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SGOTM 08 - Smurkz

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Sep 9, 2008.

  1. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 8 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

    The Game
    This will be the first Beyond the Sword SGOTM. Thanks, Gyathaar :thumbsup:

    Following his recent honeymoon in the Far East, Gyathaar, aka Suryavarman II of the Khmer Empire, is just Crazy About Wonders. He has decreed that he will win a glorious victory and that his total Wonder points per turn played will then be the envy of the world.

    Suryavarman II is Expansive and Creative, with the Ballista Elephant to assist in acquiring Wonders he can't build himself, and the Baray to allow him to build the Hanging Gardens.

    It is a Normal speed, Monarch difficulty game on a Standard map. All victory conditions are enabled.

    The Objective
    The winners will be the teams who achieve a Victory by any means, and who score the highest Wonder Points per Turn Played.

    Five Wonder Points are awarded for each Wonder controlled by the Team, and are displayed as the 'xx' in "yy from Wonders (xx/310)" when you hover your mouse over your score in the game screen. 310 is the maximum Wonder Points score you can achieve if you control all Wonders and National Wonders.

    Versions
    This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.17, using HoF Mod 3.17.001.

    If a later BtS patch is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in version 3.17 before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.

    As there is no Mac version of BtS, Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows version on their system.

    Schedule
    • The Team threads will open shortly.
    • The start files will be published on Friday, September 12.
    • Please try to complete the game within three months of the start date.
    Starting Position
    Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.


    Map Parameters
    • Playable Leader/Civ - Suryavarman II of the Khmer Empire.
    • Characteristics - Expansive and Creative, starts with Hunting and Mining
    • Unique Unit - Ballista Elephant (War elephant)
    • Unique Building - Baray (Aqueduct)
    • Rivals - 7 AI civs
    • World size - Standard
    • Difficulty - Monarch
    • Landform - Big and Small
    • Environment - Temperate climate, medium sea level
    • Game Speed - Normal
    • Everything else - Default
    Notes
    • Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
    • Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the highest Wonder Score per Turn Played, and the Wooden Spoons for the finishing team with the lowest final score.
    • You can capture wonders, or build them yourself. Remember you cannot capture national wonders.
      A victory in turn 100 with 10 wonders controlled gets the same score as winning in turn 200 with 20 wonders..
      In BtS the max number of wonders is 62, including corp headquarters and holy city buildings, national wonders, palace and world wonders.
    • All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.
    • Do NOT view any other team threads until you have submitted your last save - win, lose or retire.
    • Do NOT download any other team's save.
    Enjoy your game, and please be nice to each other :D
     
  2. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

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    Roster:
    • Methos - UP!
    • Niklas - On Deck!
    • unkle - Warming up
    • ChrisShaffer
    • Backwards Logic
    • Renata
    • Xcalibrator
    • r_rolo1 - Just played

    Latest version of spreadsheet: http://www.box.net/shared/crfkmzk95b
     
  3. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

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    Turnlogs:
    4000 BC - 3200 BC (0-20): [Niklas] Capitol, Yosmurkzhappy, settled on turn 1, 2E of starting location to claim the second fish source and marble in BFC. Research Animal Husbandry while building a worker, then Fishing. The worker rounds up some cows. We meet Shaka, then lose our scout to a hungry bear.
    3200 BC - 2760 BC (20-31): [Renata] First workboat completes and goes to net fishes. Bronze Working is researched and reveals copper on mystery hill, which we've partially mined already, after first mining the gold.
    2760 BC - 2360 BC (31-41): [Backwards Logic] Second workboat nets second fish shoal. Our scouting warrior finds pigs, and that we're on a small continent. We learn The Wheel and Pottery, and build one warrior too many. :)p)
    2360 BC - 1960 BC (41-51): [Methos] Hari-smurkz settled N-NE of Pigs on turn 45. We learn Writing and complete a Granary. A slight mistake puts us behind plan on the worker in Hari-smurkz. We now have Open Borders with Shaka and a warrior starts moving west through his lands.
    1960 BC - 1560 BC (51-61): [Xcalibrator] We learn Sailing and Masonry, and complete a Library and Lighthouse in Yosmurkzhappy. We discover Ulundi, which seems like a nice place to be, and spot the first barbarian warrior. Hari-Smurkz completes a worker who builds a pasture on the Pigs.
    1560 BC - 1440 BC (61-64): [r_rolo1] Rolo starts playing, but stops rather soon as he forgets to whip the settler according to plan. Back to the drawing board...
    1440 BC - 1160 BC (64-71): [r_rolo1] With a new plan in hand, we discover Mathematics and chop a few forests, and settle Smurkz-harapura 4W-1N of capitol, to work the Clams (now with net), and later the Cows and Dumbos. We have three nice trade routes with Shaka. We gift Fish to Shaka for free.
    1160 BC - 850 BC (71-81): [unkle] We connect our Dumbos, and learn Aesthetics and Mysticism. Our exploring galley meets João, but we have no idea where his lands are.
    850 BC - 625 BC (81-90): [ChrisShaffer] We complete our first wonder - Pyramids! And there was much rejoicing, after some initial anarchy to get us into Representation. We also got our first Great Scientist for an Academy in Yosmurkzhappy. We gift Pigs to Shaka, but Shaka now has his own Fish and are not interested in getting them from us anymore.
    625 BC - 575 BC (90-92): [Niklas] We connect Marble and start the Great Library... or so we thought, but thanks to a bug in BtS :gripe:, Marble isn't connected when it should be. We have to fiddle around with some delaying stopgap measures until we're lucky to have it connected on turn 92. Stupid game.
    575 BC - 425 BC (92-98): [Niklas] With Marble connected at long last, we finally start building the Great Library, and research Alphabet. Stop when it is completed for discussion.
    425 BC - 375 BC (98-100): [Niklas] We decide to trade for Agriculture and Iron Working, and also complete the Great Lighthouse in Harapura.
    375 BC - 125 BC (100-110): [Backwards Logic] We complete the Great Library in Yosmurkzhappy, and our research picks up for real. It is joined by the National Epic not far after. We also research Construction, Drama and Meditation, and our second Great Scientist can then bulb Philosophy. This gives us Taoism, founded in Smurkz-harapura. The build-up for taking Shaka out has begun.
    125 BC - 100 AD (110-119): [Renata] We complete the Parthenon, the second to last of our planned wonders. We research Horseback Riding and now we have a Ballista Elephant, ho ho ho. We then go on to research Music and get a Great Artist, saving him for Civilized Jewellers in a few thousand years... We finally find João's lands too.
    100 AD - 300 AD (119-127): [Xcalibrator] We get a Great Scientist who gets a new home in Yosmurkzhappy. We learn Priesthood and Code of Laws. Oh, and we Declare war on Shaka.
    300 AD (127): [Methos] We deliver the first strike to Shaka, totally decimating his counterstack with little losses on our side. From here on it will be mop-up.
    300 AD - 325 AD (127-128): [Xcalibrator] Heal our forces a bit.
    325 AD - 350 AD (128-129): [Xcalibrator] Turns played in piecemeal fashion to allow for discussion. Forces amassed outside KwaDuzuka.
    350 AD - 375 AD (129-130): [r_rolo1] We capture KwaDuzuka!
    375 AD - 400 AD (130-131): [r_rolo1] We learn Civil Service and immediately revolt to Bureaucracy, in the middle of a burning war.
    400 AD - 500 AD (131-135): [r_rolo1] We capture uMgungundlovu.
    500 AD - 580 AD (135-139): [r_rolo1] We capture Nobamba and lay siege to Ulundi. And we also complete Hanging Gardens, increasing our population greatly.
     
  4. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Because I create each team thread by copying the last one I created. You were *very* quick! I've deleted the ones with copies of your post, and I'll recreate them.
     
  5. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

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    Sorry sorry sorry. :blush: :D
     
  6. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

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    I see we're off to a roaring start. :)

    I'm ten or so minutes behind AlanH, I see. Does that mean I'm only semi-obsessive?
     
  7. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

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    Well, I refreshed the SGOTM forum page every 10 seconds or so after I saw the first thread go live, and as soon as ours came up I posted the fastest I could. Whaddya mean obsessive? :confused: :p
     
  8. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

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    Hello. Subscription post so I don't forget.
     
  9. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Grrr.... Looks like I'm fourth in. I remember when I used to always be one of the first two.
     
  10. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Reporting in. May not have much time to post deep thoughts until the weekend but I'll at least keep up on the reading.
     
  11. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

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    You snooze, you lose. :shifty: :p

    I've attached an Excel sheet with a list of all the wonders in the game, along with their various pre-requisites and whatever else seemed useful. Just so we're all on the same page as to what we're dealing with.

    Edit: Hiya, XCalibrator, and welcome to Smurkz!
     

    Attached Files:

  12. unkle

    unkle Chieftain

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    unkle checking in :salute: :D
    Hi to all Smurkz team members, especially those I've never played with. We all know that we want to move to first or second spot this time ;)

    So glad the game starts, so sad to be off the internet (still...) :cry:
    It means that I'll have to lurk until further notice.
     
  13. unkle

    unkle Chieftain

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    just added few info in Renata's sheet to give an idea of wonder# per tech, and wonder per ressources as weel as cheapness of wonders.

    Seems to me that even before starting the game we need to target victory date / wonder list. I hope the military option is not the easiest one...
    Also I tend to think that if wonder all give the same amounts of points, religion and holy cities are a good way of diversifing the income of wonders: building based (to get these GPP for GProphets, Stonehedge/Oracle/...) and GP-based for the holy buildings. Of course getting some GE is potentially better (but GE are harder to get than GP).

    Keeping some brainstorming open, do we think we can have a timeline for techs ? That would allow us (assuming we can get all wonders we want or nearly) and assuming a good production city how much wonders we could build in time. I tend to feel that early victories will be better, but checking that could be great.

    Last question: do vassals wonders / PA wonders count ? I doubt it bu who knows ?
     
  14. unkle

    unkle Chieftain

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    Last post: I am waiting for people ideas, but am also willing to do some of the work ;) of course (but if someone has already done it :D )
     
  15. unkle

    unkle Chieftain

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    Attached Files:

  16. ChrisShaffer

    ChrisShaffer Board gamer

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    Checking in. I'll probably be more of a lurker for a while until I get my computer fixed.
     
  17. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

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    :wavey: Welcome Xcalibrator and Backwards Logic to team Smurkz! And r_rolo1 too, once he signs in. :)

    And welcome back to everyone else, glad to see you here, even if some of you are "only" lurking. Adding to the discussion is more important that playing, so you're no less important to the team. :)

    This is just a quick post since I have a few minutes of waiting. To answer unkle - PA would count (right? you share points?) but not vassals.

    Looking at a potential timeline, I'm fairly convinced that a late win will be better than an early one. This is because the very early game contains something of a 100-turn runway before you start "for real". After those turns, wonders will come fairly unevenly spaced, but still much faster than during that first runway. So I believe that the best we could do is aim to get all wonders except Space Elevator which comes decidedly later than all others.

    This means to me that it's really a question of two things - researching fast fast fast to get to the last wonder as fast as possible, and "backfill" older wonders through conquest. We don't need to rush for wonders early, we'll have plenty time later on to capture the towns that built them. So we should play the start like we would a normal research game, going military only if it would help our research (likely), and then do an all-out conquest near the very end.

    What strikes me as interesting is the variety of GPs that we need to generate to secure all the shrines and corporations. That's where I envision this game will most deviate from "your normal space race" game.
     
  18. unkle

    unkle Chieftain

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    Just checking, but the game is normal speed = 500 turns ?
     
  19. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Yes, normal speed = 500 turns.

    I like Niklas's outline, and would like to add a few things to keep in mind or think about. First, how do we take most advantage of our leader's unique characteristics? Creative gives +2 culture so we don't need to bother with Stonehenge (unless we quickly find stone and can't resist). We also get +100% production of library (hurray!), theatre, and colosseum. Expansive gives us +2 health (nice for growing big) and, perhaps most importantly, we get +25% production on workers. The baray replaces the aqueduct and has a +1 food bonus so we should expedite those. The ballista replaces the war elephand and I believe the only bonus is that it targets mounted units first outside cities, which strikes me as not so useful since our enemies will usuallybe cowering in their cities as we attack them.

    Perhaps we want to trade away our marble, stone, etc. to Industrious leaders so they'll spend more time building wonders for us to capture instead of building themselves defensive forces (after we've built things we want ourselves, such as [perhaps] the Great Library and Pyramids). I've never built the Great Wall, but am intrigued by some of the strategy articles pointing out the power of settled Great Spies, and if we come across stone early I'd be inclined to go for it.

    As I'm sure is planned, we should keep a running graph of wonders/turn to optimize our victory date. And we should plan to run slavery at the very end to whip out some of the less useful national wonders (at least in this game) that we are likely to skip early, such as National Park, Hermitage, etc. (as long as losing the pop doesn't put us below the victory criterion, of course).

    One thing I worry about is an AI diplo victory via the Apostolic Palace. I've never understood exactly how that works, and had a real shocker a couple games ago when Huayna Capac beat me on Immortal with a really early diplo win--I believe it was [edit: 1030 AD], but I'll have to check on that tonight.
     
  20. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

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    The way I see it is we need really 3 types of Great People to max out our wonder potential:
    Great Prophets
    Great Engineers
    Great Scientists

    Now, we probably won't need the prophets as the AI tend to get lots of them, and the ones that do get them are normally the ones who found religions. I think ideally we should target whoever's religion spreads the most and nab the holy city. Not only will this be a wonder for us, it will also finance our war machine, which from early discussion suggests we will capture more wonders than build.

    Now, hopefully we can snag two major production sites early, with the capital as one and another settled. This way, we can split up the mids and GL into two separate cities - one science, one engineers. The scientists are helpful in any game, and the engineers would allow us to rush key wonders as we come across them in other cities, so as not to spoil our GP farms.

    As for the Great Wall - the settled Great Spy strategy is awesome, especially if all EP's are focused on one civ. However, the wall would also have to be built in the capital and the settled Great Spies would hurt our either Great Engineer or Great Scientist potential, whichever one we decided to stick in the capital. I think for this game, capturing the wall (hopefully early) should be the viable strategy.

    Now for those who don't know, I'm a Noble/Prince player who typically likes to build rather than war and when I've been able to do it splitting Great Library and the Pyramids up into two separate cites has been extremely profitable. Of course, we can also just ignore what I say and do things another way too ;)
     

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