Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 17, 2008.
Is Military Tradition just the one tech off of our "beeline" path?
I'm afraid not. We'd need Music and Nationalism to get it, neither of which are on our wish list. So that would be three techs off of our beeline path, and not cheap techs either.
Too many posts for me to digest. Sorry folks, week-end is awful. I'll try to catch up toorrow, there seems to be a lot inside that could change our strategy apprently (no more troops hu ???).
Anyway probably good to not skip Renata since he seems to be more inline than I am
Not to throw a damper on things, but if Toku conquers one of our neighbors, then he could reach us by land. We'll see it coming in the unlikely event it happens.
Another possible, but perhaps more difficult, PA victory condition is cultural. With our wonders, we should have no problem going legendary. If the right partner is close to that with two cities, we can gift them GAs in the appropriate cities and they will probably culture bomb.
I'd still rather win by diplomacy and leave the PA as the fallback.
Right, but to attack anyone he would first need to declare on them, and he never declares unless he is stronger. And currently he is last in rank.
True, I didn't remember that. Still, with everything focused on producing GSes and research, nudging someone towards culture might be more difficult. But we should definitely keep it in mind, I think it's likely culture or space that will be the possible PA wins. But as you say, only as backups if diplo doesn't work out.
Tomorrow I'll finally take some time to look at that spreadsheet, to see what we could do about it. The road to GLib still seems pretty obvious, but after that it's a different story. We need to balance growth with happiness, and make sure we get that Lighthouse at the proper time. After that it's NE of course, then possibly HE. After that we don't have that much to build at all... Right, tomorrow... now...
I think it's a bit early to consider the Heroic Epic, considering we have one un-promoted warrior...
I don't have time to do a full spreadsheet, but I do have a few suggestions.
Washington will trade us Priesthood for Polytheism. Then, after we have Priesthood, Elizabeth will probably trade Code of Laws (and maybe also Sailing) for Literature. That would be a big jump toward Civil Service.
Happiness 8, population 8 (after this turn)
+1 furs - can cancel gift to Washington in 2 turns
+1 silver mine
+1 temple (after Judaism spreads)
+1 temple (if we are lucky enough to have Confucianism spread)
+1 whales (after optics)
And we might be able to trade for wine or other luxuries at some point
And then it only takes Drama, a theater and the Globe Theater to solve the happiness problem forever. So let's grow those citizens. We can keep them happy. Build Great Library -> Barracks -> Lighthouse -> National Epic
We do not need the road on the sheep or the iron mine yet. I would chop the riverside grassland forest and cottage it. Another option is mining the riverside hill. Let's chop for quick hammers and improve tiles our citizens will actually work.
@zyxy: I'm a "she".
Not sure where you get that "probably" from. CoL is almost twice as expensive as Literature (350 vs 200), and Lizzy won't trade monopoly techs before 40% know it, so I would rate it nothing short of a miracle if we could trade for it.
I agree with your conclusion. I just thought I'd point out that if we get Judaism, switching to it as a state religion will also give +1 happy, even without a temple. I don't think we will need to build any temples at all actually, we should be able to manage the growth until Globe anyway.
I agree to some extent. Though I would like to point out that connecting the Sheep means we have another health resource that we could potentially gift away for a while. Also, if we keep growing, it won't be all that long before we see some health problems at home as well, in particular if we chop more forests.
... and unkle isn't zyxy.
New attempt at a spreadsheet:
I propose to postpone the completion of the Barracks as long as possible, we can switch it back in again after 10 turns to avoid losing invested hammers to rot. That allows us to complete the Lighthouse first, as well as a Scout.
The unfortunate discrepancy between the different "bonus" columns is beginning to irk me. One (hammers) represents bonus to raw hammers from buildings/traits/resources applied on the gross production, the other (research) assumes that such bonuses are added already and instead represents the bonuses (prereq+contacts) applied on the net beaker production. Oh well.
With whom should we trade?
* Washington won't trade sailing.
* We don't have anything Asoka wants.
* Tokugawa won't trade.
* Elizabeth will trade sailing + (priesthood/archery/meditation) for literature. Elizabeth will also trade monotheism for literature.
* Huayna Capac will trade sailing + archery for alphabet + polytheism. (He wants both alphabet and polytheism in any case, so the only reason to turn down archery is WFYABTA.)
So, I propose we trade literature for monotheism (enabled organized religion) and alphabet + polytheism for sailing + archery.
p.s. Niklas your spreadsheet still has Barracks listed at 1040 BCE.
Right, I forgot to remove that mention, thanks.
I say we trade for Sailing and nothing else, either Literature for Sailing with Lizzy or Alpha+Masonry for Sailing with HC (he would accept that, right? I don't have the game here now). I'd probably prefer the latter considering Lizzy's relative advanced-ness, and already liking us quite well. Only reason I could see for not trading with HC that is that HC might be someone unknown's worst enemy. Then again, so could Lizzy, and HC at least doesn't have religion demerits with the Buddhists/Hindus/Christians out there.
I could see us trading for Mono, but we're not going to revolt to OR before CS anyway, so I see no real reason to trade for that now. If we can't get Philo for Pacifism, we might want to trade for Mono then and go OR instead (better than nothing). But if we could get our hands on Philo somehow, we might as well skip Mono for the rest of the game. And Archery, well... WFYABTA seems good enough reason to me, in particular since we don't need neither Archers nor the power rating boost.
So I propose Alphabet+Masonry for Sailing with HC.
Actually, HC will trade sailing or sailing+archery for alphabet. No need to offer either masonry or polytheism.
Capac will also give Sailing for Masonry + Poly, and in this case we can avoid giving away Alphabet.
We can gift Poly to Washington, to get relations up. Better that we do it than someone else.
Nice spreadsheet. One potential problem is that it assumes a lot to be available for trade when we need it. If it isn't, then we get happines problems and more...
We can hook up the sheep sooner, right after the silver mine, without serious loss. I prefer that, because it is so difficult to trade 100 turns of resources to all potential friends.
Still, it is good to know.
Road on sheep first lets us gift sheep 8 turns, but delays our cottage growth by two turns. That's OK with me. However, if we hook up sheep first, we should separately chop and cottage rather than doing both simultaneously, or the later chop will delay national epic by one turn.
Delay is only one turn actually, since we weren't going to work the cottage for the first two turns anyway. I'm fine with that, we can work a coastal tile for the first of those turns while waiting. And I certainly see the merit of giving away the Sheep 8 turns sooner.
Speaking of which - the Cows are ours again, we should gift them away. Asoka this time? In the long run, he's more important to us.
I agree with gifting Poly to Washington. (He won't give Sailing for it, would he?)
I didn't understand Chris' comment about HE and only having a regular warrior until I read that it has a level 4 unit as prerequisite. I'd forgotten all about that. So yeah, no HE for a while then.
Quick reading (longer post to come...): have we given up Globe Theater ?
No, but we don't want to build it until we really need it. It's a 300 hammer build with no bonuses (except industrious of course), so it'll take a good while to build. We'd rather build the stuff that will give us immediate benefits first. But we should definitely make sure that we build Globe before we grow out of bounds. EDIT: In case that's what you were implying - Globe is a national wonder so we're in no contention with others over it. So we haven't "given up" on it in that sense.
Looking at the future past CS: It seems to me that a reasonable beeline once CS is in is Paper -> Education, and if we're first to Education (perhaps unlikely) then sprint for Liberalism and take Astronomy as the free tech. Is it feasible that AI under these circumstances will not research Liberalism before 0 AD? That's a rough upper bound on when we could get it I think.
For the record, here's the latest version of the spreadsheet with the worker actions updated:
Quick reference (unless someone speaks up and shoots this down):
* Trade Poly+Masonry for Sailing with HC.
* Gift Poly to Washington.
* Gift Cows to Asoka.
And that's all, right?
Separate names with a comma.