SGOTM 07 - iWarbadly (Mac)

[dojoboy]

Wakey, Wakey SAVES AVAILABLE

We need to talk about who is going to go first

I'm out of town until Saturday night.

 

[peter grimes]

I still haven't done a practice game yet

Perhaps I'll have time this evening?

But just because the saves are available doesn't mean we need to rush to begin. We have 3 months to complete the game.

Personally, I think that if we get going within 2 weeks we'll be fine. We can always pause after the first set* or 2 to test out in our practice games.

*...which raises the question: what size turnsets? 40, 20, 20, 20, 10? 20 all the way?

 

[mikeyredk]

I say since it is a normal Turn set we should do

15 for the first time around then 10. Depending on the activity level. After the first 15 we should take a break to discuss and simulate

 

[dr_s]

Since we're going to have a pretty tiny empire, I wonder if it doesn't make more sense to let the turnsets vary in length a bit, and end them according to events. For example, a turnset could last until a given tech is researched or build completed, etc. Exceptions for wartime or other unusual happenings, of course.

10 turns can go pretty fast when you just have one city and four or five units.

 

[peter grimes]

4 or 5 units? Ok, Dr. Warmonger!

I agree it makes more sense to end turnset according to events. But we might still want to have a rough idea of length of set. (15ish?) Of course, if the player is MMing something complicated, he should really play out until the next build/tech is started.

 

[peter grimes]

I managed to play through some of a practice game. I agree that getting the pyramids shouldn't be out of the question. I didn't even work the copper tile, as we don't know if we'll have that. I chopped two forests, other than that it was a straight build.

Build order:
warrior - workboat - workboat - worker (whipped into..) - Pyramids - various defenders

Pyramids were started in 2640, completed 1960, that works out to 13 turns. The stone wasn't hooked up when I started, as the worker was produced the turn before I started the Wonder. So we could really complete it in about 9 or 10 turns, depending on chops and worker moves.

Techs:
fishing - masonry - BW - wheel - pots - writing - alphabet

I stopped keeping careful notes after that. On the turn I discovered Alphabet, I forgot to trade techs around, but I managed to pick up just about everything I lacked over the following 4 turns.

THen I got a crash to desktop

 

[dojoboy]

Since we're going to have a pretty tiny empire, I wonder if it doesn't make more sense to let the turnsets vary in length a bit, and end them according to events. For example, a turnset could last until a given tech is researched or build completed, etc. Exceptions for wartime or other unusual happenings, of course.

My only concern is that a good deal of time may elapse without team feedback, and in that time, city growth, etc. would come into play. For example, if I'm playing and I allow an oversight to exist for too long, no one would catch it. ???

 

[peter grimes]

That's a good point.

I've played a few OCC's on Noble, but I've never won. A small oversight can have enormous consequences. Micromanaging becomes paramount, since you have to squeeze every possible beaker and every possible hammer out of just one city. Likewise, it's very important to stay on top of civics; but since we're not spiritual that's going to be a little more tricky than I'm used to. Most of my OCCs have been with spiritual civs.

 

[mikeyredk]

Okay we need to work this out. How about we leave it to 10 turns since this is a normal game with only 442 moves (giving us 5 88 rounds if we make it all the way) this way we don't get bored but be able to monitor the progress much better. Off course if you find yourself in a difficult situation like you see a SOD marching towards us and they haven't declared yet STOP so we can discuss our options before continuing.

 

[dojoboy]

Okay we need to work this out. How about we leave it to 10 turns since this is a normal game with only 442 moves (giving us 5 88 rounds if we make it all the way) this way we don't get bored but be able to monitor the progress much better. Off course if you find yourself in a difficult situation like you see a SOD marching towards us and they haven't declared yet STOP so we can discuss our options before continuing.

I think 10 turns is good, maybe 20 for whoever goes first, then 10 on around. I'm about to play one of the practice start files, after my coffee.

We should also make a play order.

 

[dr_s]

I'll go along with the consensus, of course.

I don't know how long the game will last, but we do have to finish in three months. My practice games lasted about 350 turns (until the mid-late 1950s). That would be 35 10-turn turnsets, so we'll have to make sure we don't take too much time between rounds.

I would be interested in seeing some mid-game saves from the practice maps, if anyone wants to post one.

 

[dojoboy]

I managed to play through some of a practice game. I agree that getting the pyramids shouldn't be out of the question. I didn't even work the copper tile, as we don't know if we'll have that. I chopped two forests, other than that it was a straight build.

Build order:
warrior - workboat - workboat - worker (whipped into..) - Pyramids - various defenders

Pyramids were started in 2640, completed 1960, that works out to 13 turns. The stone wasn't hooked up when I started, as the worker was produced the turn before I started the Wonder. So we could really complete it in about 9 or 10 turns, depending on chops and worker moves.

Techs:
fishing - masonry - BW - wheel - pots - writing - alphabet

I used the iWarbadly practice save file.

Build order:
worker - warrior - Pyramids - worker

I had hooked up the stone & marble (w/ mines) during the building of the Pyramids: stone first then marble. I completed the Pyramids in 2000 BC, pop-rushing 1 citizen w/ 2 turns left to ensure I got it - didn't want any ties, seems the AI wins all ties.

Techs:
masonry - wheel - BW - IW

 

[peter grimes]

That's very interesting, Dojo! I used the iWarbadly B save file. Is that the same one you used?

So you completed Pyramids 1 turn before I did (I could have pop-rushed, but didn't think to), but I had 2 more workboats and 2 fewer forests. I didn't lose any health from the forest chops, but that was lucky - I almost never do that calculation correctly

I didn't mention this, but my early build and tech order matched up pretty well: warrior completed with Fishing, workboat completed with masonry, 2nd wb completed just before BW, so that when I started the worker I was already at pop 3, so I could whip it into Pyr.

I definitely want to fine-tune this start some more. I've never done a worker steal, so perhaps someone with more experience can test that and report?

10-turn turnsets makes a lot of sense, even in the beginning. After all, with enough testing we should have a fairly reliable script for the beginning of the game. The only questions will be those sorts of unknowns regarding our neighbors and their terrain.

 

[dr_s]

I did some worker stealing in my tests. I don't think it makes sense to do it in this game. It's suicide if we don't have metal handy, and it doesn't help very much, since we only need one worker for the whole game anyway.

 

[dr_s]

Played a bit yesterday starting from the 1300 AD save that I posted before. I wanted to see if I could turn that game into a win by making a permanent alliance with a different civ. The PA guide that was posted before said an AI won't make a PA with you if it's at the top of the power graph:

"We're doing fine on our own"

Look at the Power graph again. You're Pact brother must also not be on top or you get this problem. This means you probably can't gift him your units. If you didn't give him any and he's still on top, then you have to give tech and probably military units to another Civ. One that you don't plan to attack probably. Just a couple units makes a significant jump up on the Power graph, so it's easy.


This is not true. In the test game, Huayna Capac came to me to make a PA even though he was well ahead of everyone else in power. I didn't finish the game, but it's a sure win (HC was the winner when I played that save out by allying with Saladin.)

 

[dr_s]

chirp ... chirp ... chirp

 

[dojoboy]

chirp ... chirp ... chirp

Yea, let's go.

 

[mikeyredk]

Yep where all ready I say dr_s goes first since he has played alot of simulations and knows what he is doing out of the gate

 

[peter grimes]

Yes, Dr_S should go first.

Perhaps only a few turns? 10-ish? It would be smart for us to simulate as much as we can of this game.

 

[dr_s]

I'm willing to go first, but do we have a plan? Here are some questions:

(1) Settle in place? Yes or no?
(2) What's our first tech? Fishing? Bronze Working? Masonry? What's our second tech?
(3) What's our first build? Worker or warrior?
(4) What early wonders are we targeting, and why?