SGOTM 07 - iWarbadly (Mac)

[peter grimes]

Update:

I have to look into my installation - I'm getting that locked modified assets error message. Which is strange, because I was able to play the test games under the mod just fine

I think we should skip me and Dojoboy should play.

 

[dr_s]

I agree about hunting after BW. The worker will have plenty to do hooking up the stone and marble. We should also work both crab tiles once we have the second WB; that will give us lots of growth and commerce.

 

[peter grimes]

OK - false alarm. I'm able to open the save just fine. I was clicking on the wrong alias

Playing now.

 

[peter grimes]

Save is here.

Pyramids started. ETA: 15 turns with 2 chops.

Notable events:
Judaism founded in 2840 (the last turn I played)
Asoka founded Buddhism, and Washington converted to it
Copper under our capital , but it's a double edged sword [see below]
Asoka wanted our crab for his gold. I accepted. We can now grow to size 5.

We have 11 forests, providing us with 5 health. We can chop 3 and we'll still have 8 health for our city.

I had timed the walls to come within 2 when BW completed, so I could revolt and then whip the walls into the pyramids. But when BW came in, all of the sudden the walls were complete

What did I do wrong?? I was furious with myself for cocking that up.

Then I realized that the copper popping underneath the city gave me 4 more hammers than I had counted on. In hindsight I should have realized that was a possibility, and left 6 to completion so that we still could have whipped.

Oh well, live and learn

On the whole it's great, though - our capital is producing 3 per turn for the rest of the game! And that's already and extra 60 hammers or so for the Pyramids. Still, would have been nicer with the pop-hammers as well

Dojoboy is up!

[screenshots will be posted later on tonight]

 

[mikeyredk]

The thing with getting hunting it will give us another (too late)

OMG I just saw the save!!! why are you chopping down grass plain forests first!! You should chop the Hills plains first because we have mining we can mine those for 5 hammers. Also note the massive build up of archers from washington might be facing an eminent attack. Need to switch off pyramids and get on building some defense 1-2 axes.

 

[dojoboy]

I've got the save. I have to finish some chores before I have a look and post.

dr_s
peter grimes
dojoboy - Up
mikeyredk - on deck
lazarillo - warming up

What is the optimum # of before a chop and after a chop leading into the next build? I see pg references this, but honestly I never pay attention to in my personal games.

 

[dr_s]

I agree that we should chop the hills before the plains. So we should cancel the current chop and chop the hill 1N instead. All chops should go to the pyramids.

Also agree about the archers. I think what we should do is switch to an axe and let it build for 4 turns at 8 . Then whip it for one pop, putting the into the pyramids along with a chopped forest. Then switch back and build one more axe for four turns, whipping again into the pyramids. That'll give us two axes and two whips worth of for the pyramids. The happiness will be taken care of by Representation+beavers.

Also I think that we should cancel the trade with Asoka when we get the chance, since his religion is not the same as Washington's. Better to cancel on our own than wait for Washington to ask us.

 

[dr_s]

What is the optimum # of before a chop and after a chop leading into the next build? I see pg references this, but honestly I never pay attention to in my personal games.

I don't quite understand this question. Are you talking about chopping or whipping? The main point is when you have overflow the bonuses that apply are those for the item that gets built with the overflow , not the item in the queue when you whip/chop.

For example, if you have an axe in the queue with 32 already applied to it, and you whip for 30 more, and your city gives you 3 more. 3 of those 33 go to complete the axe, and 30 are carried over. If the next build is the pyramids and you have stone hooked up, those 30 get doubled to 60 for the pyramids. (Note that the overflow is capped at the total needed to build the first item. In this case, you can't carry over more than 35 because that's the cost of an axe.) It would work the same for overflow from a chop (or any overflow, for that matter). This is why I made the recommendation I did above; each whip gives you 60 for the pyramids at the cost of one whip.

Does that make sense/answer your question?

 

[dojoboy]

Hm, we can switch the chop, but I don't think it's that grave an error. Isn't it faster to chop a plain-forest than a hill-forest? We've three turns left for the chop.

Washington is cautious toward us. If we cancel the clam to Asoka, we can gift it to Washington. ??? It may be a good idea to slip in an axeman or two as dr_s suggested, but does it matter? On this difficulty level, wouldn't we be toast just the same - this early?

 

[dojoboy]

Does that make sense/answer your question?

Yes, quite. Thanks. So, one doesn't want to whip/complete chop too early?

If any of you guys use IM, PM me your username or post it. Mine is dojoboy65.

 

[dr_s]

Yes, quite. Thanks. So, one doesn't want to whip/complete chop too early?

It depends what you're trying to do. What I described above was the way to maximize the amount of overflow you get. In that case, you want the current item as completely built as possible before you chop/whip. Often, though, you want to minimize the amount of unhappiness from whipping. In that case, you generally want to whip sooner (but not if you haven't put any at all into the item---there's a penalty for that) because the unhappiness for whipping one population is the same as the unhappiness for whipping more than one.

When whipping lots of units, it's often best to whip when there are just over 30 remaining to build the unit (normal speed, just over 45 at epic). Then you can whip for 2 pop and still get lots of overflow for the following unit.

But we don't have enough pop yet for whipping more than one pop.

As for the axemen, it'll be easy for us to hold off Washington with axes, should he DOW. So we should build one or two, I think.

 

[mikeyredk]

Hey where is lazarillo? i'll send him a message

BTW I also use AIM my S/n is mikeyredk2

 

[lazarillo]

All,

Sorry I am not responding much. At first I wasn't because it was clear that I just didn't know as much of the strategy as the rest of you. But I hadn't seen the post since the order was given.
I get pretty busy with real life sometimes, but I will keep up with it. I am now looking through the older posts to get a sense of the plans. Thanks for putting me last... it will give me a better chance to see what others have done & what you all want to do next.

Mike

 

[mikeyredk]

This is what I said to lazarillo. He might be better served as a lurker rather than a player he can give input into decision making. Its up to him whether or not he thinks he has the time to put into the game.

 

[lazarillo]

This is what I said to lazarillo. He might be better served as a lurker rather than a player he can give input into decision making. Its up to him whether or not he thinks he has the time to put into the game.

All,

It depends upon how you all feel about me "bailing", but sure, I can be a lurker this time around. I just don't want to introduce myself to you guys by making dumb moves. I've never survived anything higher than Monarch (although I do choose "random" for everything & the hugest non-custom map, which I know makes things harder), so I know that I'd lose to this diety set.
If it were me against you all, I wouldn't mind losing. But I don't wanna be the one who keeps this team from winning. So assuming it is OK w/you all, I'll just stay in as a "lurker".

Mike

 

[dojoboy]

All,

It depends upon how you all feel about me "bailing", but sure, I can be a lurker this time around. I just don't want to introduce myself to you guys by making dumb moves. I've never survived anything higher than Monarch (although I do choose "random" for everything & the hugest non-custom map, which I know makes things harder), so I know that I'd lose to this diety set.
If it were me against you all, I wouldn't mind losing. But I don't wanna be the one who keeps this team from winning. So assuming it is OK w/you all, I'll just stay in as a "lurker".

Mike

Mike, feel free to stay and play. I've never won anything over Prince, not that I've tried, but you'll be fine. Seriously.

 

[peter grimes]

OMG I just saw the save!!! why are you chopping down grass plain forests first!! You should chop the Hills plains first because we have mining we can mine those for 5 hammers. Also note the massive build up of archers from washington might be facing an eminent attack. Need to switch off pyramids and get on building some defense 1-2 axes.

I'm chopping the riverside grassland forest first since that will be our most powerful cottage. As soon as our worker is done with the chops, we need to get that cottage started. Every turn we delay will cost us 11gpt over the length of the game (before modifiers).

Don't waste time building a mine on a hill - we get more hammers into the Pyramids from 3 turns of chopping than we do from 4 turns of mining: (60/3 turns = 20/worker turn vs. 34 /per 7 worker turns + 4/each turn after) I know the mine keeps on giving, but we don't need the 'long term' hammers as much as we need the short term hammers in a race against the AI.

Until coal, a mine on a plains hill gives 4 hammers, not 5.

The massive building up of Archers doesn't have me worried. If we are really that concerned, we can offer Washington our other crab - we don't need it for a while.

That's why I'm not so sure we need to build the axes. We should only do it if we'll still get the pyramids in the same timeframe (or faster!). We need to test this before the next turnset is played!
2 assays: 1 whipping axes, 1 whipping no axes.

In all of my test games, the AI routinely had tons of military in all their cities - this case looks no different.

@Lazarillo: I think you'll learn more by staying and playing, than just staying and reading. Of course, we may not be the best teachers . For what it's worth, I've never won a game above Prince either, but then again I rarely play Single Player.

 

[dojoboy]

I'm in agreement w/ pg. I think grabbing The Pyramids is the primary goal at this point. Can we get the axemen in and The Pyramids in the same time frame as just sticking with The Pyramids? I'd like to get my turn in this evening, as I've got some grading to do this week, as well as some lesson planning.

 

[peter grimes]

OK, I did two tests. They weren't perfect.
-I failed to revolt to slaves before starting the test
-I couldn't get our capital to produce 3, for some reason after I WBed the copper into it, it stayed at just 1
-In both scenarios, I researched Hunting - Pots - AH

1st trial, no axemen:
I chopped 3 forests. river grass 1e, river grass 2e, then plain hill 1ne. The worker then made a mine in place, then moved to the river grass 1e to cottage. The cottage was started 5 turns after Pots came in.
Pyramids in 17 turns

2nd Trial, 2 axemen:
I chopped three forests, and whipped 2 axes.
After the first forest chop (river grass 1e), I moved the worker to the forest plains hill 1ne. Since the capital started on an axe (with 80/450 on Pyr, 25 turns), I set the worker to mine the hill (8 turns). This way the forest chop wouldn't go to the axe. I whipped when there were 2 hammers left on the axe. Pyr in 21.
Chop comes in - Pyr in 16
Reset capital to build 2nd axe
Worker moves to river grass 2e, sets to cottage (again to avoid sending the chop to the second axe), also MM the capital to avoid growth into unhappiness.
Whip second Axe with 4? hammers to go, MM into starvation to maximize hammers (10 hammers per turn at size 2)
As soon as 1st whip happiness drops I let the city grow.
Chop comes in: Pyramids in 20 turns

I can see the value of the second method - and it may be able to be tweaked further. We wind up with a mine, a cottage, 2 axemen. Unfortunately we finish with some unhappiness which caps our size at 3. But the biggest drawback is we don't get the Pyramids until 3 turns later than the first version.

A possible blend of the two could give us a single axeman and the Pyramids in the time frame of the first, but I'll have to do some more testing. In the mean time I have to do some work here

 

[dr_s]

Well, we're producing 8 per turn, so that's 16 per turn for the pyramids, counting the doubling for stone. That's 90 in five turns. My suggestion above would produce 60 in five turns for the pyramids by building an axeman for four turns, then whipping on the last turn. So we delay the pyramids by two turns for each axeman we build+whip. I don't think that will spell the difference. (Of course whipping also reduces the population, so the effect is somewhat greater that I've calculated here.)

Maybe we could do this. Put 8 into an axeman then put the pyramids on the queue. Then we would have an axeman ready to whip in case of emergency. Of course, that still costs us one turn.

I agree with Peter that the AI will tend to have lots of military, and I don't know how early the AI will attack. I have been archer-rushed by the AI in Vanilla before, however, and I did get DOW'd fairly early in one of my test games. I don't think that building one or two axemen will cost us the pyramids, assuming we do it right so that we get overflow for the pyramids and chop one or two forests.

As for chopping the plains grassland tile versus the hill, having a tile to build a cottage on is definitely useful. But of course we don't have pottery yet, so we can't cottage it right now anyway. The real thing we need to decide is how many forests we want to chop, and how many we need to leave for health reasons.

@lazarillo, I agree with the others, you should play, so long as you have the time to participate. Playing the turnsets actually doesn't take much time in this particular game, because we only have one city and not very many units. You can always take short turnsets if you're uncomfortable taking longer ones.