ChrisFromLux
former 'Misfit'
I think that's about the only thing we have agreed on so far ... we won't settle on one of our few hills! We'll use them for windmills.
Don't you agree?
SGOTM 09 - Misfits
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I think that's about the only thing we have agreed on so far ... we won't settle on one of our few hills! We'll use them for windmills.
Don't you agree?
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
It's great to see our discussion and planning off to such a good start. I am looking forward to this game and think we will do well. We also need to start thinking about the roster order -- the first turnset will be a bit broken up as we move the scout, discuss, settle, discuss, etc. Does anyone have a preference for going first?
Given our arctic landscape, there could be a number of resources in the fog to the northwest. Game, furs, silver, marble, maybe crab or whales off shore? Whether anything could be as valuable as fresh water corn is a good question. Silver, maybe, for hammers and early commerce. Marble for hammers and bonus for early wonders.
But having tons of food early on is a good thing, for rapid growth and building workers and settlers. Both corn will be used most of the time. And since we can build forest preserves for more happiness, we can keep growing the capital far beyond what would normally be possible in the early game.
The wheel did come rather late for my test game, but my second and third cities were coastal so I was not losing trade route commerce. I eventually squeezed it in after Writing and AH (after BW, after Priesthood). If the real game map is more land and less water, we will definitely want to tech it earlier.
With the AIs starting with archers, even in a forest a warrior may have trouble. A lot depends on how near or far our neighbors are, and how quickly we find them. Starting with a scout will help, but we really do not know what to expect. Rivals, landform, and environment are unknown until we start. We could be on a highlands map, continents, pangaea, almost anything. AIs could be scarce, or we could be ultra-crowded and have to fight to gain enough land for any additional cities.
Too much is unknown to plan for war yet. Although I think we can all agree we must have a certain minimum amount of land to play a fast space race. If we can get it peacefully, we should -- wars cost time and resources. But we fight if we have to.
Yes, but pre-Liberalism, Printing Press, Democracy, and civic changes to US (over Rep or HR) and Free Speech (over Bur or Nationhood), a town is -1 food, -1 hammer, and even on commerce (if we get Electricity from Oracle). Plus the time to grow it.
Earlier commerce is worth more than later commerce, as the economy grows overall. So time to pay back the earlier losses will be longer. Especially if we are not in US and Free Speech for the full town bonuses, or the extra food was supporting Rep-boosted specialists.
At some point, building cottages and growing them to towns will be the right thing to do. Deciding just when that point is will be the trick. And depending on the land we have available, keeping the windmills and adding cottages on other tiles may be the way to go. We will have to see. I suspect using Emancipation to double the cottage growth rate will be important in timing the switch.
I would prefer to revolt to Enviro immediately (turn 0). We might not want/need to revolt to slavery immediately if we are building a wonder or a settler or whatever. The medium civic cost of Enviro should make no difference during the first 30 - 40 turns, so why not switch just in case?
And we might even meet Sitting Bull and get the favorite civic diplo bonus.
We can see both oil and uranium from the start, and a grassland tile is very unlikely to have coal or aluminum. If there is anything there, it will be copper, iron, or horses. I am not sure if there will be anything, though; I often over-think starting positions, but maybe it is just a red herring.
I am not sure if PS would be useful, but it would not hurt for quite a few turns. I don't know how quickly we would get to 4 hammers to gain anything from it, but we could always swap back out of it when we change to slavery. Probably we do not need it, unless we find Shaka, Monty, or G.Khan as neighbors.
Airfields will be useful, but I think we should wait a while to build them. Some of the AIs in my test games were putting hammers into airports before building libraries, around T55.
I think we will be busy building basic infra, workers, settlers, and garrison units for at least the first 70 - 80 turns or so. Although if we have a good source of higher-value trade routes, building them earlier will be worth it.
Ack!
You are correct, of course. I had the third hill (the forested one) being worked by Sparta, and not by the capital.
There would be some hammers from the forests, but I agree 2N is not a good choice for the capital. It may also have a hidden resource, which would be much more valuable worked.
SW-SW for the scout would take 2 turns, due to the hill under the settler. But I agree with your overall points -- this is a tough decision for the start, and on quick speed we can not afford the time to explore as much as we would like. Even moving the scout S, SW will not tell us for certain if 1S might be one off the coast to the south, as those forested tiles 2S will block the view. Moving the scout S, SE will likely reveal more, as that looks like non-forested land 2S2E of the settler. From the hill, we could see across the open tile to know if there appears to be coastline south of there.
No matter what we do, some of the BFC will not be known when we settle.
I am undecided between either 1S -- lots of forests, 2 hills, 2 corn, leaves room for a northern city to work the fish and share the corn, river for future levee -- or NE, N -- fish, 2 corn, 2 hills, maybe something on the open grass tile, tons of food for an early settler/worker pump and the capital can always be moved later.
I am leaning towards 1S, with the hope that there is something good in the fog. Maybe even some more hills, 3S of the settler's starting tile. The 2N1E spot would make a decent city, a good city if there is something hidden in the grass tile. But we would almost certainly end up moving the capital later.
overall, although it took me multiple paragraphs to state and you only needed one.
One of my games, and also JH's test, had an AI build the Oracle by T41. If we include Mining -> BW, we will finish more like T44 or T45, which might be too late. And my T44 finish was with copper in that open grass tile for more hammers, which we might not get. Heading for Priesthood right after Agri is probably the thing to do. I am split on Med vs Poly, though, as Poly is more useful longer term, and only costs a couple extra turns.
I tend to drift too much during the mid-game, and end up over-building my cities and not focusing fully on what will lead to victory fastest. I am counting on all of you to help keep me on the proper path, and not let my builder side get out of control.
I am not averse to a great prophet or two, as we are almost certain to found a religion or two if things go as planned and shrines are handy things. We certainly do not want a prophet for our first GP; I prevented this in my test game by running two library scientists in a different city to pop a pure Great Sci before the Oracle could produce a prophet. That depends on city #2 having plenty of excess food, though, which may or may not be possible.
What did you take with Liberalism? And where did Astro fit into your tech path? Observatories + Labs to boost the beaker multiplier should be powerful.
Also, how did the late game tech path shift, due to the various free techs Pericles brought back in time? I have not gotten a test game to the late stage, yet, and I am curious how the usual tech path may be affected. Did you build the Space Elevator?
I do not see us founding on turn 0, so why not revolt and save the turn?
I am unsure of how many cities we want. With uber-windmills available, we can support more cities, founded earlier, than a normal game could handle without crashing the economy. If land is available, I think cities beyond 6 could be net positive very quickly and worth founding.
I agree that if we have to fight for more than 6, we will have to think long and hard about doing so. Unless the potential gains are very rich, a war could cost too much and slow us down badly. Although if we share borders with a major warmonger and can not arrange for shared religion or favorite civics, we might not have a choice.
Generally agree, but let's not build them too early. Airports are very expensive for the early game.
Yes, the fun is extremely important. If things get unpleasant, or if people are feeling stressed about playing, then the whole point of the SGOTM has been lost. We want to play as a team, and not have one player totally disregard what has been discussed and planned. But we do not want the current player to feel locked into a pre-built plan, with no chance to be creative or take a chance. Let's keep discussions civil, and if you want to do something unexpected there is always time to stop and discuss with the team, and persuade them your idea is a good one.
We do need to keep things moving steadily, however. AlanH was rather emphatic about there being a real deadline this time, after the drawn out finish to SGOTM8. Poor Geezers were stuck waiting for a couple months before anyone else finished. This is a quick game, and even with a space race I think we can finish before the deadline if we get at least 20 turns played per week. That should be very possible, especially in the early game when the empire is small.
Vacation and a villa near St. Maarten -- very nice, JH!
I do not see anywhere we would want to settle turn 1. In place loses a potential windmill, and puts the fish out of reach for any later city. (Unless there is land 3N of the settler, which is not certain.) On either corn tile is also not good -- with fresh water available those are too powerful to exchange for +1 food in the city center.
I agree, and think we will want to grab as much land as we can. Windmills will provide enough commerce to make additional cities pay for themselves quickly. Fighting for more land is a tougher decision, unless we have neighbors we just can't live with or can be sure the target does not have iron.
If we are lucky enough to have a good researcher with decent trade caps nearby, befriending them and feeding them techs has a lot of potential. Not sure I can see Gyathaar being generous enough to place Mansa nearby, though.
Given our arctic landscape, there could be a number of resources in the fog to the northwest. Game, furs, silver, marble, maybe crab or whales off shore? Whether anything could be as valuable as fresh water corn is a good question. Silver, maybe, for hammers and early commerce. Marble for hammers and bonus for early wonders.
But having tons of food early on is a good thing, for rapid growth and building workers and settlers. Both corn will be used most of the time. And since we can build forest preserves for more happiness, we can keep growing the capital far beyond what would normally be possible in the early game.
Where is the wheel? Though we are creative and will connect coastal routes soon, any land bound cities are losing commerce
Though that loss weight in vs the gain of earlier boosted windmills
The wheel did come rather late for my test game, but my second and third cities were coastal so I was not losing trade route commerce. I eventually squeezed it in after Writing and AH (after BW, after Priesthood). If the real game map is more land and less water, we will definitely want to tech it earlier.
With the AIs starting with archers, even in a forest a warrior may have trouble. A lot depends on how near or far our neighbors are, and how quickly we find them. Starting with a scout will help, but we really do not know what to expect. Rivals, landform, and environment are unknown until we start. We could be on a highlands map, continents, pangaea, almost anything. AIs could be scarce, or we could be ultra-crowded and have to fight to gain enough land for any additional cities.
Too much is unknown to plan for war yet. Although I think we can all agree we must have a certain minimum amount of land to play a fast space race. If we can get it peacefully, we should -- wars cost time and resources. But we fight if we have to.
Yes, but pre-Liberalism, Printing Press, Democracy, and civic changes to US (over Rep or HR) and Free Speech (over Bur or Nationhood), a town is -1 food, -1 hammer, and even on commerce (if we get Electricity from Oracle). Plus the time to grow it.
Earlier commerce is worth more than later commerce, as the economy grows overall. So time to pay back the earlier losses will be longer. Especially if we are not in US and Free Speech for the full town bonuses, or the extra food was supporting Rep-boosted specialists.
At some point, building cottages and growing them to towns will be the right thing to do. Deciding just when that point is will be the trick. And depending on the land we have available, keeping the windmills and adding cottages on other tiles may be the way to go. We will have to see. I suspect using Emancipation to double the cottage growth rate will be important in timing the switch.
I would prefer to revolt to Enviro immediately (turn 0). We might not want/need to revolt to slavery immediately if we are building a wonder or a settler or whatever. The medium civic cost of Enviro should make no difference during the first 30 - 40 turns, so why not switch just in case?
And we might even meet Sitting Bull and get the favorite civic diplo bonus.
1S I like, On the river and opens up the hill we are on for a windmill
1SE I dont like, it leaves us (as it looks like) 1 off the coast
1S AND 1SE is 2 turns moving and loses out on a corn... Dont particarly like it.
Though moving 1 south loses that open grass, that is likely to contain horses/Metal a ver strong tile indeed
Then again if it contains oil or some other future resource, who cares (much) about that tile?
We can see both oil and uranium from the start, and a grassland tile is very unlikely to have coal or aluminum. If there is anything there, it will be copper, iron, or horses. I am not sure if there will be anything, though; I often over-think starting positions, but maybe it is just a red herring.
I am not sure if PS would be useful, but it would not hurt for quite a few turns. I don't know how quickly we would get to 4 hammers to gain anything from it, but we could always swap back out of it when we change to slavery. Probably we do not need it, unless we find Shaka, Monty, or G.Khan as neighbors.
Also dont neglect the power of Airfields, the troop movement bonus, but also the +2 commerce for an extra trade route is nothing to sneeze at.
Even if your commerce totals 40, thats +5% extra commerce
Airfields will be useful, but I think we should wait a while to build them. Some of the AIs in my test games were putting hammers into airports before building libraries, around T55.
I think we will be busy building basic infra, workers, settlers, and garrison units for at least the first 70 - 80 turns or so. Although if we have a good source of higher-value trade routes, building them earlier will be worth it.Ack!
You are correct, of course. I had the third hill (the forested one) being worked by Sparta, and not by the capital.There would be some hammers from the forests, but I agree 2N is not a good choice for the capital. It may also have a hidden resource, which would be much more valuable worked.
Hmmm, I don't know what we should do:
- moving the scout S/SE on the forested hill will reveal most tiles, but half of them would not be in the capital BFC and/or water.
- moving the scout S of the settler will only reveal those 3 forested tiles SW, S and SE of that spot, and will still not reveal all of a S-city's BFC
- deciding on moving the scout somewhere S and then not liking what we see (Ice, Tundra?) will force us to move N without anymore knowledge
- idem for moving the scout SW/SW (which looks like land): if we don't like the northern lands, we would be forced to move some south, into the unknown
SW-SW for the scout would take 2 turns, due to the hill under the settler. But I agree with your overall points -- this is a tough decision for the start, and on quick speed we can not afford the time to explore as much as we would like. Even moving the scout S, SW will not tell us for certain if 1S might be one off the coast to the south, as those forested tiles 2S will block the view. Moving the scout S, SE will likely reveal more, as that looks like non-forested land 2S2E of the settler. From the hill, we could see across the open tile to know if there appears to be coastline south of there.
No matter what we do, some of the BFC will not be known when we settle.
I am undecided between either 1S -- lots of forests, 2 hills, 2 corn, leaves room for a northern city to work the fish and share the corn, river for future levee -- or NE, N -- fish, 2 corn, 2 hills, maybe something on the open grass tile, tons of food for an early settler/worker pump and the capital can always be moved later.I am leaning towards 1S, with the hope that there is something good in the fog. Maybe even some more hills, 3S of the settler's starting tile. The 2N1E spot would make a decent city, a good city if there is something hidden in the grass tile. But we would almost certainly end up moving the capital later.
I have always favoured 1S as the best place to settle. The reason I mentioned 1SE is because it looks like there might be land there as well. Certainly 3E is coast so it would have at least 1 coastal tile but is there anything in the fog to make up for it? Hence moving the scout 1S then SE would tell us.
overall, although it took me multiple paragraphs to state and you only needed one. One of my games, and also JH's test, had an AI build the Oracle by T41. If we include Mining -> BW, we will finish more like T44 or T45, which might be too late. And my T44 finish was with copper in that open grass tile for more hammers, which we might not get. Heading for Priesthood right after Agri is probably the thing to do. I am split on Med vs Poly, though, as Poly is more useful longer term, and only costs a couple extra turns.For me the first tech has to be Agr and first build worker. That takes us a few turns and we should have a better idea by then. Should.
I tend to drift too much during the mid-game, and end up over-building my cities and not focusing fully on what will lead to victory fastest. I am counting on all of you to help keep me on the proper path, and not let my builder side get out of control.
I am not averse to a great prophet or two, as we are almost certain to found a religion or two if things go as planned and shrines are handy things. We certainly do not want a prophet for our first GP; I prevented this in my test game by running two library scientists in a different city to pop a pure Great Sci before the Oracle could produce a prophet. That depends on city #2 having plenty of excess food, though, which may or may not be possible.
What did you take with Liberalism? And where did Astro fit into your tech path? Observatories + Labs to boost the beaker multiplier should be powerful.
Also, how did the late game tech path shift, due to the various free techs Pericles brought back in time? I have not gotten a test game to the late stage, yet, and I am curious how the usual tech path may be affected. Did you build the Space Elevator?
I do not see us founding on turn 0, so why not revolt and save the turn?I am unsure of how many cities we want. With uber-windmills available, we can support more cities, founded earlier, than a normal game could handle without crashing the economy. If land is available, I think cities beyond 6 could be net positive very quickly and worth founding.
I agree that if we have to fight for more than 6, we will have to think long and hard about doing so. Unless the potential gains are very rich, a war could cost too much and slow us down badly. Although if we share borders with a major warmonger and can not arrange for shared religion or favorite civics, we might not have a choice.
Generally agree, but let's not build them too early. Airports are very expensive for the early game.
Yes, the fun is extremely important. If things get unpleasant, or if people are feeling stressed about playing, then the whole point of the SGOTM has been lost. We want to play as a team, and not have one player totally disregard what has been discussed and planned. But we do not want the current player to feel locked into a pre-built plan, with no chance to be creative or take a chance. Let's keep discussions civil, and if you want to do something unexpected there is always time to stop and discuss with the team, and persuade them your idea is a good one.
We do need to keep things moving steadily, however. AlanH was rather emphatic about there being a real deadline this time, after the drawn out finish to SGOTM8. Poor Geezers were stuck waiting for a couple months before anyone else finished. This is a quick game, and even with a space race I think we can finish before the deadline if we get at least 20 turns played per week. That should be very possible, especially in the early game when the empire is small.
Vacation and a villa near St. Maarten -- very nice, JH!
I do not see anywhere we would want to settle turn 1. In place loses a potential windmill, and puts the fish out of reach for any later city. (Unless there is land 3N of the settler, which is not certain.) On either corn tile is also not good -- with fresh water available those are too powerful to exchange for +1 food in the city center.
THought we arent heading for a domination win, getting more land fast gets our GPT up = more beakers = earlier win.
We dont need to eliminate any AI, but if one is close-ish stalling their development possibly nabbing a worker can only help while later on adding that capitol to our complement of cities.... Also (possibly) allowing a second AI to also take advantage of the space otherwize taken bij our direct neighbour, can only mean 2 bigger people on the plannet that add more beakers....
I agree, and think we will want to grab as much land as we can. Windmills will provide enough commerce to make additional cities pay for themselves quickly. Fighting for more land is a tougher decision, unless we have neighbors we just can't live with or can be sure the target does not have iron.
If we are lucky enough to have a good researcher with decent trade caps nearby, befriending them and feeding them techs has a lot of potential. Not sure I can see Gyathaar being generous enough to place Mansa nearby, though.
ChrisFromLux
former 'Misfit'
I think this is a good idea. We can switch to PS 'for free' as well. 1 turn Anarchy only for Envir. and PS!
I don't care too much about those 25%-hammers on the few defending units I see us build, but I like the idea of some aggressive guys loving us for running their favorite civic.
And once can go Repres. or HR, and we don't need PS anymore, it doesn't matter whether we switch from PS or Despotism ...
ChrisFromLux
former 'Misfit'
I meant NW/NW ... post above corrected ...Moving the scout NW/NW would move the settler completely into the unknown, if we don't like what the scout reveals (is what I wanted to say
)
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
Kale,If we dont settle on turn 1 yes...
THought we arent heading for a domination win, getting more land fast gets our GPT up = more beakers = earlier win.
We dont need to eliminate any AI, but if one is close-ish stalling their development possibly nabbing a worker can only help while later on adding that capitol to our complement of cities.... Also (possibly) allowing a second AI to also take advantage of the space otherwize taken bij our direct neighbour, can only mean 2 bigger people on the plannet that add more beakers....
I don't think our plan is going to settle on turn 1. We're either heading 1S or 2E, hopefully 1S. We'd revolt anyways even if we didn't settle.
Yes, if we get a chance to worker steal that would be good, but we will need to be cautious. I would rather wage a war mid-game with cats/trebs/maces than early. Iron is key with X-bows possible.
I completely agree that we have to have more cities than that. We'll stand no chance with only 6 cities!
How would you want to build all those Spaceship-parts ... not to speak of the beakers we would 'lose' by not having more cities!
I'm thinking more like 12-15 cities, with maybe 2 production cities and a mixed capital, and the rest goes fully commerce!
Ideally, we don't have to fight much to get this number of cities, but if we're too boxed in, we'll have to fight 1 or 2 wars. Even if that's not ideal on quick speed, it's necessary to win faster in the end!
We will have more than 6 cities, but we need 6 GOOD cities and we're fine, the other cities will handle secondary tasks.
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
Hap,
Since i have gone first the last two times, I'm happy to bat leadoff again. I won't mind stopping right after I move the scout, take a screenie, and debate!
Since i have gone first the last two times, I'm happy to bat leadoff again. I won't mind stopping right after I move the scout, take a screenie, and debate!
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
@@haphazard1
With the AIs starting with archers, even in a forest a warrior may have trouble. A lot depends on how near or far our neighbors are, and how quickly we find them. Starting with a scout will help, but we really do not know what to expect. Rivals, landform, and environment are unknown until we start. We could be on a highlands map, continents, pangaea, almost anything. AIs could be scarce, or we could be ultra-crowded and have to fight to gain enough land for any additional cities.
--I agree and this is why I am not planning on or expecting early war. If we can avoid war and spend our hammers on libraries and commerce buildings, all the better
Earlier commerce is worth more than later commerce, as the economy grows overall. So time to pay back the earlier losses will be longer. Especially if we are not in US and Free Speech for the full town bonuses, or the extra food was supporting Rep-boosted specialists.
Agreed. I think the windmills and forest preserves are superior for early/midgame strategy vs. cottage spamming. We will need good research rates, but also good hammer production for the space race!!! If we found some cities on grass plains like fat crosses, we could spam there.
I suspect using Emancipation to double the cottage growth rate will be important in timing the switch.
CRITICALLY IMPORTANT and an Excellent strategy suggestion
I would prefer to revolt to Enviro immediately (turn 0). We might not want/need to revolt to slavery immediately if we are building a wonder or a settler or whatever. The medium civic cost of Enviro should make no difference during the first 30 - 40 turns, so why not switch just in case? And we might even meet Sitting Bull and get the favorite civic diplo bonus.
--Agreed completely. Revolt on turn 0
I am not sure if PS would be useful, but it would not hurt for quite a few turns. I don't know how quickly we would get to 4 hammers to gain anything from it, but we could always swap back out of it when we change to slavery. Probably we do not need it, unless we find Shaka, Monty, or G.Khan as neighbors.
--I am in favor of revolting to PS as well early on
Airfields will be useful, but I think we should wait a while to build them. Some of the AIs in my test games were putting hammers into airports before building libraries, around T55. I think we will be busy building basic infra, workers, settlers, and garrison units for at least the first 70 - 80 turns or so. Although if we have a good source of higher-value trade routes, building them earlier will be worth it.
--I built airfields around turn 80, after libraries had been constructed and enough workers and settlers so that my capital city could concentrate on commerce growth
I am leaning towards 1S, with the hope that there is something good in the fog. Maybe even some more hills, 3S of the settler's starting tile. The 2N1E spot would make a decent city, a good city if there is something hidden in the grass tile. But we would almost certainly end up moving the capital later.
--And for that reason, we move the scout south, SE and 1S is my current favorite for settling on turn 2.
One of my games, and also JH's test, had an AI build the Oracle by T41. If we include Mining -> BW, we will finish more like T44 or T45, which might be too late. And my T44 finish was with copper in that open grass tile for more hammers, which we might not get. Heading for Priesthood right after Agri is probably the thing to do. I am split on Med vs Poly, though, as Poly is more useful longer term, and only costs a couple extra turns.
--I am thinking Agri/Myst/Poly/Pri/Writing/Mining/BW.
I am not averse to a great prophet or two, as we are almost certain to found a religion or two if things go as planned and shrines are handy things. We certainly do not want a prophet for our first GP; I prevented this in my test game by running two library scientists in a different city to pop a pure Great Sci before the Oracle could produce a prophet. That depends on city #2 having plenty of excess food, though, which may or may not be possible.
1 GP is fine, it at least gets us a Golden Age. I like your plan though
What did you take with Liberalism? And where did Astro fit into your tech path? Observatories + Labs to boost the beaker multiplier should be powerful.
--It is. When I got Liberalism I took Genetics. It's a very expensive tech, and +3 health is very handy given the large city growth I was having.
Also, how did the late game tech path shift, due to the various free techs Pericles brought back in time? I have not gotten a test game to the late stage, yet, and I am curious how the usual tech path may be affected. Did you build the Space Elevator?
--I did not build the space elevator. I was teching very fast and had 8 cities, and they were already producing space parts. I wouldn't have finished the elevator before I finished my spacecraft. Maybe it would be a good idea, but it shaves a few turns off of each part, and occupies a major production city for a good time. We have 5 thrusters and 5 casings to build.
I do not see us founding on turn 0, so why not revolt and save the turn?
Agree
Yes, the fun is extremely important. If things get unpleasant, or if people are feeling stressed about playing, then the whole point of the SGOTM has been lost. We want to play as a team, and not have one player totally disregard what has been discussed and planned. But we do not want the current player to feel locked into a pre-built plan, with no chance to be creative or take a chance. Let's keep discussions civil, and if you want to do something unexpected there is always time to stop and discuss with the team, and persuade them your idea is a good one.
I can't stress this enough. Enough! And there will be times where a decision will need to be made due to an unexpected event. Let's develop the best plan we can, but unless the event is really game altering, the player handling the turnset handles it to their best ability, and its okay!
Vacation and a villa near St. Maarten -- very nice, JH!
--I married up.
I agree, and think we will want to grab as much land as we can. Windmills will provide enough commerce to make additional cities pay for themselves quickly. Fighting for more land is a tougher decision, unless we have neighbors we just can't live with or can be sure the target does not have iron.
--Thats my early game plan
With the AIs starting with archers, even in a forest a warrior may have trouble. A lot depends on how near or far our neighbors are, and how quickly we find them. Starting with a scout will help, but we really do not know what to expect. Rivals, landform, and environment are unknown until we start. We could be on a highlands map, continents, pangaea, almost anything. AIs could be scarce, or we could be ultra-crowded and have to fight to gain enough land for any additional cities.
--I agree and this is why I am not planning on or expecting early war. If we can avoid war and spend our hammers on libraries and commerce buildings, all the better
Earlier commerce is worth more than later commerce, as the economy grows overall. So time to pay back the earlier losses will be longer. Especially if we are not in US and Free Speech for the full town bonuses, or the extra food was supporting Rep-boosted specialists.
Agreed. I think the windmills and forest preserves are superior for early/midgame strategy vs. cottage spamming. We will need good research rates, but also good hammer production for the space race!!! If we found some cities on grass plains like fat crosses, we could spam there.
I suspect using Emancipation to double the cottage growth rate will be important in timing the switch.
CRITICALLY IMPORTANT and an Excellent strategy suggestion
I would prefer to revolt to Enviro immediately (turn 0). We might not want/need to revolt to slavery immediately if we are building a wonder or a settler or whatever. The medium civic cost of Enviro should make no difference during the first 30 - 40 turns, so why not switch just in case? And we might even meet Sitting Bull and get the favorite civic diplo bonus.
--Agreed completely. Revolt on turn 0
I am not sure if PS would be useful, but it would not hurt for quite a few turns. I don't know how quickly we would get to 4 hammers to gain anything from it, but we could always swap back out of it when we change to slavery. Probably we do not need it, unless we find Shaka, Monty, or G.Khan as neighbors.
--I am in favor of revolting to PS as well early on
Airfields will be useful, but I think we should wait a while to build them. Some of the AIs in my test games were putting hammers into airports before building libraries, around T55.
I think we will be busy building basic infra, workers, settlers, and garrison units for at least the first 70 - 80 turns or so. Although if we have a good source of higher-value trade routes, building them earlier will be worth it.--I built airfields around turn 80, after libraries had been constructed and enough workers and settlers so that my capital city could concentrate on commerce growth
I am leaning towards 1S, with the hope that there is something good in the fog. Maybe even some more hills, 3S of the settler's starting tile. The 2N1E spot would make a decent city, a good city if there is something hidden in the grass tile. But we would almost certainly end up moving the capital later.
--And for that reason, we move the scout south, SE and 1S is my current favorite for settling on turn 2.
One of my games, and also JH's test, had an AI build the Oracle by T41. If we include Mining -> BW, we will finish more like T44 or T45, which might be too late. And my T44 finish was with copper in that open grass tile for more hammers, which we might not get. Heading for Priesthood right after Agri is probably the thing to do. I am split on Med vs Poly, though, as Poly is more useful longer term, and only costs a couple extra turns.--I am thinking Agri/Myst/Poly/Pri/Writing/Mining/BW.
I am not averse to a great prophet or two, as we are almost certain to found a religion or two if things go as planned and shrines are handy things. We certainly do not want a prophet for our first GP; I prevented this in my test game by running two library scientists in a different city to pop a pure Great Sci before the Oracle could produce a prophet. That depends on city #2 having plenty of excess food, though, which may or may not be possible.
1 GP is fine, it at least gets us a Golden Age. I like your plan though
What did you take with Liberalism? And where did Astro fit into your tech path? Observatories + Labs to boost the beaker multiplier should be powerful.
--It is. When I got Liberalism I took Genetics. It's a very expensive tech, and +3 health is very handy given the large city growth I was having.
Also, how did the late game tech path shift, due to the various free techs Pericles brought back in time? I have not gotten a test game to the late stage, yet, and I am curious how the usual tech path may be affected. Did you build the Space Elevator?
--I did not build the space elevator. I was teching very fast and had 8 cities, and they were already producing space parts. I wouldn't have finished the elevator before I finished my spacecraft. Maybe it would be a good idea, but it shaves a few turns off of each part, and occupies a major production city for a good time. We have 5 thrusters and 5 casings to build.
I do not see us founding on turn 0, so why not revolt and save the turn?Agree
Yes, the fun is extremely important. If things get unpleasant, or if people are feeling stressed about playing, then the whole point of the SGOTM has been lost. We want to play as a team, and not have one player totally disregard what has been discussed and planned. But we do not want the current player to feel locked into a pre-built plan, with no chance to be creative or take a chance. Let's keep discussions civil, and if you want to do something unexpected there is always time to stop and discuss with the team, and persuade them your idea is a good one.
I can't stress this enough. Enough! And there will be times where a decision will need to be made due to an unexpected event. Let's develop the best plan we can, but unless the event is really game altering, the player handling the turnset handles it to their best ability, and its okay!
Vacation and a villa near St. Maarten -- very nice, JH!
--I married up.
I agree, and think we will want to grab as much land as we can. Windmills will provide enough commerce to make additional cities pay for themselves quickly. Fighting for more land is a tougher decision, unless we have neighbors we just can't live with or can be sure the target does not have iron.
--Thats my early game plan
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
Continuing the pattern of JH starting us off sounds good to me. I will tentatively set up the rest of the roster alphabetically; if anyone would prefer something different, just let me know.
This gives us a starting rotation of:
JerichoHill
ChrisFromLux
haphazard1
KaleLambiek
marowaker
Mastiff_of_Ar
Sleepless
I will try to keep the second post in the thread up to date, with the latest roster, who played last, who is next, etc. The third post will have a list of links to the turnset reports, to make it easier to find the key posts showing what happened.
If we get key strategy discussions or planning posts, I will also keep links to them in the third post.
This gives us a starting rotation of:
JerichoHill
ChrisFromLux
haphazard1
KaleLambiek
marowaker
Mastiff_of_Ar
Sleepless
I will try to keep the second post in the thread up to date, with the latest roster, who played last, who is next, etc. The third post will have a list of links to the turnset reports, to make it easier to find the key posts showing what happened.
If we get key strategy discussions or planning posts, I will also keep links to them in the third post.
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
I did some digging in the code to check on barb spawning, and I believe I have found the answer. Because of the techs which were brought back from the future, we effectively start the game in the Modern Era. It is not a Modern Era start -- we are still in 4000 BC -- so it is possible to build the various early and mid-game wonders. But we will never see the "you have entered the X Era" pop ups, until and unless we reach the Future era.
As part of the doTurn code, calls are made to check barb city spawning and barb unit spawning. Each of these subroutines contains a check of the CIV4EraInfos XML, where there are variables bNoBarbCities and bNoBarbUnits. Both of these are 1 (true) for the Industrial and Modern eras, so there will never be any barbs in this game.
(There is also a bNoAnimals for barb animals, but it is subordinate to bNoBarbUnits. It is true for all eras from Classical forward anyway.)
So it is definite: no fogbusting needed, no one to fight but other civs.
As part of the doTurn code, calls are made to check barb city spawning and barb unit spawning. Each of these subroutines contains a check of the CIV4EraInfos XML, where there are variables bNoBarbCities and bNoBarbUnits. Both of these are 1 (true) for the Industrial and Modern eras, so there will never be any barbs in this game.
(There is also a bNoAnimals for barb animals, but it is subordinate to bNoBarbUnits. It is true for all eras from Classical forward anyway.)
So it is definite: no fogbusting needed, no one to fight but other civs.
KaleLambiek
Prince
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2009
- Messages
- 373
Certainly early game, Windmill > Cottage +1 food +1 hammer = huge. And the early commerce rocks!
We can also go the 'Murky' way and produce beakers to boost our beaker count.
I for one am not sure moving is good (enough) to validate it. I still like the northern corn, trading the corn for a fish.
Then again moving 1 south opens up the fish for a 2 scientist city.
The whip
when used smartly on a settler/worker can turn up quite some hammers and the chop of that eastern hill is worth some hammers.Moving 1 south, Chopping that eastern hill (windmill), and 2 riversides, one replaced by a watermill. The other by a Cottage.
Some 'smart' whipping and not really trying hard to optimize at all Get 3 workers total + 1 settler and 2 warriors out of the capitol finished Oracle turn 40.
While researching Agri > Mining > BW > Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood
is that 2 turnsets? 3 or 4, maybe 5?
Dont forget on the north corn you also add the fish for +4 food and if we add the Maui +1 hammer and +2 commerce. Offcourse we are also "stuck" with a number of semi-useless coastal tiles. But can build a Harbor and some such buildings like the customs house
But revolt prior to pressing "end turn" NOT upon opening the save. If the scout shows something awful down south we may yet want to settle on turn 0 and we have lost the revolt turn which we can also do with the revolt to Slavery
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
@@KaleLambiek;7901036]
We can also go the 'Murky' way and produce beakers to boost our beaker count.
Excellent point.
I for one am not sure moving is good (enough) to validate it. I still like the northern corn, trading the corn for a fish.
Then again moving 1 south opens up the fish for a 2 scientist city.
Yes, that's what I'm looking at with moving 1S.
The whip when used smartly on a settler/worker can turn up quite some hammers and the chop of that eastern hill is worth some hammers.
Oh, we'll be whipping, no doubt. The hills are going to get windmills anyways so they will be chopped.
Moving 1 south, Chopping that eastern hill (windmill), and 2 riversides, one replaced by a watermill. The other by a Cottage.
Watermills are also very good improvements.
Some 'smart' whipping and not really trying hard to optimize at all Get 3 workers total + 1 settler and 2 warriors out of the capitol finished Oracle turn 40.
While researching Agri > Mining > BW > Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood
Let me playtest that to see that *I* can do that. If so, that seems an improvement on our tech path.
is that 2 turnsets? 3 or 4, maybe 5?
Probably the first 2 turnsets, then 10 turns each (about), then as we get to the end game maybe 5 turns a piece. Note that I am a player that would play a turnset but if I hit a logical stopping point on turn 8/10, I'd stop. That's me.
But revolt prior to pressing "end turn" NOT upon opening the save. If the scout shows something awful down south we may yet want to settle on turn 0 and we have lost the revolt turn which we can also do with the revolt to Slavery
Yes, prior to ending the turn!
We can also go the 'Murky' way and produce beakers to boost our beaker count.
Excellent point.
I for one am not sure moving is good (enough) to validate it. I still like the northern corn, trading the corn for a fish.
Then again moving 1 south opens up the fish for a 2 scientist city.
Yes, that's what I'm looking at with moving 1S.
The whip
when used smartly on a settler/worker can turn up quite some hammers and the chop of that eastern hill is worth some hammers.Oh, we'll be whipping, no doubt. The hills are going to get windmills anyways so they will be chopped.
Moving 1 south, Chopping that eastern hill (windmill), and 2 riversides, one replaced by a watermill. The other by a Cottage.
Watermills are also very good improvements.
Some 'smart' whipping and not really trying hard to optimize at all Get 3 workers total + 1 settler and 2 warriors out of the capitol finished Oracle turn 40.
While researching Agri > Mining > BW > Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood
Let me playtest that to see that *I* can do that. If so, that seems an improvement on our tech path.
is that 2 turnsets? 3 or 4, maybe 5?
Probably the first 2 turnsets, then 10 turns each (about), then as we get to the end game maybe 5 turns a piece. Note that I am a player that would play a turnset but if I hit a logical stopping point on turn 8/10, I'd stop. That's me.
But revolt prior to pressing "end turn" NOT upon opening the save. If the scout shows something awful down south we may yet want to settle on turn 0 and we have lost the revolt turn which we can also do with the revolt to Slavery
Yes, prior to ending the turn!
No problems with the starting roster. Just to add I might be away for a couple of weeks early May and probably won't have civ/internet access. At least it will give me plenty to read up on when I get back.
Regarding the start. Moving the scout then posting the start is the way to go. Now we just have to decide where to move the scout.
Regarding the start. Moving the scout then posting the start is the way to go. Now we just have to decide where to move the scout.
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
Since I am inclined to settle 1S now, I think moving the Scout 1S,1SE is best. Of course I would stop the game there after that move to take a screenie and hold for debate.
KaleLambiek
Prince
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2009
- Messages
- 373
Playing from HapHazard's, just clicking away....
I am sure it can be improved upon and the real game will be totaly different, yet still...
1600 bc Oracle (turn 40) about to finish when you click end turn
440 bc Civil service
230 ad Education (I think?)
740 ad building paratroopers after getting Riffling
I am sure it can be improved upon and the real game will be totaly different, yet still...
1600 bc Oracle (turn 40) about to finish when you click end turn
440 bc Civil service
230 ad Education (I think?)
740 ad building paratroopers after getting Riffling
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
Yeah, I noticed the paratroopers as well.
I can confirm I get a turn 40 finish on Oracle as well given your tech path. Guys, what do you think? I'm inclined to go with Kale's proposed techpath. Thankfully we don't need to worry about barbs
Kale, quickly, where did you settle? 1S?
I can confirm I get a turn 40 finish on Oracle as well given your tech path. Guys, what do you think? I'm inclined to go with Kale's proposed techpath. Thankfully we don't need to worry about barbs
Kale, quickly, where did you settle? 1S?
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
Check the latest from Gyathaar in the maintenance thread -- apparently there will be barbs, and he even states they will be especially nasty. 
Apparently involves some nifty WorldBuilder file manipulation. He notes that just adding the techs in WB turns off the barbs, which is what I was doing setting up the test games.
So...barbs, nasty barbs (raging? cities already settled? something else?), and not the farmer's gambit after all. Oh well.
On the early path, I think we need to be very selective about chopping. Clearing forested hills for windmills, absolutely. Riverside tiles for cottages, probably. Riverside tiles for watermills...maybe. (With Electricity, a watermill will be +1 hammer per turn plus the chop hammers, but -1 happy compared to a forest preserve on the same tile.)
Losing the +1 happy from a possible forest reserve will need to be weighed carefully against the alternate uses of the forest tile, and the smaller max city size. Clearing forests when we would not have enough happiness to work the resulting tile, or all our other strong tiles, will be a net loss longer term. So let's not get too chop-happy, even for important projects like the Oracle.
Given "nasty" barbs, I agree we should take the Agri, line to BW, line to Priesthood approach, and push the Oracle build as hard as we can. We may need slavery to whip defenders, and hopefully we will have copper somewhere nearby.
Apparently involves some nifty WorldBuilder file manipulation. He notes that just adding the techs in WB turns off the barbs, which is what I was doing setting up the test games.
So...barbs, nasty barbs (raging? cities already settled? something else?), and not the farmer's gambit after all. Oh well.
On the early path, I think we need to be very selective about chopping. Clearing forested hills for windmills, absolutely. Riverside tiles for cottages, probably. Riverside tiles for watermills...maybe. (With Electricity, a watermill will be +1 hammer per turn plus the chop hammers, but -1 happy compared to a forest preserve on the same tile.)
Losing the +1 happy from a possible forest reserve will need to be weighed carefully against the alternate uses of the forest tile, and the smaller max city size. Clearing forests when we would not have enough happiness to work the resulting tile, or all our other strong tiles, will be a net loss longer term. So let's not get too chop-happy, even for important projects like the Oracle.
Given "nasty" barbs, I agree we should take the Agri, line to BW, line to Priesthood approach, and push the Oracle build as hard as we can. We may need slavery to whip defenders, and hopefully we will have copper somewhere nearby.
Just another quick thought about forest preserves, they encourage forest growth so with very selective chopping we might get some more forests grow.
I'm not absolutely certain but I think they will grow on adjacent squares but not on the diagonal.
Ouch regarding the barbs. It means we might have to fit early archery in the tech line somewhere if we have no bronze. Off line I normally play immortal occasionally deity (don't play many offline games these days though). Barbs on deity can come into your borders around 2400BC Immortal 2000BC ish. Not sure on Monarch. Anyone know?
I'm not absolutely certain but I think they will grow on adjacent squares but not on the diagonal.
Ouch regarding the barbs.
It means we might have to fit early archery in the tech line somewhere if we have no bronze. Off line I normally play immortal occasionally deity (don't play many offline games these days though). Barbs on deity can come into your borders around 2400BC Immortal 2000BC ish. Not sure on Monarch. Anyone know?
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
Okay, well clearly this makes the proposed tech path a better alternative. We can insert archery immediately after priesthood, before writing, to build a few archers just in case of barb problems
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
I went and reread what Gyathaar wrote, and I think this makes taking Electricity from the Oracle even more important.
What I think he is doing will be to edit the WorldBuilder file directly, changing the "current" era info for all civs back to Ancient after the techs have been added. But if we take Electricity, we will once again jump to a more advanced era (either Industrial or Modern). And that will give us the settings of that advanced era, which will once again turn off spawning of barb units and cities.
It will not do anything about barb units or cities which already exist. And I suppose barb cities could still build units. But fresh spawning would be eliminated.
We definitely need to get the Oracle.
What I think he is doing will be to edit the WorldBuilder file directly, changing the "current" era info for all civs back to Ancient after the techs have been added. But if we take Electricity, we will once again jump to a more advanced era (either Industrial or Modern). And that will give us the settings of that advanced era, which will once again turn off spawning of barb units and cities.
It will not do anything about barb units or cities which already exist. And I suppose barb cities could still build units. But fresh spawning would be eliminated.
We definitely need to get the Oracle.
KaleLambiek
Prince
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2009
- Messages
- 373
Yes 1S, but I purposely ignored the hills due west and the plains hill due south.
No telling what is out in the fog, improving those hills with windmills will only make things faster.
Could just be strong talk?
Trying to bind the (peacefull) expansion of the teams?
Possibly its only barbs that are our opponents ??? LOL
The minus 1 happyness for no forest preserve is true offcourse, however... I think having 2 watermills just on that patch of river we have in the test save when you settle 1S is an absolute MUST for the added hammers.
And we lose the happy regardless if we place a Cottage or watermill. Still think a watermill early on is better?
Confirmed, no diagonal growth only N S E W
Still with a preserve there is about 0.5% chance of a growing forest... which is not great at all, so lets not hold our breath to do so.
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