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SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jul 22, 2007.

  1. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 5 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

    The Game
    You are Temujin, Leader of the Mongolian Hordes. You have tired of fighting the Barbarians, and so this time you have decided to join them instead. You will win a glorious victory in this Monarch game, of course, but you are teamed with the Barbarians, and you have to adapt to Barbarian assets and liabilities:

    • You have no starting techs.
    • The barbs are your friends, and are fighting on your team.
    • You will benefit from the Barbarian capability to explore the world in animal and human form.
    • You can research, but you will also learn techs that the Barbarians learn.
    • .... And you start off at war with everyone on the planet except the Barbarians. You can make peace with anyone.

    The Objective
    This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, and the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the earliest victory date in the game.

    Versions
    This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, using special HoF Mod 1.74.SGOTM5.

    Schedule
    Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of July 25.

    I propose that you aim to complete this game in three months, that is by the end of October 2007.

    Starting Position
    Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



    Map Parameters
    Playable Leader/Civ - Temujin of Mongolia
    Rivals - 7: China, Japan, India, Arabia, Spain, Persia and Greece
    World size - Standard
    Difficulty - Monarch
    Landform - Special, sort of a fractal archipelago
    Environment - Temperate climate, medium sea level
    Game Speed - Epic
    AI Aggression - Normal
    Barbarians - Raging, and teamed with the Mongols
    Permanent Alliances - Not Enabled
    City Razing - Enabled

    Notes
    • Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
    • Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The number of awards will depend on the number of teams.
    • All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve victories in the least turns.
    • All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.
    Please enjoy the game :)
     
  2. Conquistador 63

    Conquistador 63 Gypsy King

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    Gypsy King Conquistador 63 is reporting for duty!
    Welcome aboard hellwitch, Thrallia & Lehm! I hope we'll have a lot of fun along our veterans Ronnie1, da_Vinci, Scout214 & g_storrow while wreaking havoc on those enemy cities, as uncivilized barbarians are supposed to! :lol:
     
  3. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    R1 checking in! Ditto what he said.
     
  4. Thrallia

    Thrallia Prodigal Staffer GOTM Staff

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    Checking in...I almost got myself disqualified already! I started to click on the geezers thread....this will take some getting used to!

    As an aside...for the last two SGOTMs, I was the starting player for the Geezers, but considering I have no idea what to really expect from the beginning of this game, and since I don't think I'll have time to play on Wednesday, I'd prefer not to go first this time ;)
     
  5. hellwitch

    hellwitch Chieftain

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    i'm here too.:)
     
  6. g_storrow

    g_storrow Chieftain

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    hello to everyone.
     
  7. Lehm

    Lehm Gypsy Jester

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    hello everybody. Lehm is checking in and ready for discussions...
     
  8. da_Vinci

    da_Vinci Gypsy Prince

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    Welcome all! Let's get this (discussion) party started!

    First of all, is everyone clear about the new patches, which automatially install with BtS, and the need for a dual install to play this and finish SGOTM 04? I put a post in our 04 thread, and here is a link to the details:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232115

    Now, about the new game.

    Fastest victory of any type. Does anyone doubt that conquest is the way to go? Or maybe domination? In the XOTM, one of these two is almost always fastest, right? In SGOTM 03, for example, every diplo was faster than any space, IIRC. So it pays to chose the right victory condition.

    What are the pros and cons of barb allies?

    Cons:

    1. No starting techs

    2. Starting war with all will yield early diplo negmods ... harder to trade even after peace. Nice that we just had an always war WOTM to get a sense of this.

    3. Did I forget any?

    Pros:

    1. No attacks on us by barbs!

    2. Barbs are the "small library" ... we get any tech that most (anyone sure how many?) civs know, as that is how the barbs get them. Makes beelining tech more feasible, as the barbs can backfill the old ones.

    3. Worldwide recon! We will see most of the map very fast ... which means we will have relations with all civs very rapidly! Automatic scouting!

    4. A source of troops, but not under out control.

    So ... how do we optimize these advantages?

    1. Diplomatic plan ... we will know all civs when the first animals spawn. Well before the other civs know each other. Maybe we make peace with those who are tolerant, stay at war with those who are annoyed at +1 or so. Beeline Alphabet to trade with any we can get cautious or better with, go kill the others first (if they are close). Maintaining wars with those we can't trade with anyway may be good to avoid diplo negmods having to redeclare?

    2. Religion plan ... maybe we ignore religion.

    3. Military plan ... emphasize horse, as their mobility may allow them to get to areas where Barbs are operating, and work in conjunction with them.

    Do we want to own cities, or do we want barbs to own them? I think if close to us, we want it, if far from us, barbs owning might be an alternative to razing if barbs are attacking as well.

    Note that if barb cities spawn near us, we can't capture them, so we might need to fogbust key resources that we want so that barb cities don't spawn there.

    Will we want to have some barb breeding grounds ... areas of the map that are not fogbusted so that the barb armies can spawn there?

    And if a barb city spawns near a distant civ ... maybe we make peace with them so that they don't capture the barb city? If a near civ, we could reinforce the barb city if necessary. Or if we want the city, let the enemy take it and we take it back!

    This should be fascinating stuff!

    dV
     
  9. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    Did anyone else play around with the test map I made a while back.

    I was able to make peace after some time with a few of the "nicer" leaders. Tech trading did not ever happen IIRC. I could not get them friendly enough, and I did not want to trade Astronomy when I got it.

    I beelined to Optics for the Circumnav bonus on the watery map only to find out I could not get it as a "Barb".

    I agree with dV that Conquest will probably be the fastest route, but I would love to hear some arguments "For" the other victory conditions if someone wants to present them.
     
  10. da_Vinci

    da_Vinci Gypsy Prince

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    I have noticed that different leaders have different thresholds for cautious, annoyed, etc. Anyone have a list of this (C63 always seems to be able to find such stuff :goodjob: )?

    @ R1: Did the other AI war with each other? Or did Mutual Struggle make them too friendly with each other? If two AI go to war, we could join one to get MMS points and later do trading with that one.

    Did you get a sense in your game of whether we fogbust the barbs, as we are on their team. If only other teams fogbust the barbs, is that good or bad for us?

    Can we gift troops to the barbs? Might be a way for us to lessen expenses ... esp if we need to defend barb cites ... gift the archers Lbows to the barbs!

    If the barbs can capture and hold territory, then maybe dom will be faster than conquest on a water map? If a small number of land masses will make the dom land limit, just taking those might be the fastest route to a win.

    dV
     
  11. da_Vinci

    da_Vinci Gypsy Prince

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    I think you will have to change the line under you avatar to someting other than "Youngest Geezer"! :lol:

    How about "Gypsy Knave"? :lol: ;)

    dV
     
  12. Conquistador 63

    Conquistador 63 Gypsy King

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    Fortunately, we already know our rivals, from the starting screenshot. This allows us to plan ahead a little, if we think getting peace with the AI's is something we want.
    . All leaders will trade tech (within limits) if we get cautious or above - but as you all might already know, Toku needs to be pleased with us.
    . Izzy & Toku start at -1 with us in normal games (of course in this one we have to add modifiers for being at war). They are known to be grumpy, so those are pretty much lost causes when it comes to trading.
    . Alex can be put in the same bag as above. He and Sal start at 0, but IMHO he is the fiercest warmonger of the pack and a worthless trader in general.
    . Asoka, Cyrus and Qin start at +1. When it comes to tech trading, Asoka, Cyrus & Sal have higher WFTYABTA limits (10 techs). Maybe we can consider (temporary:mischief:) peace with these guys in the long term.

    In any case, I wouldn't bother getting peace soon, or at least as long as our barb friends can keep spawning in our enemies' islands. Considering fair distribution of land and resources (not necessarily true), the AIs with early UUs might have better chances against the raging barbs. Not sure if there is any strategic implication of this, though. :crazyeye:

    If anyone is willing to supply a test map with the new patch/mod, I'd be glad to try it.

    Another suggestion, for those with the spare time (and patience ;) ), is to read the thread on a similar SG pointed out in the sign-up or pre-game discussion thread. I haven't been there, but I'm willing to go when I find the time.
     
  13. Thrallia

    Thrallia Prodigal Staffer GOTM Staff

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    That's a possibility, but I think I prefer Gypsy Squire or Gypsy Knight to that, if we are discussing rank ;)

    No need for me ;) I'm not on your SGOTM4 team...that's actually another reason why I shouldn't go first, if we are going to actually start on Wednesday(which isn't necessarily a given, since the start is very important and we have limited time to prepare for it), because I'm not going to install BtS until after I finish WOTM11.

    Whether conquest is the way to go will depend on the extent to which the map is modified. I fully expect that Astro will be required unless we get lucky and our barbs destroy anyone that would have required it...otherwise there's a lot less selection than it would seem.

    If Astro is required, then Diplo might be almost as fast as Conquest and/or Domination would be...since the UN is only 3-4 techs removed from Astro, and since all but Radio are easily lightbulbed by Scientists.

    Con:

    3. No source of easy cities by attacking the barbs ;)

    Question: Do barbs require metal for axes/swords? If not, do we require metal still?

    We know them already, and I'd say Izzy, Toku, and Alex are lost causes already. Asoka, Qin, and Cyrus we should be able to peace fairly easily though, and Saladin tends to be a wildcard.

    Perhaps...religion would be a good card to pull out of our sleeves down the road, should we decide to attempt a diplo victory, but rather than founding one, I think it'd be best to try to get the most predominant religion into at least 1 of our cities, then use it if needed down the road as a state religion.

    I'd suggest we not bother scouting more than 7-8 tiles from Karakorum at first, and that only to look for new city sites. The more fog, the more barbs will spawn...and since we know everyone, and will quickly know where everyone is, thanks to the barbs, there's no reason to waste all that fog :evil:

    Additionally, since the barbs will share any tech we research with us, I'd recommend we push hard for military techs early, in order to get the barbs upgraded as fast as possible, while they are still a major, relevant force in the world. For this, I'd recommend we attempt to get Maces as early as possible, definitely pre-1AD.

    I think we want to own close cities, and let the barbs control the distant ones...do barb population points count toward a domination/diplo victory for us? How about their 'cultural' boundaries?

    We definitely want some foggy areas around our enemies...perhaps by razing cities when we begin any overseas invasions.

    Note that this isn't Warlords, which means we can't take any vassals...because of that, conquest will be a more difficult victory condition than we're generally used to it being.
     
  14. Thrallia

    Thrallia Prodigal Staffer GOTM Staff

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    We had the same analysis for our opponents...I hadn't looked at your post yet when I responded to dV.

    Izzy and Toku will be at -4 with us...that means death for them :devil:

    Alex is impossible to deal with, so he's gone also.

    I agree that Asoka, Cyrus, and Qin pose the best chance of being helpful for us on this game, they'll be at -2 with us, and will still tech trade with us at that happiness level...and if we decide not to go Conquest, it will be much easier to overcome that -3 war declaration for their votes than it would be with anyone else.

    I have no idea how to deal with Saladin...he has multiple personalities, I swear...sometimes he's impossible to deal with, other times he's the best person to have around.

    I wouldn't bother with peace for awhile either, as with raging barbs on Monarch they should be able to do a decent amount of damage to our enemies...perhaps even take one of them out for us!

    As far as the AI UU's are concerned...only Alex has a UU early enough that it might help him...and if we can get the barbs upgraded to axes fast enough, then his UU will only quicken his downfall :)

    I can't do a new map with the mod until I finish WOTM11, but once I do, I could set up a basic game, pick the AIs, but I don't know enough about worldbuilder to be able to set up our initial position from the screenshot.

    As for the similar SG...it was a Civ3 SG, and because of that, I haven't gone there...I'm not sure it would hold much bearing for a Civ4 game because of the innate differences in the combat systems.
     
  15. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    I'll see if I can get to a new test map after I get my dual install completed. That won't be or a day or two, so if someone can get to it first feel free.

    @ Thrallia, Do you really think we have a shot at a Diplo win? Are you thinking more of a back door fight our way to enough votes? Or, do you think we can do it through more peaceful means?
     
  16. Thrallia

    Thrallia Prodigal Staffer GOTM Staff

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    If we truly need to tech to Astro anyway(as I believe we will...modified by Gyathaar Fractal Archi on medium sea level), why not see if Diplo would be feasible?

    Using religion/civics bonuses and keeping Asoka/Cyrus/Qin alive, it shouldn't be hard to win a diplo via peaceful means...after all, we've got two pretty good diplo players in here ;)

    In order to build the UN, we need Astro>Sci Meth>Physics>Electricity>Radio>Mass Media...all of which can be lightbulbed with GS except for Radio(lightbulbable with a GA)...thanks to the random tech bonuses of the barbs, we won't really have need to get backfill techs, so starting out with the early military techs(up through Maces) then converting to a Mass Media beeline shouldn't take too long.

    I'd contend that if we can plan out our Great People well enough, we could have the required Great People to lightbulb each of those techs, research Mass Media, rush the UN, and hold some votes faster than we could research Astro, build/upgrade enough galleons, and then conquer an unknown number of overseas empires.

    If barbarian population is included with ours for the purposes of Diplo wins, then a backdoor would be possible, especially since we could leave any long-distance cities in the hands of the barbs-preventing them from dropping our science rate.
     
  17. Thrallia

    Thrallia Prodigal Staffer GOTM Staff

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    Also, dV, how's WOTM11 going? I really wouldn't mind scrapping it entirely and moving on to the next XOTMs...I'm picking up BtS tomorrow before I go to work.
     
  18. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

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    WOTM 11 was a fun one for me! I played the challenger start and was successful with my strategy, I doubt I'm anywhere near a medal though.

    We get science points for all techs that the AI's know each turn. I had trouble with my science rate in my practice game, and was still first to Astronomy. With better MM towards science, I'm sure we could get there even quicker. My concern is more in getting enough AI's to +12 or whatever we need to get a yea vote! The Diplomacy aspect of the game is not one that I would consider to be my strong suit. So I'm willing to learn.
     
  19. Thrallia

    Thrallia Prodigal Staffer GOTM Staff

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    We only need a total of +8 for each AI, including hidden modifiers.

    Luckily, they have no modifiers whatsoever toward barbs, AFAIK, so our alliance with them matters not in terms of diplomacy other than to give us an initial -3 with each civ.

    Luckily, since Asoka, Cyrus, and Qin all start out at +1(hidden), they'll really only be at -2 after the war declaration. Going from -2 to +8 shouldn't be too hard, considering we can get +4 for trades, +2-8 for religion, +2-5 for Civics, +1-3 for mutual wars, +1 for open borders, and +1-3 for sharing resources.

    it isn't likely we'd get all of those, but we trading is almost a given, as is OB, sharing resources(usually), and civics can be done easily as long as they don't have mutually exclusive fav. civics. As far as religion...preferably we can make those 3 the same religion as each other, then adopt that religion...otherwise, we don't HAVE to have it.
     
  20. Lehm

    Lehm Gypsy Jester

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    Well, it sounds really interesting to me trying a diplo win. If we can get a nice spot for a great people farm we´ll get those scientists and the artist very quick. BUT actually I have never seen a diplo win to be the fastest condition in one of the XOTM. One could get astronomy really fast by beelining to it. By analyzing games of "Doc TK" I learned that one can skip a lot of techs and get galleons about 600AD to 800AD. So still a lot of time to conquer everybody else before the first diplo wins are to be expected.

    So I vote for conquest though it should be easier than a normal conquest because we don´t have to care about the barbs. Diplo win as second option if something unexpected happens.

    Maceman pre 1 AD is absolutely necesary ( and nice ) for a conquest.

    Furthermore I agree with Thrallia to let the scout just move some squares to discover nice spots for next cities and let him wait close to Karakorum to fogbust.

    First tech(s) to discover: I would go for animal husbandry to work those juicy pigs.

    Oh, or does anyone want to move the settler? I would move the scout 1W then 1SW. If we don´t find anything special settle in place and build a worker first.
     

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