SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Try to put in this way:
Settling on corn we'll loose 2 food, 3 after Bio.
But we'll gain the fish = 2 gold+5 food with WB, 6 with LH.
and the lake will give 2gold+3 food with LH.
Since there's no room for another city to grab that fish and the lake with LH, settling on corn will give us +8 food once we'll have a LH.
No other location reachable in 2 turns wil be so food rich.

Also, i'll avoid other locations, thare can be a resource (copper, horses).

Guys, please, follow your captain, you'll never regret this.

Sweeta, where you are???

 

[Mesix]

The tile one to the north of the corn will give us all of those benefits. It is fresh water from the lake, has access to the coast, and gives us access to fish and TWO corn farms. A total of 18 food from three tiles after biology will make a tremendous GP farm.

 

[unclethrill]

So the difference between BLub's and Mesix's choice is that the forest Mesix wants to settle in could potentially have another resource and we lose the forest for production later. Plus by my count, on the corn gets us 12 land squares in the BFC while 1N of Corn gets us 8.
I'm good either way so I'll follow our fearless leader's suggestion.

 

[Mesix]

If we settle north of the lake, we would get more land tiles. We won't know for sure what the coastline looks like or how much land (or additional resources) there are to the north unless we scout in that direction. If the coastline touches the square on the north side of the lake, it would be a better spot. What exactly is the downside to settling to the north and getting both corn farms and the fishing resource? Especially if we are planning to revolt to change civics on turn 1 and settle on turn 2?

 

[Mesix]

On an unrelated note, we should probably discuss out late game strategy early on so that we can plan accordingly. Are we going to do a Communism/Workshop combo to build space ship parts? Are we going to found corporations and hoard resources for them? Are we going to settle great people or use them to bulb? These kind of decisions should be made early so that we can plan as we go. This is especially important on quick speed where 2-3 turn sets can get us to the classical age.

 

[BLubmuz]

Agree to begin discussion of long-term strategy early, say after we meet our first neighbor (if any).

Your points about food can be good, but not enough to convince me.
We'll surely have more land and more forests settling on the coastal corn.

If i consider a good location 1N of lake, i would have follow my initial plan to settle along the river and kept this site for city #2.

Remember that forests (with Forest Preserve) are important for happiness more than for health. And i can bet it will be very important to build a lot of those improvements.

No, like a rock: settle on the corn. We'll be glad to do this, trust me.

 

[unclethrill]

Okay so it's settled. We move to the corn and get a screenshot.

 

[greatbeyond]

I'm running a couple of tests out to about turn 60 to see what the difference between the Corn (Site B) and 1N of the Corn (Site A) really is. Site A would include both Corn, the two Grass hills, and the fish. If there is another sea resource in reach, it makes it that much better. But as I said, let's see what the test results are.

The spot 1N of the lake loses the eastern hill, so I believe it is inferior to both other sites.

As for more land to the north, there isn't any. If you zoom the map all the way in, you'll see that. As I said before, the test map is a duplicate of everything we can see. Now, there is another Grass to the 1N2W in the next row above the coast, but can't believe there is much more with the Ice so close.

We have the ability from the start to build lumbermills on the wooded grassland for 2 food and 2 hammers. , so with a couple of bonus tiles, (Corn and Fish) to drive growth, we'll have lots of Hammers for quite a while. Do not count on the Copper being in or near our BFC. It was there when the map was autogenerated and not placed by me, but I don't trust the designer to leave any nearby.

 

[greatbeyond]

Let's clarify Scout moves where? I had suggested 1E2S

We could move the Settler to the tile 1N of the corn. It will cost us 1 turn but if it reveals another sea resource, then Site A becomes that much better.

As I said in my previous post. Let's wait and test the two spots. I need some evidence to suggest which spot is better. So far I have seen the results of my tests but no results from anyone else yet. Call it a lack of faith, but I need something solid to base my decision on.

Alas, wherefore art thou, Sweetachson.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Oh, I'm here alright. Actually, I was out all day yesterday. Anyway, the problem as I see it is that we don't all agree on the scout move Honestly, this is always the hardest decision in the game!

As I see it, we can afford to settle turn 2. This is a ludicrous suggestion in a quick game, but if we're revolting anyway, what do we lose? The 1 free beaker? Anyway, this means we should get the best out of our settler and scout. If sites A and B as recently detailed by gb are the only 2 we're looking at with the current resources, then I suggest moving the scout 2s1e to the forest hill, and the settler 2n (around the lake of course), giving us a good coverage. Alternatively, scout goes 1n2e, settler 2e, although he can't reach site B then, so that's not the best Anyway, you get the idea, I think we can get some good fog busting out of these 2 before the 2nd turn.

What exactly is the downside to settling to the north and getting both corn farms and the fishing resource? Especially if we are planning to revolt to change civics on turn 1 and settle on turn 2?

A good point. Does the extra early food outweigh the later? I might break out my spreadsheet again.

 

[WastinTime]

Hi gang,

Mesix invited me to come and lurk. (for the new folks, I was with 5th Element for the past 2 SG's). I'll try not to comment on the game specifically, but I can provide some pointers for basic space colony BTS. I just submitted a 1868 AD finish for minor gauntlet 69. That's OCC, but some things still apply to your game. It's even on standard/monarch too. The biggest thing I learned was a typical vanilla OCC city might be around 800-1000 beakers/turn by the end. In BTS you can get to ~1600 in just one city. The secret? National Park. Be sure to abuse this wonder. It goes nicely with Oxford, or maybe NatEpic. Fortunately in OCC, you can do both. You want a city with about 15 forest preserves, so you have to hold off on the ax. Your starting location is almost perfect. 2 corn and tons of forest. When you run Environmentalism it gets really good. Since you even start with that civic, this seems like something you must take advantage of. You'll need to get to Biology as fast as possible. I did it on turn 105. I would use the pyramids to get there.

Quick speed makes wars unlikely unless a neighbor is very close. I'd plan for a peaceful 6-city expansion to get oxford up.

The rumor is this game has "meaner barbs" or something like that. Well, I can't imagine they actually made the barbs act any differently. He just makes a map, he doesn't change the code. My guess at what it means is the map has some barbarian nation set up already. After you run out of peaceful expansion room. The barb cities will be the easiest to grab. Since Monarch researches so slowly, don't be afraid to gift tech to make everyone happy. No reason to fight the AI civs if there are barb cities.

Should be interesting.

 

[Simon_c]

Hi all,

I've been following the discussion, but really have very little to add. I feel I may be somewhat out of my depth on this game if the discussion of where to move the scout involves 3 pages of threads and test games....

My gut feeling for the city is NNE, but I think on the corn would work due to the two hills. Maybe being able to build lumber mill changes gut feeling.

I the test game I got mullered by barbs. They seemed to arrive in many more numbers that I was expecting in monarch. And I only had a warrior who was defending home while I was pillaged back to the start. I'll replay a few more times I think to get the hang of fast.

 

[berserks01]

Based on what WT said and that blue circle in the screenshot, how about moving the scout 2 east instead? I think there's another food resource somewhere up there (most likely a seafood) that we can hopefully include in our capital's BFC.

I don't think it matters that the capital be the GPeople farm, instead of the second city or third city. What does matter is that with more food resources, spitting out settlers and workers would be faster without chopping.

 

[greatbeyond]

To be clear, the Scout is on the northern Corn. Moving him 2E will put him in the ocean.

I suggest moving the Settler 2N1E. The reasons:
He'll be able to settle in place or either of the other two spots the next turn. This spot also reveals almost as many tiles as the spot just north of the lake. If we move to that spot first, it would take 2 turns to settle at Site A.

Either way, move the Scout first and take a screenshot. If that doesn't reveal anything, move the Settler and take a SS.

I should have the results of my tests to post this evening.

 

[berserks01]

Opps I meant 2 west.

 

[unclethrill]

Okay, I played the first turn about 30+ times and here are my observations.

There are two good choice for the scout 2S1E or 1N2W. 2S1E is the farthest that he can move away from the squares we already see and is on a hill revealing the most other squares. 1N2W on the other hand gives us a better picture of the area around which we are planning to settle.The fact that we are discussing this as long as we are is really ridiculous because nobody has suggested that we move the settler in the same direction as the scout except Mesix. The opening move of the scout only counts if we have a reasonable expectation to move the settler towards what he discovers. I don't believe that is the case based on the current discussions. If it is a possibility then the best choice is 1N2W. My opinion is that the scout will reveal nothing of value as related to the first turn or the placement of the settler if we move him in a southerly direction but will just reveal more map.

So in summary, move the scout 1N2W and be done with him. A screenshot then helps to decide the placement of the settler.

The next question is the settler. Everybody seems to have a different opinion so here are my observations.

1. If we settle him on the corn, we get 1 extra food in the capital to aid in the building of a worker and a settler. We also get 8 forests for chopping, LM or FP. On top of that we can get a fish and a corn resource for food in the long run. The health benefit of settling on the corn to get the +1health early is useless since we will be revolting to environmentalism.
2. Settle one north of the corn gets us both corns with farms and the fish. We lose the forest that the settler settles on and get 3 other forests in our BFC. Again we will not have a problem with health so getting the corn a little later is a non-issue there.
3. Settle one north of the lake gets us both corn, the fish and at least 5 forest but possibly more depending on what the scout reveals.
4. If we revolt on turn 0 then a settle on turn 1 it is fine since there is only 1 turn of Anarchy. Moving 2N does open up the view a bit but I don't think it is enough to justify waiting to settle on turn 2. Yes we only lose 1 hammer of production but we also lose 3 food for that one turn and on quick every turn is important.
a. If we move straight to the corn and settle or move 2N and then settle on the Corn on turn 1 and revolt on turn 0, we grow to size 2 on turn 5. So if the goal is to settle on the corn, then it makes sense to move 2N first since there is nothing gained on the the first pop growth for settling on turn 0 or 1.
b. If the goal is to settle in the forest 1N of corn, then the first choice is to move there on turn 0, revolt and settle on turn 1. This gets a pop growth on turn 6. The second choice is to move 2N on turn 0, revolt and move to 1E on turn 1. This allows for settling on turn 2 and a pop growth on turn 7.
c. Settle 1N of lake gets us all the same as 1N of corn and more forests with the possibility of as many forests as settling on the corn.
5. I don't think the first city is a good choice for the National Park as there just isn't enough forests based on either settling position and forgoing the incredible potential for a capital in either of the two choices to get one surrounded by forests seems to be a bad choice. Based on this the difference between 3 forests or 8 forests seems to be cancelled out by the question of how much food we want in our capital. Our second city should focus on maximizing forests for the NP.

So in conclusion, my choices are to move the scout 1N2W and wait to decide if we settle 1N of the lake or 1N of the corn. Based on what the scout reveals we then move the settle either 2N to settle on turn 1 or 2N1E to settle on turn 1, revolt to PS and Environ. Settle on turn 1 and start building a WB to get the fish ASAP while not impeding growth of the city.

 

[Mesix]

The scout is already 1 NE of the settler at the start. If we move him NW (2 N of settler) he will still have one move remaining. He can then move W, NW, or N to reveal more of the map in that direction (which is beneficial to selecting our initial city placement).

I think that we should move the scout 1 NW and save with a screen shot. With the additional movement, we can scout further and make a more informed decision on the location to settle our first city. After the capital is in place, we can scout to the S or W to see what else in nearby.

 

[unclethrill]

The scout is already 1 NE of the settler at the start. If we move him NW (2 N of settler) he will still have one move remaining. He can then move W, NW, or N to reveal more of the map in that direction (which is beneficial to selecting our initial city placement).

I think that we should move the scout 1 NW and save with a screen shot. With the additional movement, we can scout further and make a more informed decision on the location to settle our first city. After the capital is in place, we can scout to the S or W to see what else in nearby.

I think this is the most prudent choice at this juncture.

 

[unclethrill]

Okay here are some other observations I made. Of course, mileage will vary based on who the actual other civs are but in the several test games I just clicked through this is what I saw:
1. GW built around turn 37
2. Oracle built on average turn 55 but once as early as 46
3. First Barbs around 38
4. SH built around turn 40
5. Barb Axemen only appeared in the first 70 turns on one game at turn 53 but they tore through my warriors.

I also looked at what is gained by taking Genetics or Electricity with the Oracle. Genetics gets us an advanced tech and +3 health but with the corn, fish and Environ, I had +15 health so the 3 extra is useless because I had only +5 happy. And it opens nothing in the tech tree.
Elec allows +1 gold for watermill and +2 for Windmill and allows Broadway. It also opens up Radio or Fission. Neither of which are useful or reachable in the early game. The wonders of elec and radio are useful if we want culture but the bonuses are not offset by the length of time it would take to build them.
I don't think either are a good investment with the Oracle if we plan to fight the AI early. In my opinion, the best bang for our buck will be to get CS with the oracle for an early war. It allows us to build MM as soon as we find iron and with that we can pummel anyone we want. The downside of CS is that based on how early barbs are coming at us we need archery. So if we get archery first, then get agri and wheel to pickup the corn, we have to get myst, medit, and PH to open the oracle, then we need writing, math and CoL before someone else builds the oracle. This is possible in my tests but we will need a little luck or we may miss it but if we happen to miss it we can still research CS by hand and rage.
If we plan to go the peaceful route then Feud. may be a good choice. Early LB will make us less of a target for quite a while. The other choice I see is MC. This allows us to get BW early to get our UU and then we could build the Colos. for the money and forges. A forge in the capital with all that health allows us to run an engineer so that maybe we can get a couple GE to pop wonders for us.

If we want to get an early war going, then CS or MC but if we are looking for a tech that we can sell to the AI to get as much as possible then Genetics is the best choice

 

[Mesix]

I like Genetics because it is a required tech that we can get out of the way early. Once we get to Rocketry in the midgame and build Apollo, we can build the SS Stasis Chamber right away while we are researching the other techs.

To a lesser extent, Genetics will also give us a tech to trade if we start getting behind the AI. As Unclethrill pointed out, Genetics is a dead end tech that does not open anything up, but it is valuable. If the AI players start teching ahead (or if we tech along a specialized path and leave a lot of un researched techs), Genetics can be traded away mid game to get all the techs that we skipped out on.