SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[berserks01]

Please keep in mind that moving the scout diagonally will always reveal more than moving him in a straight direction, but in this case I'm ok with moving him onto the hill to the east.

Also I thought that most of the suggestions were to move the scout to see what's revealed before deciding on where to move the settler, with the exception of that one suggestion where I said to move both the settler and the scout.

Anyway, it's a moot point. I do agree that we should decide on or take a vote on where to move the scout at least and take another screenshot to see what's reveal. We can decide more once the game gets going. We won't know all techs that will be visible when we build the Oracle (or if we even manage to pull it off).

 

[Mesix]

A couple of things I'd like to point out about our free techs.

First off, Great Library (and a few other wonders) are already obsolete so it is worthless to research the Asthetics to Music part of the tech tree.

Second, we start with Facism and Flight. What that means is once we research Rifeling we can build Paratroopers. Forget about an early war. Beeline Education...research Gunpowder, and then use Liberalism to pop Rifeling. If we want to take out any nearby AIs, our Paratroopers will tear through their Longbowmen/Archers at about turn 100-120.

Monistaries are already obsolete. Building missionaries to spread religion will require the Organized Religion civic since no cities built by any player will ever have monistaries.

 

[greatbeyond]

I' ll detail my thoughts and test in about 2 hours when I get home.

After a dozen tests I've come to the same conclusion about moving the scout north, as that is where we'll be settling.

 

[Mesix]

I played a couple more test games. In my recent game I built the Oracle on turn 49 to pop Genetics. I teched Liberalism on turn 120 to pop Rifeling (and was building Paratroopers). I was getting about 250 per turn at this point. This was with only 2 cities and I am sure we will do better with 4-6 cities early on.

I made an additional discovery about our advanced techs. Since we start out with Flight, we only need Rifeling to research Rocketry. If we beeline Gunpowder and then self research Rifeling, we can use Liberalism to pop Rocketry and start building the Apollo program. With Superconductors (starting tech) and Genetics (Oracle), we can start cranking out SS Thrusters and SS Stasis Chamber in the 1300s while we research the remaining techs.

 

[greatbeyond]

After running my last two comparative tests, I've come to the following conclusion:
If there is second ocean resource within range of the northern corn (Site B) we should settle there.
If there is a second ocean resource but it is outside the BFC of Site B, but within the BFC of Site A, we should settle there.
If there isn't any other Ocean resource in the BFC of either site, we should go with site B. If we are going to follow the strategy I have used. (You're right Blubmuz)

Site B grows slightly faster and has a little better Hammer output at first. This allows completing wonders a little quicker. Site A had better long term results because it can support a much larger population.

In most of the tests, I was able to complete the GW, Oracle, Pyramids, and Colossus without whipping. I was aided in this by forests growing on the two plains hills. This was much more important for Site A, as it doesn't have as much initial production(So much for "no random events" leveling the playing field) When no forest grew on them, there was a greater likelihood that without whipping we would not finish the above wonders before someone else did.

I was able to build the GW by turn 25 without whipping. This was fairly consistent, perhaps a turn or two or even three earlier is possible, especially if we whip. I was never beaten to the GW by the AI.

The Oracle was built around turn 47 without whipping. I thought this was good, but in my last test the AI built the Oracle on turn 43.

I was able to build the Pyramids around turn 67 without whipping. Again, in my last test, one of the AI built them on turn 59.

My conclusion is that we'll have to whip to ensure we get our wonders. It shouldn't be too much of a problem as we can grow pretty fast. The question is when do we whip, and the balance between growing for whipping and working low growth hammer tiles.

Research:
I have tested this tech line extensively.
Mining, Masonry, BW, Mysticism, Meditation, PH, Wheel, Pottery, MC.

There is very little chance of getting a CS slingshot unless the Oracle is the only wonder we try to complete and we prioritize our research over production. There is a chance that we may be able to research quick enough to take MC from the Oracle. After looking at all the options, I believe Electricity should be our choice, but MC is a good 2nd choice. The quicker we get it, the quicker we can build the Colossus, if we have Copper.

Barbs appear consistently on turn 34.

As for the Scout move him 1N1W, and assess what we see. After that, we can decide where to send him.

We can have 3 cities by ~turn 55 while still accomplishing all the above.

 

[Mesix]

Getting a lot of scientist early on seems to be the key.

I just played another test game and my tech rate was faster than the AI, but not as fast as my earlier game. In hind sight, the difference was happiness (needed to run extra scientists). The AI also traded me Calandar in the earlier game which was more happiness. The fast tech rate came from running four scientists in my capital and settling every GS that popped after the first (which built my Academy). I had four settled by turn 120.

We should make happiness and caste system a prioroty for a fast time. Running multiple scientists is very important. Building the Pyramids is also important for early Representation since all the scientists and settled GS will produce 3 extra per turn.

 

[Mesix]

@Greatbeyond: I don't think we need all those wonders. Wonders don't score us points like in the last game. On quick speed with our late game goals, many of them will be obsolete very quickly. I'm convinced that the only early wonders we really need are the Oracle and the Pyramids to do well.

We don't need to research (or pop) Metal Casting...we can trade for it easily. In all of my test games, I was able to trade CoL, CS, and/or Paper for all of the early techs.

After getting initial techs for resources we should research Priesthood (Oracle), Writing, CoL, Math, Civil Service, Paper, Education, Philosophy, Education, Gun Powder, Rifeling, Liberalism (pop Rocketry). This tech path should allow us to start building Apollo by about turn 120. If we use the Oracle to get Genetics, we can build SS components when Apollo finishes.

We need to shoot for a launch before turn 200 for the win.

 

[Mesix]

I really think that we need both farms to succeed. With fish and 2 corn farms our capital will be running 6 scientists after we tech CS.

We should settle all specialists in the capital after the first GS builds the Academy. After Education, the Capital will be the site for OU. By the end of the game it could be producing 1000+ per turn. A heavy forest city should be used to build National Forest and National Epic combo to ensure good GPP into the late game.

I could be persuaded to use the Oracle for CS to speed up the game, but I am convinced that we can have a faster finish with Genetics. I haven't had any problem self researching CS and winning the Liberalism race. Popping Rocketry with Liberalism seems like a must if we are aiming for the fastest finish.

 

[WastinTime]

(You'd actually run 7 scientists with corn-corn-fish.)

NatPark:
In my gauntlet, I've found that taking Biology free from Liberalism is best in order to get the National Park out ~7 turns sooner. At +300 beakers/turn (that's how good the national park is). You get an additional 2000+ beakers. If you don't do the Oxford/Natpark combo, it's still 200 beakers/turn.

And don't forget the additional 180 GPP per turn! if you go NatPark/NatEpic combo. That's over 1200 birth points in the seven turns. This is quick speed, so GP #10 is only 670.

Remember the NatPark also gives massive health and the preserves give massive happy. This city will grow huge and work every single tile. It makes a nice capitol with Oxford. You may want to compare the beakers Oxford gives with the GPP NatEpic gives. I wouldn't know which way to recommend without a test. (again, in OCC it's nice to have them both.)

 

[unclethrill]

After looking over Mesix's shoulder while he completed these test runs, I have to agree with him. Genetics seems like a good tech to sell to the world later in the game and the liberalism slingshot to Rocketry really seems like a winner. WT has a point about Bio but I think we need to be further into the game before we know which is the optimal choice.

 

[Mesix]

(You'd actually run 7 scientists with corn-corn-fish.)

NatPark:
In my gauntlet, I've found that taking Biology free from Liberalism is best in order to get the National Park out ~7 turns sooner. At +300 beakers/turn (that's how good the national park is). You get an additional 2000+ beakers. If you don't do the Oxford/Natpark combo, it's still 200 beakers/turn.

And don't forget the additional 180 GPP per turn! if you go NatPark/NatEpic combo. That's over 1200 birth points in the seven turns. This is quick speed, so GP #10 is only 670.

Remember the NatPark also gives massive health and the preserves give massive happy. This city will grow huge and work every single tile. It makes a nice capitol with Oxford. You may want to compare the beakers Oxford gives with the GPP NatEpic gives. I wouldn't know which way to recommend without a test. (again, in OCC it's nice to have them both.)

The free techs really change this game. In the OCC game you could not use Liberalism to pop Rocketry. Starting with Flight allows us to tech Rifling and pop rocketry with Liberalism. Without the free gift techs, Rocketry would require Chemistry, Steel, and Artillery to research. I think a lot of teams may miss this quick tech path to Rocketry which will shave 200+ years off the finish date.

As we get closer to Liberalism, we can see what the game looks like. If we find a nice city sopt with 15+ forests, we may want to get the NP earlier provided we can have workers build the FP tiles around it. We don't even have to work the FP to get the free specialists. Without the additional national wonders from OCC, the Forest city should probably have National Epic/National Forest. As specialists pop from the Forest city we can move them to settle in our capital (or wherever we decide to build OU) to get the maximum bonus for the Representation . With your advice, 7 scientists in the Capital will produce 42 raw . Settling GP will get us plenty more. The Forest City can produce complementary research while feeding GS to the Capital.

Another point about the free techs. We can build Laboratories early. Once we tech Astronomy (to build the Observatory prereq building) we can build Labs. That means that shortly after teching Liberalism we can max out our research buildings in those two (and maybe a few other) cities.

WT...I know you're semi retired and all, but maybe if you have an hour or so to kill, you could run a test game or two with the free techs that change this game slightly. I'm sure you will notice things that I missed and make advice that can add to our plan.

 

[WastinTime]

Liberalism (pop Rocketry). This tech path should allow us to start building Apollo by about turn 120. If we use the Oracle to get Genetics, we can build SS components when Apollo finishes.

We need to shoot for a launch before turn 200 for the win.

That's a fairly reasonable goal.
Here are some numbers from the quick/monarch/OCC/gauntlet:
NationalPark turn 105. Launching around t195 in the OCC. Now, I don't have to deal with barbs or other crazy stuff on your map, but it is just OCC. I would think a 12-15 city empire should launch around 180 if you plan to win the gold.

You will launch exactly 1 turn after you finish researching. So your tech path should focus on increasing beakers. Astronomy (for observ and instant lab, cus you have superconductors) seems very important. And, as I keep saying, Biology(NPark). Building space parts takes no time. Although it would be cool to finish Apollo at some record date. It won't help you launch any faster.

 

[WastinTime]

I If we find a nice city sopt with 15+ forests, we may want to get the NP earlier provided we can have workers build the FP tiles around it. We don't even have to work the FP to get the free specialists.

Exactly, you don't have to work the tiles and you will have all 15+ preserves up and instantly get the 15+ specialists. Way better than in the gauntlet. Think of this SG as two games. First, a race to Biology. Pull out all the stops. Lightbulb your way thru Education, PP, Astron, etc. I would not normally suggest lightbulbing, but NPark is just that freakin' good.

Sorry if I went on and on about the park. Maybe it's just the OCC that makes it so amazing. Head on over the the Gauntlet and give it a try.

 

[greatbeyond]

Well, we have both tested different tech paths. As I said before, this path is appropriate for the first 60 turns I've outlined. If we are going to go for the CS sling, it will need to be a priority from the start. I have not tested your path yet (perhaps tonight). I do fear that we might not get the Pyramids, because we'll have to emphasize research over production. That said, I'll give it a try.

The Wonders I've outlined are not for "wonder points" but to further our goals. The two you left out, GW and Colossus each were built for a specific reason.

I started out the first tests by building a military instead of the GW. In most of the tests the Barbs quickly became a very real problem, and detracted from the goal of researching quickly and building infrastructure. There are good uses for Barbs such as gaining unit experience and letting the Barbs build cities to be captured. Building the GW forces the AI to spend more time fighting the Barbs.
Of course this also depends on who our neighbors are.

The Colossus is simply to produce lots of gold. This is much more important on a map where we'll have lots of coastline. Something we don't know yet. I looked atthe game details to see if it would tell but it doesn't.

Once we see what the Scout discovers we should have an idea on how to proceed better

 

[berserks01]

Mesix's tech path seems the best bet to me. I doubt we'll have time/hammer for all those wonder GB built in his test game, though having stones/copper could potentially change that. Having the mids would be great since this seems more likely to be an SE game.

Beakers are the deciding factor here. Has anyone given thought to CFC's use of factories and having cities build beakers as a possible option to improve beaker output?

 

[Sweetacshon]

Excellent discussion... that I won't add to now. I do just want to be sure that everyone agrees to move the scout NW so we can get started. It's after midnight here, so I'll do this in the morning (7-8 hrs from now) and post a s/s. Any last words before I kick this off so we can get some momentum going (finally)?

 

[WastinTime]

GW seems like a great idea. I've never actually built it before (HoF has no barbs.) Does it expand to surround your borders as they grow and you add new cities? Or is it locked in to the borders you had at the time you built it? Such a newb question...

 

[berserks01]

All cities on the continent it is built on will be protected, but the wall itself will only surround those cities that are founded at the time it is completed.

 

[unclethrill]

Excellent discussion... that I won't add to now. I do just want to be sure that everyone agrees to move the scout NW so we can get started. It's after midnight here, so I'll do this in the morning (7-8 hrs from now) and post a s/s. Any last words before I kick this off so we can get some momentum going (finally)?

I agree. NW is the best choice.

 

[unclethrill]

GW seems like a great idea. I've never actually built it before (HoF has no barbs.) Does it expand to surround your borders as they grow and you add new cities? Or is it locked in to the borders you had at the time you built it? Such a newb question...

The only downsides to getting GW is that we have to spend resources early to build it which may cost us other wonders (oracle, Mids) and it will pollute the GP pool with a Spy points for the rest of the game.