SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[Big Pig]

We then need fishing before we settle,

D'oh!!!!
Actually, I guess we need Fishing for any of our city sites except Coppertown. I think we have time to finish Agr and Fishing before a settler can be whipped and make it down south. And that makes Pottery a bit cheaper

We can start a wb in MW while it regrows to size 2 or 3 but it may be better to get wkr2 built before the wb. There isn't a great rush to start exploration immediately - we have already met all the civs and won't be getting a circumnav bonus and are a long way off from needing to decide if we go for Astro or not.

 

[Big Pig]

At present only Alex will agree to peace (presumably because he has won no battles against the barb animals). There is little to be gained from peace with Alex as we have no WW with him - however there is also no reason not to (we can of course always redeclare when he sends a settler to the mainland or if barbs start spawning on his island). The main benefit of peace will be that when he has Sailing, Hinduism may spread to us (even tho' we won't have OB)

 

[Erkon]

At present only Alex will agree to peace (presumably because he has won no battles against the barb animals). There is little to be gained from peace with Alex as we have no WW with him - however there is also no reason not to (we can of course always redeclare when he sends a settler to the mainland or if barbs start spawning on his island). The main benefit of peace will be that when he has Sailing, Hinduism may spread to us (even tho' we won't have OB)

When does barbs move? Between us and the AI? Doh! I meant: after us, but before the AI? Or does the barbs move after AI and before us?

If they move after us, we can wait for a barb to get next to a worker...

Regarding WB: I want to see where that island NE leads, so it may have an impact. We can also use it to scout Saladin lands (if he has nice resources we can skip settling most of our continent and go directly to his, I don't fancy chopping all that jungle...).

 

[klarius]

The gold city at size 1 only working the mined gold can build granary, monument or work boat within 12 turns (and there would be also a chop available).

BTW there will be no worker directly with the settler as you want to first get the bananas irrigated. So it's more like 15 turns where it cannot work anything better than coast, if we irrigate first. We could have the gold mined and worked 2 turns earlier. Then the gold mine will not even finish with growth. So that's about 9 turns not working the mined gold you're talking about.
And that's only to grow a pop for no immediate benefit and a pop rush every 18 turns afterwards. At least we should mine the gold first and irrigate while working the gold. Still I don't see that the growth in this city helps much.
Overall it's about 30 turns before we get any commerce benefit, compared to about 20 for working gold only and 6 if we settle the clams.

Fishing should be down to 2 turns, when we are through with agri. I still think we should invest these turns and get the overflow from settler in the wb (which means delaying settler 1 or 2 turns). We may not need the wb urgently, if not settling seafood, but what else do we need.

 

[klarius]

When does barbs move? Between us and the AI? Doh! I meant: after us, but before the AI? Or does the barbs move after AI and before us?

If they move after us, we can wait for a barb to get next to a worker...

We move first, barbs last, so no deal. Anyway, what's the big benefit of barbs destroying a worker.

It's pretty unlikely that a barb spawns with Alex. We haven't had an animal on his island on turn 6 when his borders weren't expanded, so less than 35 unclaimed tiles then (or no tile far enough from his borders). Now his borders are expanded and there need to be still 20 tiles (for raging barbs) for a barb to spawn.

 

[Big Pig]

The gold city at size 1 only working the mined gold can build granary, monument or work boat within 12 turns (and there would be also a chop available). But we lose a second chop by settling on forest - and have big overlap with a future clam city

BTW there will be no worker directly with the settler as you want to first get the bananas irrigated. So it's more like 15 turns where it cannot work anything better than coast, if we irrigate first. How quickly will a settler be built (assuming we chop with the worker then move to the bananas to irrigate)? I can't see the save but my impression was that after 1 chop the settler would still take another 8 turns or so before we can whip itWe could have the gold mined and worked 2 turns earlier. Then the gold mine will not even finish with growth. So that's about 9 turns not working the mined gold you're talking about.
And that's only to grow a pop for no immediate benefit and a pop rush every 18 turns afterwards. At least we should mine the gold first and irrigate while working the gold. Yes - that would probably be better, tho' we will need to work the coast while mining the goldStill I don't see that the growth in this city helps much.We benefit from whipping 45h/18t (= ~2 1/2 h per turn)
Overall it's about 30 turns before we get any commerce benefit, compared to about 20 for working gold only and 6 if we settle the clams.

Fishing should be down to 2 turns, when we are through with agri. I still think we should invest these turns and get the overflow from settler in the wb (which means delaying settler 1 or 2 turns). We may not need the wb urgently, if not settling seafood, but what else do we need.

I'm not sure I understand your timings. I guess a lot depends on how quickly the settler will be ready (ie how many turns before the worker has finished farming the banana). If the settler pops only a turn or two before the worker is finished then the commerce benefit for working the gold is only ~8 turns later than working the clams isn't it? (and is bigger)

 

[klarius]

The worker cannot start to irrigate before agri is done and that's currently showing at 8 turns. IIRC we have 27 in the settler +20 chop, 45 pop means 9 turns before settler can be rushed.

 

[Erkon]

Some calculations for the gold/rice city

Settle 1N of rice, work coastal tile.
Worker mine gold, then farm rice, then chop forest next to river (into monument/worker (EDIT) wb whatever), then cottage (1 from river, 1 from cottage), then road the gold & rice.

The cost of growing the city will thus be 6*7 = 42

After another 18 turns (at size 3), the city will produce +2 compared to at size 1. It will take 21 turns before breaking even (actually 18 turns since the cottage => hamlet). The city then grows to size 4 after another 19 turns, and hopefully we have a granary by then, and another cottage.

So, by working the rice (and grow) we will loose 42 , which we regain after 6+18=24 turns. From then on, the city will generate quite a lot of (7 from gold, 3 from first cottage, 2 from second cottage, 1 from city tile, 1 from trade, -3 in maintenance = 11 gpt)

 

[Erkon]

There is one thing we need to keep in mind regarding whipping. The reduced happiness means that we can work one tile less. I don't know about you guys, but it is in my opinion not wise to whip in a commerce city.

BTW klarius - please note that I appreciate your comments/argumentation, so don't hold back your thoughts due to politeness

 

[klarius]

Well, another point. Why can't the gold city be the 3rd city?
By the time we have the next settler we could have roaded most of the way down there instead of moving the worker empty. That would probable even speed up the connection of the gold, as we then should have really worker turns to spare in the meantime.

 

[Murky]

Alex can make for a good war ally against the other civs. We should consider doing a peace deal.

 

[Big Pig]

The worker cannot start to irrigate before agri is done and that's currently showing at 8 turns. IIRC we have 27 in the settler +20 chop, 45 pop means 9 turns before settler can be rushed.

Well, another point. Why can't the gold city be the 3rd city?
By the time we have the next settler we could have roaded most of the way down there instead of moving the worker empty. That would probable even speed up the connection of the gold, as we then should have really worker turns to spare in the meantime.

If there is an 8 turn delay between having the settler out and having the worker finished farming the banana then this may be preferable - particularly if the worker chops out a wb before farming the banana?

EDIT: I guess it also means we can concentrate on settler2 rather than wkr2 in MW as ClamCity wont need a worker immediately

 

[Big Pig]

Alex can make for a good war ally against the other civs. We should consider doing a peace deal.

But remember he will only really be at 'cautious' with us when he appears 'friendly' (and he will be 'annoyed' when he appears cautious')

So even if we are able to get him up to 'cautious' (unlikely as he won't OB or trade) he will really be 'annoyed' and unlikely to contemplate joining in a war at our request.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Good morning! (Now I know where all my nightmares came from...j/k)

Add'l data:
Settler: 37/150
Food: 1/36

Thoughts (an assembly of all your nuggets of wisdom):
1. Settle Copper city asap and and mine copper b4 jungle overgrows it.
2. Listen more carefully to Mîtiu Ioan: Let's strategize, guys. I think we need to somehow interweave these ideas for a short- to mid-range strategy:

• Use our copper to conquer Sal--a prod powerhouse w/no jungle.
• Build our commerce full-speed--we've back-burned it to focus on barb axes, now we need to front-burner it.
• Exploration: we need to know if there's a connection to Alex (NW of Gold/Desert Point). The sooner the better, because, if so 1) we need to build that bridge asap and 2) then we just go full-bore into conquering mode.
• Road our way down toward Gold City (kl-style), speeding up our long-term settlement by lowering mvmt costs.
• Gold city w/food is ideal for whipping because we only need 1 pop for the gold and we don't want 3-4 pops because of the maintenance and unhappiness. (But focus on gold first.)
• A number of your discussions can be clarified by doing a good MM analysis (which I have begun to distrust myself on...), which can then streamline our path.
• A barb killng a wkr slows down that AI.
• Why is chop only 20?

EDIT:

• Murky's idea on peace with Alex seems like a good one. Maybe he'll build culture instead of units and expands his borders faster.
• We need to think about where we want ports for our galleys, that is, where we want to go with our warrings.

 

[Big Pig]

BTW klarius - please note that I appreciate your comments/argumentation, so don't hold back your thoughts due to politeness

I note that you are not imploring myself or LC not to hold back our thoughts....

 

[LowtherCastle]

BTW klarius - please note that I appreciate your comments/argumentation, so don't hold back your thoughts due to politeness

klarius just hasn't noticed you yet--the rest of us have alreayd made utter fools of ourselves.

I know, speak for yourself, LC.

 

[Murky]

But remember he will only really be at 'cautious' with us when he appears 'friendly' (and he will be 'annoyed' when he appears cautious')

So even if we are able to get him up to 'cautious' (unlikely as he won't OB or trade) he will really be 'annoyed' and unlikely to contemplate joining in a war at our request.

Still, he does tend to be an aggressive civ often building more military than the average AI. I'd rather that be unleased against someone besides us if at all possible. The only other option really is to kill him so early he doesn't have a chance to build up enough troops.

 

[Erkon]

klarius just hasn't noticed you yet--the rest of us have alreayd made utter fools of ourselves.

I know, speak for yourself, LC.

That's why he never responds to my posts! He must have a spam filter or similar.

 

[klarius]

Alex is really a non-issue for peace or war. He doesn't know anybody and has to be on a small island (BTW, I don't know where, how do you guys think you know). It's not very likely he mounts a big naval assault.
Before he settles somewhere else, we could just ignore him. But on the other side we can try the peace thing, hoping to get a religion (does peace really help ?).

When we make peace with anybody that doesn't change anything for the AI, as long there are no barbs around.
They ignore being at war with the barb team in all their decisions. Only barbs at city gates will influence their build choices. So staying at war with Alex also has no direct benefits.

 

[Erkon]

I note that you are not imploring myself or LC not to hold back our thoughts....

As if you needed encouragement

Good morning! (Now I know where all my nightmares came from...j/k)

Add'l data:
Settler: 37/150
Food: 1/36

Thoughts (an assembly of all your nuggets of wisdom):
1. Settle Copper city asap and and mine copper b4 jungle overgrows it. No, we need commerce, not production.
2. Listen more carefully to Mîtiu Ioan: Let's strategize, guys. I think we need to somehow interweave these ideas for a short- to mid-range strategy:

• Use our copper to conquer Sal--a prod powerhouse w/no jungle. - After we have a strong economy, else we can't keep any cities. Perhaps we want to raze them anyway, but if they have nice resources, we may want to keep them.
• Build our commerce full-speed--we've back-burned it to focus on barb axes, now we need to front-burner it.
• Exploration: we need to know if there's a connection to Alex (NW of Gold/Desert Point). The sooner the better, because, if so 1) we need to build that bridge asap and 2) then we just go full-bore into conquering mode. - I agree, so lets take a detour with our WB to the NE around the island.
• Road our way down toward Gold City (kl-style), speeding up our long-term settlement by lowering mvmt costs. - Only if we have spare worker turns. You said it yourself: we better improve tiles next to jungle if we can.
• Gold city w/food is ideal for whipping because we only need 1 pop for the gold and we don't want 3-4 pops because of the maintenance and unhappiness. (But focus on gold first.) - No, it's ideal for since we can build library & market in that city, and forge/barracks in roduction: cities. City Specialization 101 anyone?
• A number of your discussions can be clarified by doing a good MM analysis (which I have begun to distrust myself on...), which can then streamline our path. - Such as building a settler at size 2? j/k
• A barb killng a wkr slows down that AI.
• Why is chop only 20? Hmm, isn't that on normal speed? Should be 30, yes?

EDIT:

• Murky's idea on peace with Alex seems like a good one. Maybe he'll build culture instead of units and expands his borders faster.
• We need to think about where we want ports for our galleys, that is, where we want to go with our warrings.

Will Alex know he's at peace? If I understood klarius correct, which I doubt, the AI will not change their production even if we make peace. Or?

BTW, I spoke to Gnejs and he said we were a sorry bunch of loosers that hadn't wiped out any AI yet.