will need some time). Then it should go there.

Still something: Get a chariot to explore Genghis land. Or even build a scout for that (which later could hop on our first caravel).

klarius · Mar 10, 2007

Well, two New Zealand evenings gone w/o any news from Ainwood.

civ_steve · Mar 10, 2007

Typically we'll give the next player an exclusive 24 hours to post a 'got-it'. After the 24 hours is up, the player on deck can claim the turn set by posting a 'got-it', and so on in roughtly 24 hours increments. I know we're all busy and I think its best for team participation to get all players as many turnsets as possible, so even if you pass your turn or get skipped, I still try to get the player in for a turnset later.

So let's assume ainwood is skipping for now. a space oddity is UP!

ainwood · Mar 10, 2007

OK - "Got It". I'll play later today.

civ_steve · Mar 10, 2007

Alright!

space is On Deck again.

ainwood · Mar 11, 2007

Ok - my thoughts (bear with me - I'm a ~~bit~~ lot behind in this game....

Research
We are going for machinery, but need to drop the rate to at least 80% to stop going broke. I plan on dropping it to zero for a few turns (+30/turn). We have 0/1569 invested, and currently at 100% we gain 44 bpt at -6 gpt. I suggest about 7 or 8 turns at no research, which will allow us to ramp back to 100%. Any objections?

Diplomacy
I presume we want to end the war with Gandhi at some point? I will maintain it as a phony war, but if he offers peace, what are we prepared to give up for it?

Cities:
Upsala
I'll leave it to grow. Emphasise food, and continue towards a granary. Don't think it will be popable in the next 10 turns.

Nidaros
Agree forge next. I won't pop anything, but I will emphasis food to try and grow it (at the expense of the gold). I figure getting the hamlet to a village (+2 cpt) is worthwhile.

Is the corn for uppsala or nidaros? I will prioritise it, but was thinking of using it for Nidaros to grow faster, and thus maximise commerce / science. Or do you want to use it to allow uppsala to pop a granary faster?

Groundnuthill
With the unhappiness, I agree on maximising food, and popping a forge. Then what? I am thinking spear, or perhaps a worker.

More later - going to cook dinner now.

DaviddesJ · Mar 11, 2007

Peace with Gandhi is not allowed.

I don't understand running at 0% to accumulate 100s of gold. Just run at 80% if that's what is possible.

ainwood · Mar 11, 2007

DaviddesJ said:
Peace with Gandhi is not allowed.

Guess I should read the instructions....

civ_steve · Mar 11, 2007

Research
We are going for machinery, ...

I set it to Machinery after finishing Metal Casting, but it can be easily switched. Near term objective is Optics. klarius has suggested we learn Compass next so we have a less expensive Tech to trade to Genghis for his Archery and Priesthood. This would save Metal Casting for a more expensive Tech, possibly. Another option is to trade MC now for Genghis' Techs, and a DOW against India; this might open the door for Gandhi to gift one of his Techs to Genghis as part of a peace treaty.

Uppsala: probably finish the road in the Jungle to connect it, Irrigate the Corn, then develop the Gems spaces. Granary, pop when possible, maybe Forge after, then Library.

Nidaros: grow and build Forge next

Groundnuthill: build Forge next; should be able to pop it shortly after reaching size8. Next, probably some military units to tend to the Barb city up North. Perhaps time a Settler to pop 15 turns after the Forge; then we should have the Forces to raze the Barb city, and a Settler to resettle it 1 space West (assuming that is the concensus).

klarius has also suggested we dump the WorkBoat down near Genghis; either gift it to him or disband it.

DaviddesJ has pointed out that Genghis will trade us Sheep, so cancel the gift of Gold, then trade the Gold for the Sheep. This definitely helps Nidaros which needs more health points.

Good Luck, ainwood!

ainwood · Mar 11, 2007

Pre-Flight.

Cancel gold gift to genghis & change to gold-for-sheep.
Decide NOT to trade MC for techs + war. We don't need his techs just now, and any peace deal is a while off. AFAIK (and I may be wrong), why would gandhi give-up a monopoly tech for peace? That would require him to be getting his butt kicked, and we don't want that to happen.

Change research to compass, dropping research to 80%.

MM uppsala not to work corn this turn. Still grows in one, but Nidaros can gain some food (I aim to grow this).

Move chariot out of Nidaros to gold hill. Think that's a good idea.

Switch Groundnuthill to forge, and move to work coast. Growth looks OK (two turns), and I'll trust the klarius has the hammers correct!

Turn 1: 760 BC:
Workers start road.
Uppsala grows, so I give it the corn back.
I continue to maximise food in Nidaros - will grow in 3.

Turn 2: 745BC:
GroundNutHill grows, and I pop the forge. It will grow again in 2 (currently 6 happy, 5 unhappy)
Gift the workboat to Genghis. No change in relations - still cautious at +3.
Workers have finished road. Only one gets to move this turn, so he starts the farm. Once we get to civil service, we need to remember to spread irrigation...

Turn 3: 730BC:
Forge completes in GnH
Genghis adopts hereditory rule! He must have monarchy, but looks like we can't get it for a long time.

mm Nidaros for more gold & hammers, but still grows next turn.
Forge gives us an extra happy face in GnH. Will grow next turn. Switch to a worker for a turn to use the overflow.

Turn 4: 715 BC:
Barb warriors appear in the SE.
Nidaros grows to size 5. We're at the happiness cap, so I set it back to stagnant, working all the gold (at least until corn is farmed, or grassland cottaged).
GnH back to axeman to let city grow.
Move warrior to forest, to entice barbs to attack.

Turn 5: 700BC:
Barbs don't attack. Move back to hill, and see they're being chased by Genghis.

Turn 6: 685 BC:
Genghis despatches barb warrior. But I see he has a stack to the south, incl. a settler. This appears to be headed to settle by the marble / gems / sugar.
Genghis has Gandhi as his "worst enemy - can't be trusted".
Gandhi's power is skyrocketting! I consider getting genghis to war by demanding it. He respond "not on my watch"

-1 hit for that.....
Farm completes. One Worker goes to work gems.

Turn 7: 670 BC:
Barb spears appear in South. Not sure what's happened to mongolian settler though!
GnH grows, and is at its cap. Will complete axeman next turn, then I'll get the worker finished.
Other worker off to sugar.

Turn 8: 655BC:
Nidaros spear +> Forge.
GnH Axe +> worker.
The settler that I lost? Well, it was on the tile with our warrior. Genghis has now settled on the hill by the river. Its Old Sarai.
Teh barb spear lost to genghis' archer.
new axe sent towards nidaros for defense, or, later attack on barb city.

Turn 9: 640 BC:
Genghis will now trade polytheism. We can get that, archery, meditation and war with gandhi for MC. This can wait a turn, so I suggest we ahve some more discussion at the end of the turnset.

Turn 10: 625 BC:
We are at 0 gold, -1GPT. Will reduce to 80% (+4GPT), giving compass in 6 turns.
Uppsala: Grows next turn to size 3, building a granary (which costs 2 pop, so it will be a while before we can pop it). Worker cutting jungle on gems has 3 turns left. The one cutting on the sugar has 4.
Nidaros is at its happiness cap, stagnating. It is building a forge, but that can't be popped. Need to time it so that when gems are available, its ready to grow - will mean working non-improved food tiles - perhaps we can give it the corn for a while, and get the other grassland tile cottaged by the worker being built in GnH.
GnH is building a worker that completes next turn. Either an axeman or settler would be a good option.

I note that now that Genghis has founded old sarai, the risk of barbs from the south is diminished. We can leave the chariot where it is, and use the warrior for exploration.

Spoiler :

>> THE SAVE <<

klarius · Mar 12, 2007

Well, demanding something from a somebody who has a lot more power isn't such a smart move :smoke:

.
We can cancel gold again and get wine for it.

I would go after the barb city in the north now. Note we will also get a few coins from that to fuel our research.

Trading:
Genghis would do his 3 techs for MC.
Or war with Gandhi and one tech.
We probably lost the chance to trade very favorable for him and then get priesthood for free as a gift.

I would wait now for compass, swing a deal with that. Then quickly self research priesthood (should be only 2 turns with both prerequisites).

ainwood · Mar 12, 2007

klarius said:
Well, demanding something from a somebody who has a lot more power isn't such a smart move .

Yeah, but I figured a -1 hit (at worst) was acceptable, and it was for his "worst enemy" (even though their relations aren't bad).

DaviddesJ · Mar 12, 2007

ainwood said:
Yeah, but I figured a -1 hit (at worst) was acceptable, and it was for his "worst enemy" (even though their relations aren't bad).

This makes no difference, he's not going to do what you demand, it just gets you negative modifiers.

klarius · Mar 12, 2007

Ok, a bit game mechanic:
Making a demand will always increment the MADE_DEMAND counter. Except for Gandhi who ignores it (which doesn't help in this game), every civ will give a permanent negative of 1 or 2 per count (so not at most -1

).
A demand will always be rejected, when the civ has more than 4/3 of the power of the demanding civ.
It will always be rejected if there was a recent demand.
Finally it will be rejected if it is too expensive. Everything has a price tag - war is never free no matter how the attitude is.
The price was probably not the problem, as we should be eligible to get a few hundred gold worth as demand or gift (depends on how long you know the people and relative power - every gift or accepted demand is subtracted).
But note the price to go to war has nothing to do with worst enemy, but with attitude (and size and power of the target). So e.g. annoyed is 1.5 times more expensive as furious.

What is really bad is that now the MADE_DEMAND_RECENT memory is set. We cannot get a gift while this is up, even if we get him up to pleased (which we for sure could by trading with a loss for us, or trading for him going to war). And we cannot really know when it gets down again as this is again a random 5% per turn thing.

SGOTM 04 - Peanut

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