SGOTM 06 - Misfits

ChrisFromLux · Feb 25, 2008

namliaM said:
ChrisFromLux => Up to go after Cyrus some more

OK, I'll take a first look at AG's save this evening ...

marowaker · Feb 25, 2008

namliaM said:
marowaker => Back to sleep

You got that one right. :goodjob:

Haven't looked at the current save yet but it sounds like you have done a god job.

ArcadicGamer · Feb 26, 2008

At the rate we can produce trebs/cats and the stacks we have, we dont need it. I'd say turn it off, upgrade all the troops as the get to the ships, and lets finish this before my next turnset. Speaking of which....

You'll want to send a few galleons to the SE portion of the land mass to possibly transport the troops there ready to attack the city there, we do not know if that part connects Eastward or not, but i think i have 2 scout heading to check it out. There is a resettling party south of the ragnar capitol stack.

ChrisFromLux · Feb 26, 2008

myself said:
OK, I'll take a first look at AG's save this evening ...

Ahem, I didn't manage to take the look yesterday ... somehow, I was distracted by G-Minor 35 (I blame namliaM for that!

).

So yesterday evening, I HAD to try to get another just-before-deadline-submission; and I still cannot believe it, but that one gave me the 3rd place

But now, I really plan on taking the look at the save tonight, and play it tomorrow. Promised

ChrisFromLux · Feb 26, 2008

OK, I took a really short look at the save:
- most cities are producing Cats/Trebs, and the major cities produce Macemen. I will keep that going, except that I'll build Grenadiers instead of the Maces.
- By that, I also agree on shutting down research, and get some money!
- But the money is needed to upgrade our Macemen: this means keeping 1 or 2 cities, instead of razing them, to be able to upgrade our army?!?
- AG, I have problems to understand what you meant by

AG said:
You'll want to send a few galleons to the SE portion of the land mass to possibly transport the troops there ready to attack the city there, we do not know if that part connects Eastward or not, but i think i have 2 scout heading to check it out.

Do you mean that WESTERN part of their continent, where the second part of our army is sitting at the moment? That land seems to continue further down SW, with probably a northern connection with the rest of the continent?!? We can see more Persian and Viking culture down there?!?
- What's the plan of the other part of our army near the Viking capital? Attack that city, and split our forces. Are we sure we can handle that? What do we know about their army-strengths?
- Why are there 1 galleon AND 1 CAT on that island NE of 'our' homeland???

That's it for now, I'll take a closer look in about ~4 hours ...

namliaM · Feb 26, 2008

I think the Cat and Galleon were there picking up a Village...

Cyrus we know nothing but... his power is "dwindling" with less and less cities
Saladin we know he has a MONSTER stack of units in his capitol (see my set)

We defenatly are not yet ready for that, but removing that Ragnar city or that Cyrus city somewhat due south of that stack are options

AG is refering to "the SE portion of the land mass" which is due SW of our main/home lands....
There looks to be Ragnar culture south of Lybian...

I wouldnt produce ANY Grens (ok one or two maybe) but rather build XBows, save hammers, spend money....
I wouldnt upgrade a single Maceman we have currently ONLY new ones to save the trouble of keeping a city and/or shuttling them back and forwards to our home lands.

That northern stack looks awfully burned... (badly wounded) but a medic is on the way...

6 turns (including the burn of the GM) to PP, do we want to push that?
PP give +1 commerce => We have 40-odd something Towns/Villages that will profit from it.
6 turns cost us 1200 gold we could otherwise save. Presuming some growth we will have lets say 50 extra commerce = gold at 0% research.
1200 / 50 = 24 turns + 6 (to research) => 30 turns
If the game will take longer than 30 more turns it is better to research PP.
But if the game takes longer than 30 turns it will be maybe 31 or so (IMHO) In particular if we can now use the money to upgrade (C3) XBows and (CR3) Pikes to Grens.

In case we are not goint to use the GM to burn on PP, we should settle him. Anywhere that can use the 1 food and has a market.

We are 23 XP away from the next Great General, what do we want to do with him?

Remeber to bring your :whipped:

cause some cities (i.e. London, Timbuktu and sparta) have unhappy citizens just waiting to be converted into Units (cat/Treb or even Gren) or possibly a happyness building like Market/Colosseum?
Again Market/Colosseum is mostly valuable if the game lasts longer, but I think it should take to long so units certainly have my vote.
Remeber we dont need to finish with +1000 gpt, we just need enough to kill the AI.

Mastiff_of_Ar · Feb 26, 2008

How long until our next GP? A golden age would sure speed things up!

ChrisFromLux · Feb 26, 2008

namliaM said:
I think the Cat and Galleon were there picking up a Village...

Ah, OK

namliaM said:
Cyrus we know nothing but... his power is "dwindling" with less and less cities
Saladin we know he has a MONSTER stack of units in his capitol (see my set)
We defenatly are not yet ready for that, but removing that Ragnar city or that Cyrus city somewhat due south of that stack are options

OK, in that case, I would suggest healing that stack, get reinforcements, raze Ragnar capital, then move South onto Cyrus, while our Southern Stack takes on Cyrus' and Ragnar's southern cities, and then moves up north to meet the other stack. Then use the combined forces to take out Saladin?!?

namliaM said:
AG is refering to "the SE portion of the land mass" which is due SW of our main/home lands....

OK, then we have been referring to the same land ...

namliaM said:
There looks to be Ragnar culture south of Lybian...

It doesn't only look to be Ragnar's culture, it's his culture for sure. Though, it could also been another island city, while the continent itself takes a southwestern turn, where Cyrus' culture comes from?!?

namliaM said:
I wouldnt produce ANY Grens (ok one or two maybe) but rather build XBows, save hammers, spend money....
I wouldnt upgrade a single Maceman we have currently ONLY new ones to save the trouble of keeping a city and/or shuttling them back and forwards to our home lands.
...
In particular if we can now use the money to upgrade (C3) XBows and (CR3) Pikes to Grens.

So, you suggest building C3-XBows and CR3-Pikes, and upgrade them to Grenadiers? Hmmm, sounds good for me!

namliaM said:
That northern stack looks awfully burned... (badly wounded) but a medic is on the way...

I saw that Medic-Explorer heading there. But there's a second Medic-Explorer heading there as well, in a Galleon with a Maceman and a Treb. I would suggest to move those units to the southern Army, to be able to heal them faster as well. No need to have 2 Medics in 1 Army!

namliaM said:
6 turns (including the burn of the GM) to PP, do we want to push that?
PP give +1 commerce => We have 40-odd something Towns/Villages that will profit from it.
6 turns cost us 1200 gold we could otherwise save. Presuming some growth we will have lets say 50 extra commerce = gold at 0% research.
1200 / 50 = 24 turns + 6 (to research) => 30 turns
If the game will take longer than 30 more turns it is better to research PP.
But if the game takes longer than 30 turns it will be maybe 31 or so (IMHO)

Hmmm, 30 turns to finish??? :eek:

You're sure about that, without knowing how much land, cities and units Cyrus and Saladin have left. Not counting their island-cities we have to raze after cleaning up the continent.
But ... if you think we can do that, then I agree on not bulbing PP ...

namliaM said:
In case we are not goint to use the GM to burn on PP, we should settle him. Anywhere that can use the 1 food and has a market.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
How long until our next GP? A golden age would sure speed things up!

Not sure if MoA wants to use that next GP alone to trigger a Golden Age. Because we're playing Warlords here, so the 1st Golden Age needs 2 GPersons to be triggered.
But I still think MoA's idea is the Best. Instead of settling the GM, and get +6 :gold:

for your 30 turns, we could it use to trigger the GA (next GPerson will be born in 5 turns, 40% for a GE) which will give us +1 :commerce:

on all tiles during 12 turns ... which will net us more than the GM (and that doesn't need any calculating, I think!)
Not to mention the bonus- :hammers:

we get ...

namliaM said:
We are 23 XP away from the next Great General, what do we want to do with him?

Use it to get a Super-Doctor, maybe?!?

namliaM said:
Remember to bring your cause some cities (i.e. London, Timbuktu and sparta) have unhappy citizens just waiting to be converted into Units (cat/Treb or even Gren) or possibly a happyness building like Market/Colosseum?
Again Market/Colosseum is mostly valuable if the game lasts longer, but I think it should take to long so units certainly have my vote.
Remeber we dont need to finish with +1000 gpt, we just need enough to kill the AI.

Agree on whipping those citizens, but I would also whip units instead of buildings. In fact, I wouldn't build anymore buildings from now?!?

ChrisFromLux · Feb 27, 2008

No reply?

OK, I'll play this evening, though. (in ~3 hours!)

The plan is:

Shutdown Research and get the money

Finish the Maces in the best cities, then switch 2 of them (not Masttown, though) to Pikes

Heal the northern army (using that Medic-Explorer), then raze that Viking city

Keep moving with the southern army, raze Libyan and then continue westwards

Get the 2nd Medic-Explorer to the southern army

Keep exploring the western part of the map, using the Cat-Galleon

Start a Golden Age with that 2nd GPerson and the GM

namliaM · Feb 27, 2008

That sounds about right...

1 thing maybe... why no pikes in Masttown? What is your proposed rotation?
XBow XBow Gren?

ChrisFromLux · Feb 27, 2008

Oh, got that wrong ... :blush:

The plan was rather to switch 2 cities to XBows, to be Combat3 promoted and upgraded to Grens, and switch Masttown and another city to Pikes, to be CRaider3 promoted ...
And build Grens in Masttown if not enough money left to upgrade ...

ChrisFromLux · Feb 27, 2008

OK, the turn is done ...

- First of all, I've shut down research, changed all Scientists to Engineers, where possible. Merchants in the other cities.

- Once the GPerson was born (GE, by the way), I started a Golden Age, using him and the GM.

- London and Athens were whipped to happiness, for 2 pop.

The northern Army
They waited for 3 turns for most units to heal, they got some more reinforcements and a Medic-Explorer. Then, they moved towards Roskilde, which they razed on turn 325.
After that, they moved south, to the first Persian city, Bactra, razed on turn 329.
They are now on their way towards Persepolis ...

The southern army
First, the 3 units near Libyan took down the defenses, waited for 3 more Macemen, and razed the city on turn 323. Then, they moved towards Persian territory. Some of the units had to heal, which they did outside the borders, using that 2nd Medic-Explorer to fasten things, while some 10-12 units moved inside Persian borders, took their way to the south-most city, Arbela, and razed it on my final turn. During this time, the other units were healed, and they moved towards Persepolis and Gordium.
Ragnar's culture we saw South of Libyan is an island city; we don't know anything of the size of that island, though ...

Reinforcements
There are currently 4x3 units on the other continent, with quite some (siege) units waiting for Transports in Coventry, and many more units on their way to Coventry (they are all on GoTo-Mode!)
3 of these reinforcements took out the new Saladin city (Muscat), settled on the location of the initial Viking Capital!

Great General
The GG has been born on the last turn, and I haven't moved him yet. But as I suggested above, a Super-Medic could be interesting, for even faster unit-healing?!?

Workers
The workers chopped down most of the forests that were left. Then, they started to build some roads, to maybe shortcut some travel-paths. Not sure on that, though, but there was nothing else to do ...

Scouting out the other continent
While traveling along the Arabian coast, our scouting ship took some looks into Saladins towns. Our land-units also reported about the enemies in Persepolis ...

Here is an overview of what we have scouted so far, and the position of our armies and reinforcements ...

ChrisFromLux · Feb 27, 2008

Here is the save,

and the auto-log ...

Spoiler AutoLog :

ChrisFromLux · Feb 27, 2008

Hmmm, a limit of 30000 characters per post? :crazyeye:

OK, here's the Upload-log, then ...

Spoiler UploadLog :

ArcadicGamer · Feb 27, 2008

Looks Good. I think that with a bit of luck and some CR3 Grens and more suicidal trebs we can wrap this puppy up in 30 turns. the stack in Cyrus' capitol is bad, but nothing we cant handle. I'll look at the save possibly tonight if all goes to plan with my new upgrade.

namliaM · Feb 28, 2008

Nice going chris...

Is persepolis worth keeping? Or should we just raze it?
It has:
8gpp Great Lib :mad:

2gpp Great Lighthouse (+7 commerce)
2gpp Hagia
2gpp Chicken Pizza
2gpp Spiral
5gpp Artemis
====
21gpp/pt

I think keeping it is a defensive headache... but just throwing the option out there.

Comments:
- We are building Macemen in Masttown, I suggest changing that to Pikes.
They get CR to and are cheaper to build.
- Landing units
We appearently have a shortage in boats we need to build some more boats, maybe a rotation of Pike/Galleon in Masttown? To add to our transportation needs?
Also I think we can just put them units on land near Coventry and have them walk on their own, sure its slower getting them there, but we get more units faster...
In that respect there is a road missing on a hill in that route... We may want to keep a worker or two (or transport some workers over) to complete that road and make travel a little faster.

- Land type
Cyrus/Saladin seem to connect up due west that is nice...

- GG
I dont think we need a super healer, rather a super attacker....
I would attach him to a Pike for
1) Free promotion to Gren
2) 29xp = 5 promotions, C2 / Cr3 /Leadership gren

- Islands
We need some boats to go support our island attacks.

ChrisFromLux · Feb 28, 2008

namliaM said:
Is persepolis worth keeping? Or should we just raze it?
It has:
8gpp Great Lib
2gpp Great Lighthouse (+7 commerce)
2gpp Hagia
2gpp Chicken Pizza
2gpp Spiral
5gpp Artemis
====
21gpp/pt

I think keeping it is a defensive headache... but just throwing the option out there.

Hmmm, I don't think we should keep it! We would have to keep units stuck there for defense, leaving us less units to attack. And if someone manages to re-conquer it, we would have to make the detour to Persepolis again, take down the defenses again and loose some more units ...

And for getting those GPP, I don't think that's worth it either. Athens produces 44GPP/turn, and will give birth to another GPerson in ~25 turns. And that's a GPerson we have no real use for

So, IMHO, raze that city!!!

namliaM said:
Comments:
- We are building Macemen in Masttown, I suggest changing that to Pikes.
They get CR to and are cheaper to build.

That's true ... but they also cost 45 :gold:

-more to upgrade, and Masttown also produced 1 Maceman/turn. That's why I kept it building Maces, whereas I switched London, Athens and ? to building XBows and Pikes ...

namliaM said:
- Landing units
We appearently have a shortage in boats we need to build some more boats, maybe a rotation of Pike/Galleon in Masttown? To add to our transportation needs?

True, I had some transport-shortages. But there was 1 Galleon near Libyan, on the start of my set, that was badly damaged. I moved that ship back to Coventry to heal inside the city (still 4 turn, IIRC), so it just took its first passengers onboard on my final turns ...
And once the scouting-ship has circumnavigated 'their' continent, it can also join the transporting-force.

On the final turns, I landed the troops straight west of Coventry (NW of Ragnar's ancient capital). Thats 1 more turn onboard the ship, but it finally gets the units faster to action; especially once they have to move north to fight Saladin ...

Once the continent starts to be cleared, we can use the ships to move units to their island cities, as we won't need anymore reinforcements on their main land.

In other words, I'm not really convinced we need more ships!

namliaM said:
Also I think we can just put them units on land near Coventry and have them walk on their own, sure its slower getting them there, but we get more units faster...
In that respect there is a road missing on a hill in that route... We may want to keep a worker or two (or transport some workers over) to complete that road and make travel a little faster.

As I said above, landing the units a bit more to north is more interesting, IMHO. It takes the ships 1 turn longer to deliver their cargo, but the units gain more travel-turns, the further north we attack.

And like I said, that injured ship restarted its duty 2-3 turns ago, and the scouting-ship should have reached Coventry in ~5 turns, so it can start transporting as well ...

namliaM said:
- Land type
Cyrus/Saladin seem to connect up due west that is nice...

Yes, the coast goes straight from Susa to Gordium, in my opinion. In other words, the size/lay-out of their continent has been revealed!

I believe Cyrus has another city in between Persepolis, Gordium and Susa, and probably 2 other citites north of that. And the rest seems to be owned by Saladin.
There were some 2 or 3 Camel Archers attacking our northern army on their move from Roskilde --> Bactra --> Persepolis ...

namliaM said:
- GG
I dont think we need a super healer, rather a super attacker....
I would attach him to a Pike for
1) Free promotion to Gren
2) 29xp = 5 promotions, C2 / Cr3 /Leadership gren

That would be another good choice, of course. I, in general, always like to have a Doc-General, but probably, it's too late for that?!?

namliaM said:
- Islands
We need some boats to go support our island attacks.

We can use our existing boats to deliver units to their islands, once Saladin is down to ~6 cities. By that time, we should have more than enough units on their continent to finish him off.

There don't seem to be that many island-cities ... Ragnar has that northern island, and that one south of Ex-Libyan.
Cyrus has at least one city SW of Gordium, and Saladin has that city in the NW ...
For now, that's all we know off, and there isn't that much land we haven't discovered ...

namliaM · Feb 28, 2008

CfL said:
So, IMHO, raze that city!

I agree, but I am just putty the option out there….

CfL said:
Cost 45 more to upgrage

Cheaper to build = More expensive to upgrade… but I think at what 1.something upgrades we can do (I did the math earlier) + raze $$$ I think we can afford to spend some money on upgrades to get more units faster.

CfL said:
transport-shortages

It is one turn one way… so two turns round trip… that is an extra trip to “AI country” on the short boat-trip. Offcourse you cannot load and unload on the same turn… but with some management I think we ultimately get more units to the front faster when doing the short boat trip vs the longer one, eventho on the short term we might be faster if we do the 2 turn trip.

As far as unit count goes we do not NEED the cats/Trebs on the frontline NOW. But we do need that at some point… Maybe we should switch some more cities to XBows/Grens cause we seem to have plenty of Cats/Trebs as it is…

CfL said:
Once the continent starts to be cleared

I disagree, with Ragnar hiding on some stupid Islands we are still supporting the WW for him (some 5 cities razed = a nice bit of WW) killing him will allow us to keep pushing harder in the long run. So I think we need to allot one boat due south and one north to transport some units.

It probably wont take much … 2 cats/Trebs and 4 CR3 Macemen/Grens should do the trick (= 2 boat trips from the AI-mainland to the islands) and hopefully 2 trips back….

CfL said:
I’m not really convinced we need more ships

Maybe we don’t need more ships but we need to use them more efficiently IMHO. => Shorter trips

CfL said:
Doc-General

How much healing do we need to do? Offcourse there are big stacks out there to be killed… but how much better is medic 3 over medic 2?

He heals 15 hitpoint/turn more… going from 20 to 35 hitpoint/turn In effect healing just about anything in 3 turns. While a medic 2 will heal just about anything in 4 turns. This is a 25% increase in healing speed.

But that is worst case, offcourse any unit with a 34 hp wound only needs 1 turn with a medic3 over the 2 turns needed for Medic 2, which is a 50% increase in healing speed.

We have enough battering rams (trebs/cats) as it is do we don’t really need a super city raider … Best make him a medic I guess….

CfL said:
and there isn’t that much land

There is still quite some black stuff around, I wouldn’t be surprised if we find another few AI cities out there.

My point is this

These island cities –in general- don’t have much production at all, so something like four Cr3 units + 2 Seige (Trebs) per >1 tile island city can do a lot of damage vs 2 or 3 LBs/Muskets. We don’t need a full assault force like we do for the main continent. The sooner we remove the island cities, maybe even prior to the mainland cities, the sooner we win.

+ Totally killing an AI = no more WW => Keep pushing harder. So killing Ragnar sooner = -eventually- killing Cyrus sooner = -eventually- killing Saladin sooner = -eventually- winning sooner

Mastiff_of_Ar · Feb 28, 2008

Is there more than one Raggy island city? I only see one...

Oh, and I'm up? I've been home sick for a couple days, but I can play once we're done discussing...

What are the promos for the supermedic... I've never made one. And should he be a gren?

ChrisFromLux · Feb 28, 2008

namliaM said:
Cheaper to build = More expensive to upgrade but I think at what 1.something upgrades we can do (I did the math earlier) + raze $$$ I think we can afford to spend some money on upgrades to get more units faster.

Well, if you did the calculations, then OK. I continued on producing Maces in Masttown, because it simply build a Mace every turn. No turn where it didn't produce one ... of course, that won't go on forever; somewhere, there will be 1 turn without one, but it also saves us 45 :gold:

/turn ...

But if you're sure we won't run out of Money, then OK ... switch it to Pikes ...

namliaM said:
It is one turn one way so two turns round trip that is an extra trip to AI country on the short boat-trip. Offcourse you cannot load and unload on the same turn but with some management I think we ultimately get more units to the front faster when doing the short boat trip vs the longer one, eventho on the short term we might be faster if we do the 2 turn trip.

Are we sure we need that long-term goal ... if we merge our 3 troops, get the reinforcements we already have to the front, we should start rolling faster through their cities, if we kamikaze enough Siege units ...

namliaM said:
As far as unit count goes we do not NEED the cats/Trebs on the frontline NOW. But we do need that at some point Maybe we should switch some more cities to XBows/Grens cause we seem to have plenty of Cats/Trebs as it is

I agree on that. I just kept producing Cats/Trebs everywhere, except in thos cities with Instructors, but now I think we have really enough of them. So we could switch the most productive cities to Pikes?!?
But why produce Grens in those cities, instead of upgrading Pikes?

namliaM said:
I disagree, with Ragnar hiding on some stupid Islands we are still supporting the WW for him (some 5 cities razed = a nice bit of WW) killing him will allow us to keep pushing harder in the long run. So I think we need to allot one boat due south and one north to transport some units.

Of course, WW for Ragnar keeps going. But if there's no action, it doesn't get worse. Ragnar seems to only have island cities left, So no fighting at the moment = no more WW.
Of course, killing him would eliminate his portion of the WW. On the other hand, our cities are quite happy at the moment. Only 2 with -1 :mad:

...

namliaM said:
It probably wont take much 2 cats/Trebs and 4 CR3 Macemen/Grens should do the trick (= 2 boat trips from the AI-mainland to the islands) and hopefully 2 trips back.

I agree on that ... preferably, 4 CR3-Grens, and no city shall stand a chance! I would use new units from home to do that though, and keep the units on their continent rolling, no?!?

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
Is there more than one Raggy island city? I only see one...

There's one island in the North (Birca), and you can see his culture South of where Libyan was located. (That's not on the screenshot, though)

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
Oh, and I'm up? I've been home sick for a couple days, but I can play once we're done discussing...

Yes, according to namliaM's roster, you're up. And I think he's right

But a message for maroWaker: don't sleep too deep

; I think you might get the honor of finishing this game. I doubt 20 turns will be enough

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
What are the promos for the supermedic... I've never made one. And should he be a gren?

Well, the most important promo for the Super-Medic is 'MedicIII'. That heals units in the same tile, and in all adjacent tiles extra 15% damage.
To get 'MedicIII', your prerequisites are 'CombatI' --> 'MedicI' --> 'MedicII'. That leaves room for another promotion, which should 'Morale', I think, for faster movement!

And he should definitely NOT be a Gren. GG-Units can be promoted for free ... so take a Pike, get the GG attached, and upgrade him to a Gren for 0 :gold:

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