SGOTM 09 - Misfits

[AlanH]

BtS SGOTM 09 - Back to the Future

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 9 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
This is the second Beyond the Sword SGOTM. Thanks, Gyathaar

You are Pericles of Greece. You have travelled back to 4000 BC, but you took with you a knowledge of several modern technologies. Your task is now to return to the modern era as fast as possible, and to reach for the stars.

This is a Quick speed, Monarch difficulty game on a Standard sized mystery map. There are no goody huts, no events and no city razing.

Pericles is Philosophical and Creative. The Phalanx is your unique unit, replacing the Axeman; and the Odeon unique building replaces the Colosseum. As well as your usual starting techs, Hunting and Fishing, you brought with you a comprehensive library of text books.

The Objective
All victory conditions are enabled, but laurels will be awarded to teams with the quickest Space victories.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.17, using HoF Mod 3.17.001.

If a later BtS patch is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in version 3.17 before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.

As there is no Mac version of BtS, Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows version on their system.

Schedule

• The Team threads will open shortly.
• The start files will be published here on Friday, March 27.
• The latest Save for your team will be linked on the Progress and Results Page throughout the game.
• Please plan to complete the game within three months of the start date.
• NOTE: Barring unforeseen disasters there will be a four month final deadline.
  I shall declare winners and losers from those teams that have finished on July 27, 2009.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

​

Map Parameters

• Playable Leader/Civ - Pericles of the Greek Empire.
• Characteristics - Philosophical and Creative, starts with Hunting and Fishing
• You and all the AI also know Fascism, Scientific Method, Physics, Medicine, Flight, Machinery, Replaceable Parts and Superconductors
• Unique Unit - Phalanx (Axeman)
• Unique Building - Odeon (Colosseum)
• Difficulty - Monarch
• Game Speed - Quick (330 turns)
• World size - Standard
• Rivals - Probably
• Landform - Mystery
• Environment - Not saying
• Other settings - No city razing, No goodie huts, No events

Notes

• Please visit the [URL="http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439]Civ4 SGOTM reference thread[/URL] to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
• Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the teams with the fastest Spaceship victories, and the Wooden Spoons for the finishing team with the lowest final score.
  
• All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Enjoy your game, and the best of luck

 

[haphazard1]

Roster (last updated June 27th):

T178 - 1765 AD

Mastiff_of_Ar - nuked the bastards!!!
KaleLambiek
haphazard1
JerichoHill - launched the ship, built some nukes

Sleepless - out due to computer and install issues
ChrisFromLux - busy with Real Life, withdrawn
marowaker - Lurking due to difficulties opening the saves

-

 

[haphazard1]

Turnset reports:

T0 - T21 (4000 BC to 2740 BC) - JerichoHill - Got us started, met Hammurabi

Initial exploration
Meet our first neighbor

T21 - T30 (2740 BC to 2200 BC) - haphazard1 - Exploration and built first settler

Quiet years

T30 - T41 (2200 BC to 1540 BC) - KaleLambiek - Built Oracle and took Electricity, spotted borders of 2nd AI

Oracle built

T41 - T48 (1540 BC to 1120 BC) - Mastiff_of_Ar - Met Joao, explored AI lands

Built second settler

T48 - T55 (1120 BC to 800 BC) - Sleepless - first SGOTM turnset, initial tech trading, founded third city

Alpha and opportunites
Trades and Ooops with barbs

T55 - T64 (800 BC to 440 BC) - ChrisFromLux - Founded CopperIceball and Sushi de Luxe, recon over Atlantis

Founded two cities, scouted barb Atlantis

T64 - T73 (440 BC to 80 BC) - JerichoHill - Met remaining AI, founded Island City

Angering people we don't even know

T73 - T82 (80 BC to 260 AD) - haphazard1 - Met tougher barbs, founded Bear Town

Barb trouble, prophet disappointment

T82 - T90 (260 AD to 500 AD) - KaleLambiek - Fought barbs, researched Education, declared on by Joao

Barb defense

T90 - T97 (500 AD to 710 AD) - Sleepless - Fought barbs, started unis and Oxford

Building universities

T97 - T105 (710 AD to 900 AD) - ChrisFromLux - finished Oxford, teched towards Astro

Got another prophet...darn it!

T105 - T113 (900 AD to 1060 AD) - haphazard1 - finished Astro and on to Rifling, settled open land

Founded Two Rivers, Food Heaven, Grapeville

T113 - T118 (1060 AD to 1160 AD) - KaleLambiek - trading and preparing for war with Hammi

Built our first paras

T118 - T125 (1160 AD to 1300 AD) - JerichoHill - smashed barbs, began the war on Hammi

Dur-Kur is taken

T125 - T132 (1300 AD to 1420 AD) - ChrisFromLux - continued war on Hammi

Captured Sippar and Opis

T132 - T140 (1420 AD to 1500 AD) - haphazard1 - switched to Emancipation, continue war on Hammi

Captured Babylon after heavy fighting

T140 - T151 (1500 AD to 1610 AD) - Mastiff_of_Ar - finished war with Hammi by extermination

Hammi conquered
Auto log
Turn set log

T151 - T158 (1610 AD to 1665 AD) - KaleLambiek - Got Rocketry from HC, then his capital

Rocketry and Cuzco obtained from HC

T158 - T161 (1665 AD to 1680 AD) - haphazard1 - finished Three Gorges and Apollo, war with HC

Started the eternal golden age
Apollo done, Taiwanaku captured

T161 - T164 (1680 AD to 1695 AD) - JerichoHill - Vassalized HC, building SS parts

Began SS parts

T164 - T167 (1695 AD to 1710 AD) - KaleLambiek - building SS parts

Setting up final overflow builds

T167 - T171 (1710 AD to 1730 AD) - haphazard1 - completed all remaining SS parts

Got ship ready for launch

T171 - T176 (1730 AD to 1755 AD) - JerichoHill - launched the space ship

Built some nukes

T176 - T178 (1755 AD to 1765 AD) - Mastiff_of_Ar - nuked some people

And oh yeah, the space ship arrived at its destination...VICTORY!

-

 

[haphazard1]

And the race begins!

Welcome to all my fellow Misfits, as we race for space to get Back to the Future!

Special welcomes to our new team members, Sleepless and KaleLambiek -- glad to have you with us. If you have not played an SGOTM before, please make sure you read the maintenance thread and the reference material linked there. Pay special attention to the rules on reading/posting in the threads of the other teams, and on replaying turns and examining save files. AlanH got a little testy during SGOTM8 due to minor violations by several teams; let's strive to stay fully compliant with the rules.

It can also be helpful to read or skim a few team threads from previous SGOTMs (making certain they are previous games, and not SGOTM9!). Different teams have different styles and approaches, and if you see something which looks useful speak up -- maybe our team can steal learn from other teams.

We Misfits tends to be a loosely organized bunch -- I am more of an organizer and team secretary than a captain, and we are usually pretty easy-going about skips and swaps in the roster. Please try to let the team know ahead of time if you will be unavailble, so we don't lose days with everyone waiting if you are not going to be able to take the turnset. It is just common courtesy to your team mates.

Everyone please post once to indicate you are still active, and let's get started discussing how we are going to claim a laurel!

 

[haphazard1]

There has already been some discussion among the returning Misfits, which will be recapped soon. But for our new team members enjoyment, here is a test map set up to match everything we know about the actual game.

View attachment MisfitsSGOTM9 Test A BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Sleepless]

Sleepless signing in and a big hello to everyone.

 

[KaleLambiek]

Hi team,

I have been lurking (thats the right word right?) the SGOTM 8 for a while and have been struggling to sign up on the forum, due to my ISP giving problems. Hence my late sign up.

Some ideas I had
Settling
Settle on the northern corn for coastal access and the fish without having to much water in the capitol?

Tech
IF we have any / many AI this is going to be one trade heavy game (I think)

Super conductors
Means we can build labs from turn 1, except it requires Observatories. Early Astro for +50% research looks nice

Windmills
Electicity + Enviromentalism make Windmills into early game TOWNS +1 food +1 Hammer
Get electricity from early Oracle?

No city razing.
Do we want to find a nearby AI and park an archer or phalanx in a forrest? So to stop it from expanding to allow us to make the cities in the best spots ourselves?

Airport(s)
Fast troop movement and extra traderoute however expensive to build


Loads more stuff ....

 

[marowaker]

Signing in. Good luck for us

 

[Sleepless]

Hi, Kalelambiek from the other new member of the team.

Some ideas I had
Settling
Settle on the northern corn for coastal access and the fish without having to much water in the capitol?

We've had some discussions on this already. With the corn being irrigated already it gives +4 food with a farm and there is unlikely to be a time when were not working it so for me it would be better to go 1N/1NW again. The other option I really like is 1S so I'm expecting lots of discussion on this. We'll have to see what moving and where to move the scout brings as well.

Super conductors
Means we can build labs from turn 1, except it requires Observatories. Early Astro for +50% research looks nice

I agree but to my thoughts even earlier Edu should be one of our main early aims for cheap unis and Oxford.

Windmills
Electicity + Enviromentalism make Windmills into early game TOWNS +1 food +1 Hammer
Get electricity from early Oracle?

Another very good point. No arguments from me about going for early Oracle.

No city razing.
Do we want to find a nearby AI and park an archer or phalanx in a forrest? So to stop it from expanding to allow us to make the cities in the best spots ourselves?

Another good point/option. A lot depends on the surrounding land/neighbour. Defintely something to think about though.

 

[haphazard1]

My thoughts, and some info from my test games as promised.

We've had some discussions on this already. With the corn being irrigated already it gives +4 food with a farm and there is unlikely to be a time when were not working it so for me it would be better to go 1N/1NW again. The other option I really like is 1S so I'm expecting lots of discussion on this. We'll have to see what moving and where to move the scout brings as well.

We will need to see what the scout can reveal, especially to the north and west where that "suggested" circle is. There is almost certainly something interesting off in the fog. I also agree with Sleepless that settling on irrigatable corn is not good, when we have other options; that is a powerful tile to lose for +1 food in the city center.

1S leaves room for a a second city in the north to use the fish and maybe share the corn, so this is also a good possibility. We have no idea what is in those southern fogged tiles, though, so we could end up with a poor capital. Lots of trees, which in this game means lumbermills and forest preserves for lots of happiness and commerce and some hammers. Non-coastal, though, so 1S would not be able to build a lighthouse to get 3F from the fresh water lake; this is minor since the northern city would probably take that tile later.

I agree but to my thoughts even earlier Edu should be one of our main early aims for cheap unis and Oxford.

Early writing for cheap creative libraries, scientist specialists to generate Great Sci, and early academy (or two or three). Then early Edu for cheap philosophical universities and early Oxford. Then early Astro (maybe from Liberalism, although we may want to take Radio if we get Electricity from Oracle) for observatories and labs.

Since we are going for space, we are likely to be beaker-limited rather than hammer-limited (at least until the last phase and building the ship parts). So getting as many beaker multipliers as we can, as early as we can, should be central to our planning.

Another very good point. No arguments from me about going for early Oracle.

In test games, grabbing Electricity to boost windmills even further and also watermills, was very strong. Since Electricity can be researched from the start, we do not need to delay for Math or CoL and can build it as quickly as we can reach Priesthood and put in the hammers. About T44 was my result, if I teched Agri->Mining->BW->Myst->Poly->Priesthood, and this seemed pretty safe. I built 2 settlers before the Oracle in this time, also.

I wanted BW to reveal copper and allow whipping; chops are not a good idea when we can build lumbermills and forest preserves. And I took Poly over Med because it opens up more options later. We could take the cheaper Med if desired, although AIs will often not trade Poly until all the wonders are built and we might have to tech it ourselves later anyway.

Another thought on Oracle for Electricity is that in my test games, commerce from windmills was strong enough that any other tech which could be taken (CoL, MC, CS) could be researched in <10 turns, some <5 turns. I was able to reach CS before 500 BC when taking Electricity, so there was no need to risk losing the Oracle by trying for a CS sling. Without a high-commerce tile like gold or gems early, the CS sling on Monarch is very risky.

Another good point/option. A lot depends on the surrounding land/neighbour. Defintely something to think about though.

Of course, we do not have anything but warriors available at the start. Archers require Archery (which we can hopefully skip and get later in trade), and phalanx requires metal, which we may or may not have available early.

Also keep in mind that all civs start with Machinery, and all AIs start with Archery. Any AI which techs to IW and hooks up iron can immediately start building crossbows. The era of melee units is going to end much sooner than normal in this game.

If we do find a neighbor (or several ) very close by, then an early rush or choke may be necessary. But we have to make certain they can not get iron connected, or we are likely to be hit hard.


The most important thing I learned from my test games was that windmills are insanely powerful, due to Rep Parts and Enviro. I revolted to Enviro civic on turn 0, giving me time to move my settler without losing a useful turn (quick speed, can't waste time). This makes windmills +1F, +1H, +3C, which is stronger than any non-resource tile. With Electricity somewhere around T44 for another +1C, I was building windmills first at every new city and even picking my city sites to get the most hills. If you can get a food source (seafood, or game), even a bunch of tundra/ice hills can make a decent city site.

I did not chop a single forest, and built forest preserves for the bonus happiness. The extra commerce from the preserve combined with being able to grow 1 more useful pop seemed more valuable than the 1 extra hammer from a lumbermill. We might want to build some lumbermills for dedicated hammer cities, although we will need to check if more pop is better.

I also did not build a single cottage, although I only played to about T75 or so. Some cottages will be needed eventually, but the instant 3+ commerce from windmills, or 2 from forest preserves, was better than having to work a +1 cottage until it grew. Maybe we should run a windmill/forest preserve/specialist economy in the early game, and only start adding lots of cottages once we reach Democracy and can run Emancipation for rapid growth? Some cottages early where hills and forests are not available, but most later when we can grow them fast.

Anyway, I've said enough for now. It's great to be back for another SGOTM, discussing strategy.

 

[Sleepless]

My initial thoughts on the start.

First is there anyone who can read what is in the fog? Perhaps when we get the save we will be able to tell better.

Second I don't think we should settle in place but unless the scout shows something amazing we need to settle on turn 2.

Third. Where do we move the scout. If we settle S/SE I would move the scout S SE on to the hill as to me settling on turn 2 1S or if its not coastal 1SE can be just as strong.

Fourth. If we settle to the North. I would prefer going NE, N and settle on the forest. Reasoning there is likely a resource on the grass tile and if not we can preserve the forests to the W and there will be a forest there later anyway.

I don't fancy going for the blue circle because it will take 2 turns for the settler to get there and makes it very hard to use the fish although you could settle on the ghill but I think that site is to risky. Thoughts?

Reasons why I like 1S/1SE. Initially it will have 2 corn/3 hills at least. Riverside for later levees and if lots of grass river will make a great capital under beau with cottages/mills etc. It allows a city to the North to work the fish, I would also give it 1 or 2 corn tiles at times and just run scientists. Obviously we need caste but working the fish with lhouse and 1 corn will enable us to run 4 scientists which with philo is the equivalent of 8 early for GP purposes. If we settle to the North initially we will probably have to move the capital later and though there is lots of food only 1 or 2 hills available for mills it will seem production light.

We might find a much better site for our second city so this is probably a bit premature but just my initial thoughts.

Enough from me for now as I have to get ready to go out.

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Signing in


Not much time right now, so I only have a big Welcome for sleepless and KaleLambiek. Looking forward to this game ... let's hurry back to the future ...

 

[haphazard1]

First is there anyone who can read what is in the fog? Perhaps when we get the save we will be able to tell better.

I can not tell much from the picture; as you say, maybe more will be visible with the actual save. There are more trees in the three tiles 2S of the settler, and also in the tiles 2W and 2W1S. I think 2W1N is open grassland. Whether any of those tiles have resources...who knows.

Second I don't think we should settle in place but unless the scout shows something amazing we need to settle on turn 2.

I agree with not wanting to settle in place. Loses the fish permanently, and takes a grass hill we could windmill. I also agree on wanting to settle fast -- on quick speed we can not wander around much. Revolting on turn 0 gives us one "free" turn to move, and that is about it.

Third. Where do we move the scout. If we settle S/SE I would move the scout S SE on to the hill as to me settling on turn 2 1S or if its not coastal 1SE can be just as strong.

I do not like 1SE -- it is not coastal based on what we can see, but would be one off the coast so it would have coast tiles without being able to build a lighthouse. 1S is a possibile candidate. Scout S-SE to the forested hill would be a good move if we want to settle south or southeast.

Fourth. If we settle to the North. I would prefer going NE, N and settle on the forest. Reasoning there is likely a resource on the grass tile and if not we can preserve the forests to the W and there will be a forest there later anyway.

I settled NE,N in my test game and it turned out to be a pretty nice site: coastal with fish, 2 irrigatable corn, and three hills for windmills. I grew it pretty rapidly to size 6,and then pumped out workers and settlers rapidly to expand my empire. That test game also had copper in the open grassland, but I am not sure how likely that is for the real game.

Longer term I found myself wishing there were more forests within the BFC for preserve happiness. But that was a pretty minor issue, as there was plenty of happiness for the early game, and resources plus HR were available in plenty of time.

I don't fancy going for the blue circle because it will take 2 turns for the settler to get there and makes it very hard to use the fish although you could settle on the ghill but I think that site is to risky. Thoughts?

I agree that we do not want to settle on the blue circle. But I believe it means there is something in the fog. Depending what it is, settling the open grass 2N might be worth considering even though it risks settling on copper, iron, or horse. The only way to know for certain would be to send the scout NW, W (or NW, NW if it is land).

Reasons why I like 1S/1SE. Initially it will have 2 corn/3 hills at least. Riverside for later levees and if lots of grass river will make a great capital under beau with cottages/mills etc. It allows a city to the North to work the fish, I would also give it 1 or 2 corn tiles at times and just run scientists. Obviously we need caste but working the fish with lhouse and 1 corn will enable us to run 4 scientists which with philo is the equivalent of 8 early for GP purposes. If we settle to the North initially we will probably have to move the capital later and though there is lots of food only 1 or 2 hills available for mills it will seem production light.

I agree with most of this -- longer term the southern site is likely to make a stronger capital, and we can found another city north to use the fish and whatever is in the fog. The one factor which makes me reluctant is that a large portion of the capital's tiles would not be known -- they could be great, middling, or poor. Moving the scout S, SE would help some, moving S, SW would reveal more of the key tiles. Maybe move the scout to one of these southern tiles, and depending on what we see settle 1S or head north?

We might find a much better site for our second city so this is probably a bit premature but just my initial thoughts.

We will definitely have better information by the time we get a settler out. But we want our capital to be strong enough to get our growth curve going, so deciding how to begin is important. I do like that a 1S site would have a lot of forests, and could grow very large with forest preserve happiness.

 

[haphazard1]

Spent some time today running three test games up to the early AD years. I did not play these as "real" games; I just set the capital on something expensive (Rushmore, hospital, etc.), fortified a Worldbuilt mech inf for defense, and hit enter a lot. I used WorldBuilder to add the advanced techs to all the AIs, and kept an eye on what they did and when things got built/teched.

Key findings:

1) No barbs! None at all. I think it must be something with the advanced techs. All of my test games were barb-free, and everyone else's so far were also. This opens up interesting possibilities for extremely rapid expansion, supported by windmill commerce. Depending on how many AIs are near us, and how much land is available, we could peacefully grab a lot of territory. If the first 15 or so turns reveal no AIs and a lot of land, we may want to consider building a second scout and going directly to rapid REX.

2) The AIs do build airports as early as T45 or so. I do not think this is worthwhile that early, but the airlift capacity this gives them should be kept in mind. Hospitals were also being built, even though with Enviro civic (see #3 next) there could not have been any shortage of health. Spending hammers on these expensive buildings early may slow the AI somewhat.

3) The AIs will revolt to Police State and Environmentalism very early. We were planning Enviro ourselves, but perhaps we should consider PS as well? The civic cost should not actually start biting for a while, and +25% on unit building for our early defenders and escorts might be valuable. We would probably have to swap out of PS later due to the high cost, but we might be able to reach Monarchy in time for that not to cost us much.

The other fun aspect of this is that AIs which have PS as favorite civic are much happier with everyone early on. Genghis Khan, Montezuma, and Shaka are normally unpleasant neighbors and start early wars, but in the test games they were cheerful, happy guys. Sitting Bull is the only leader with Enviro as favorite civic, but if he shows up he will also be kindly disposed towards everyone.

Another thing to note is that the PS favoring civs will never revolt out of it once adopted. So they will never run HR or Rep for happiness, and may have more trouble growing and developing than normal. Forest preserves will offset this somewhat, but if any of these three leaders are in the game, we may be able to take advantage of them.

4) If the AI builds the Oracle, they are taking either Electricity (once) or Genetics (twice), probably because they are the most expensive techs available. Still, I found it interesting that it was not used to found a religion, even when the AI did not have any religion at that point (only 1 case, as other two had already founded religions).

5) In the one case where the AI took Electricity from the Oracle, it later used a GE to build Broadway in about 200 AD. Happiness and powerful trade resources very early -- if we Oracle Electricity, perhaps we should keep this GE possibilty in mind.


OK, here are the key dates I tracked in my notes:

Buddhism - T10, 6, 6
Hinduism - T7, 12, 7
Judaism - T35, 26, 24
Christianity - T71, 64, 70 (T70 = 200 BC)
Confucianism - T55, 68, 76
Stonehenge - T35, 37, 35
Oracle - T46, 41, 44 (T41 = 1540 BC) (none built with marble)
Great Wall - T47, 43, 43 (none built with stone)
Great Lighthouse - T66, 56, 65 (T66 = 300 BC)
Pyramids - T80, 62, 68 (T62 = 520 BC) (builds in 60's by Industrious with no stone)
Colossus - T81, not started by 80, not started by 80)
AI reaches Alpha - T61 (Willem), not by T80, T52 (Joao)

The religions varied quite a bit, depending on how many Spiritual civs were in a given game. Confucianism especially varied greatly; the early T55 result was due to an isolated leader who had no religion spread to him pushing hard to get one.

The wonders were more consistent, with only a couple outliers for Great Lighthouse (early T56) and Pyramids (late T80). The Oracle was gone by middle 40's at latest, by T41 once. If we want it, we will have to go after it quickly; do we spend the turns on Mining and BW, or go up the path to Priesthood right after Agri?

The Great Wall looks to be useless due to the missing barbs, and as creative we do not really need Stonehenge. The Pyramids are going early enough that unless we find stone for city #2 (or #3 at latest) we will not get it without dedicating most of our hammers to it. Great Lighthouse and Colossus depend on the map and how much water we find.

I tracked the AI reaching Alpha to see how much trade opportunity there might be. With multiple windmills early and a solidly BC academy, we should be leading strongly in tech. But being able to trade for older techs while we drive for early CS and Education would be a big advantage. So much depends on which AIs we can reach, but there was a lot of variability. Financial Willem in game 1 was not a surprise, but Joao in game 3 was; no other AI managed better than T75 in that game. And game 2...I don't know what happened there.

Anyway, that's what I saw. Gives some rough idea of what we may see from AIs with the advanced techs.

 

[KaleLambiek]

We will need to see what the scout can reveal, especially to the north and west where that "suggested" circle is. There is almost certainly something interesting off in the fog.

Then again the AI I think will suggest spots on the coast for just beeing on the coast, trading a certain spot with 2 Corns + some hills vs a coastal spot with only 1 corn and possibly other (sea bound) resource?? That is never going to be as good as the corn?

Then again 2 corn is overdoing it a little, probably...

if I teched Agri->Mining->BW->Myst->Poly->Priesthood, and this seemed pretty safe. I built 2 settlers before the Oracle in this time, also.

Where is the wheel? Though we are creative and will connect coastal routes soon, any land bound cities are losing commerce
Though that loss weight in vs the gain of earlier boosted windmills

Of course, we do not have anything but warriors available at the start. Archers require Archery (which we can hopefully skip and get later in trade), and phalanx requires metal, which we may or may not have available early.

A warrior may do nicely camped in a forrest. The main point offcourse is to delay settlement/development. Delaying the advent of IW and maybe even prevent hooking up Iron unless offcourse deviously put under thee capitol.

I also did not build a single cottage, although I only played to about T75 or so.

A Universal sufferage / Free speech / Printing press town is -1 food + 3 commerce vs the windmill.
The time required in quick to go Cottage > Hamlett > Village > Town is 6 + 12 + 24 turns = 42 turns
6 * 3 + 12 * 2 + 24 * 0 (presuming we have Printing press atleast) = 18 + 24 = 32 commerce per windmill>Cottage>Town conversion lost.
Also 6 * 1 + 12 * 1 + 24 * 1 = 6 + 12 + 24 = 42 hammers lost from the windmill.
And offcourse loads of food missed, but at that point our cities should be hitting the limit anyway.
At town any town generates +75% (7 vs 4) for a non-riverside or +60% (8 vs 5) for a riverside tile/hill which means that at say +3 commerce it takes about 32 / 3 = 11 turns to (commerce wize) turn a profit.

Or 3+6+12 = 21 turns (only) when in Representation for a commerce loss of 3*3 + 6*2 + 12*0 = 21 commerce / 3 = 7 turns.

Going with Towns at some point seems like a no brainer to me.

Note:
We may revolt to Enviromentalism on turn 0 but we can also do Slavery + Env a bit later.

I dont know how the math works on the extra turn of revolt = loss of 9 beakers vs +2 commerce of any windmill we work. 5 turns of a windmill means we had better revolt ASAP. < 5 turns windmills we are better off revolting with Slavery.

In the test game reseaching Agri > Mining > BW finished 1 turn before finishing building a worker + Farming the 2 corns + building the first windmill.
I.e. revolt on turn 0 or with Slavery didnt matter.

Reasons why I like 1S/1SE. Initially it will have 2 corn/3 hills at least.

1S I like, On the river and opens up the hill we are on for a windmill
1SE I dont like, it leaves us (as it looks like) 1 off the coast

1S AND 1SE is 2 turns moving and loses out on a corn... Dont particarly like it.
Though moving 1 south loses that open grass, that is likely to contain horses/Metal a ver strong tile indeed

Then again if it contains oil or some other future resource, who cares (much) about that tile?

3) The AIs will revolt to Police State and Environmentalism very early. We were planning Enviro ourselves, but perhaps we should consider PS as well?

+1 hammer on warriors? At about turn 65-70 somewhere I started (in the test game) paying 1g/turn for PS at 4 cities / 22 pop total.

Also dont neglect the power of Airfields, the troop movement bonus, but also the +2 commerce for an extra trade route is nothing to sneeze at.
Even if your commerce totals 40, thats +5% extra commerce

 

[ChrisFromLux]

I do not like 1SE -- it is not coastal based on what we can see, but would be one off the coast so it would have coast tiles without being able to build a lighthouse.

I agree; I can't believe S/SE of the settler is coastal, as the land clearly goes on towards the east. SE/SE/E of the settler is a forest!

I settled NE,N in my test game and it turned out to be a pretty nice site: coastal with fish, 2 irrigatable corn, and three hills for windmills.

Ahem, I only see 2 hills when settling NE/N!

I agree that we do not want to settle on the blue circle. But I believe it means there is something in the fog. Depending what it is, settling the open grass 2N might be worth considering even though it risks settling on copper, iron, or horse. The only way to know for certain would be to send the scout NW, W (or NW, NW if it is land).

I also agree on not settling on the blue circle. This being quick, I think we have to settle on T2, using the revolt as 'free turn'!

2N looks nice because of the blue circle, but as far as we know now, it only gives 1 hill. That's too poor on production for a capital!

Maybe move the scout to one of these southern tiles, and depending on what we see settle 1S or head north?

Hmmm, I don't know what we should do:
- moving the scout S/SE on the forested hill will reveal most tiles, but half of them would not be in the capital BFC and/or water.
- moving the scout S of the settler will only reveal those 3 forested tiles SW, S and SE of that spot, and will still not reveal all of a S-city's BFC
- deciding on moving the scout somewhere S and then not liking what we see (Ice, Tundra?) will force us to move N without anymore knowledge
- idem for moving the scout NW/NW (which looks like land): if we don't like the northern lands, we would be forced to move some south, into the unknown

 

[Sleepless]

I have always favoured 1S as the best place to settle. The reason I mentioned 1SE is because it looks like there might be land there as well. Certainly 3E is coast so it would have at least 1 coastal tile but is there anything in the fog to make up for it? Hence moving the scout 1S then SE would tell us. I think whatever way we go will have a bit of risk involved. Makes it a bit more interesting though.

Regarding tech path. There is no way we can afford to lose the Oracle and do well in this game. Wired mills are the way to go early, Electric adds commerce to water mills as well. I put foward a suggestion of possibly going Agr, Myst, Med, Priest, possibly writing after priest. Not saying its the best way but it is an option. It takes a risk with defence but guarantees us the Oracle. Unless we need to hook up resources I think the wheel can wait for a little while.

For me the first tech has to be Agr and first build worker. That takes us a few turns and we should have a better idea by then. Should .

 

[JerichoHill]

Howdy Everyone. I always tell Hap that he's the better player, but he insists that I am. If that's true, well, shucks.

If you have not signed up over at jerichohill.proboards.com, do so and you can see our thoughts there.

On the initial tech path, assuming we build a worker, and assuming we settle 2E or 1S we will have 2 farms and 2/3 windmills and several forest preserves. So we're fine on utilizing worker turns appropriately if we want to beeline for the Oracle. Then writing so we can immediately build a library and prevent great profits. Essentially, part 2 is a beeline to liberalism, and then part 3 is to beeline to rocketry. I've gotten a spaceship launched in 1600AD in my tests.

Absolutely we revolt to environmentalism on Turn 1 as we move our settler. We lose nothing by doing so!

I am not planning on a warring game. Don't need it with space race, as we need 6 good cities, and 3 of them need to be high hammer total cities.

Airfields are a nice build. Especially if we have met some neighbors.

Welcome to our new members. To all, we want to work on our turnset plans, let's abide by them better this game but also let's not get caught up in details.

And mostly, let's have fun.

Notes for the team:

From May 22nd to Jun 6th, I will be away at my wife's villa near St. Maarten. Vacations are nice. At the villa we don't have internet. The local public library has it, so I will be able to check in and participate in the planning, but I will not be able to take turnsets (and seriously, I'm vacaying on a caribbean island, I will be so drunk you do not WANT me taking turnsets).

 

[KaleLambiek]

Absolutely we revolt to environmentalism on Turn 1 as we move our settler. We lose nothing by doing so!

If we dont settle on turn 1 yes...

I am not planning on a warring game. Don't need it with space race, as we need 6 good cities, and 3 of them need to be high hammer total cities.

THought we arent heading for a domination win, getting more land fast gets our GPT up = more beakers = earlier win.

We dont need to eliminate any AI, but if one is close-ish stalling their development possibly nabbing a worker can only help while later on adding that capitol to our complement of cities.... Also (possibly) allowing a second AI to also take advantage of the space otherwize taken bij our direct neighbour, can only mean 2 bigger people on the plannet that add more beakers....

 

[ChrisFromLux]

THought we arent heading for a domination win, getting more land fast gets our GPT up = more beakers = earlier win.

I completely agree that we have to have more cities than that. We'll stand no chance with only 6 cities!
How would you want to build all those Spaceship-parts ... not to speak of the beakers we would 'lose' by not having more cities!

I'm thinking more like 12-15 cities, with maybe 2 production cities and a mixed capital, and the rest goes fully commerce!

Ideally, we don't have to fight much to get this number of cities, but if we're too boxed in, we'll have to fight 1 or 2 wars. Even if that's not ideal on quick speed, it's necessary to win faster in the end!