SGOTM 09 - Smurkz
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
There are no wonders built.
r_rolo1
King of myself
That is good to know.....
Atleast there are no World wonders built :/ nat ones maybe? That level 2 barb city maybe had popped borders.....
Atleast there are no World wonders built :/ nat ones maybe? That level 2 barb city maybe had popped borders.....
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
I've always wondered exactly what the rules were for knowing where wonders were built. My impression is that if you have met a civ then the Info screen will list that civ next to each wonder it has built, but that if you want to know which city contains a particular wonder then you need to personally see it by line of sight before that info is recorded. Is that correct?
It's not likely to be worth it, not least because we'd probably lose a unit, but is it worth thinking about building a workboat and sending it for a little look-see at the barb city? [Edit: Of course, that will be difficult to do until we at least build a coastal city
.]
It's not likely to be worth it, not least because we'd probably lose a unit, but is it worth thinking about building a workboat and sending it for a little look-see at the barb city? [Edit: Of course, that will be difficult to do until we at least build a coastal city
.]
I'd rather send a galley and a couple maces... 
r_rolo1
King of myself
We only need a coastal city, Sailing and civil service for that, Niklas 
But of course - no one was planning any tricks before the slingshot anyway, right? 
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
But of course - no one was planning any tricks before the slingshot anyway, right?
Speaking of planning... can someone lay out the plan, devoid of tricks, for the next turnset or two so Methos can play? I haven't been able to follow closely, but it sounded from the discussion like there was pretty good agreement on what to do for the next while. If not, could someone summarize where we stand and what needs to be decided? Time's a wastin'...
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Renata's spreadsheet takes us through to the end of Writing, does it not? I think our next point of disagreement is which tech to research after Writing, but that's ten turns away, so Methos should be able to play.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
I'm actually updating the spreadsheet right now, should be done in less than an hour, will post sheet plus screenshots.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
OK, it is possible to get Code of Laws on turn 45 and Oracle on turn 46, at the cost of delaying the second great scientist. At any rate, this spreadsheet should take us well past Methos' turnset before we have to decide how fast we want to build the Oracle.
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/backtothefuture/btfChris.xls
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/backtothefuture/TestBC-1240.CivBeyondSwordSave
Note that the spreadsheet after about turn 35 isn't correct. It had a problem beginning turn 39 with counting how many people we have in the capitol.
It is very important to work the plains forest on turns 26, 27, 28 in order to get the library out one turn earlier. Do not start working the river-grass-forest-preserve the first turn it is available.
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/backtothefuture/btfChris.xls
http://gesserit.net/smurkz/backtothefuture/TestBC-1240.CivBeyondSwordSave
Note that the spreadsheet after about turn 35 isn't correct. It had a problem beginning turn 39 with counting how many people we have in the capitol.
It is very important to work the plains forest on turns 26, 27, 28 in order to get the library out one turn earlier. Do not start working the river-grass-forest-preserve the first turn it is available.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Nice work, Chris! 
I think getting the Oracle earlier is definitely worth it. When can Methos play?
I think getting the Oracle earlier is definitely worth it. When can Methos play? 
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
I'm not so sure. The point of getting Oracle for the CS sling was also to do a 1 turn revolt to Pac, Bur, and CS while also generating the second GS to bulb philo. Not getting the second GS for philo nixes Pac, and then the revolt turns into just Bureau and CS. I'd rather get all for at turn 50 or so, rather than Oracle on 46, revolting, then waiting for another GS, bulbing philo, then doing another revolt. While the above maximizes hammers, by not having 2 scientists working (and in some cases no scientists working) we're severely shooting ourselves in the foot by taking away beakers short-term and killing us long-term by delaying our GP. I don't see the upside here at all by maximizing hammers this early.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
BL, I think you've got good points. My point was that we might have more options, but they don't kick in until the turn we build the academy. Methos definitely won't be playing that many turns, so if everyone is agreed with the first part of Renata's plan with my cleanups, then we can move forward with this turnset. In fact, we probably don't have to make the decision until after both Methos and Xc's turnsets.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Oh, and getting the library out one turn earlier actually gets us more beakers, since it gets the GS and academy faster, it gets the second city founded one turn earlier, etc. It only requires us to work a plains hill for one turn instead of a riverside forest preserve. The other two turns, there isn't an extra preserve to work.
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
Alright, I ran through a few more test games to see what I could come up with, and in my mind here's the best case scenario that I found:
T14: Start Writing, Farm finished. Worker #1 to 1 N Corn.
T18: Worker #2 done. Start Warrior. Farm finished. Worker #2 1 N to hill
T19: Worker #1 1 SE to hill. Worker #2 start Windmill
T20: Worker #1 start Windmill
T21: Pop 2. Work 2 Corn.
T22: Windmill done.
T23: Pop 3. Work 2 Corn, 1 Windmill. Worker #1 finish Windmill. Worker #2 1 S, 1 SW to Plains Forest.
T24: Pop 4. Work 2 Corn, 2 Windmill. Writing done -> Mysticism. Worker #1 1 W, 1 SW (to capital). Worker #2 start Preserve.
T25: Warrior done. Start Library. Worker #1 1 SW to Plains Forest.
T26: Pop 5. Work 2 Corn, 2 Windmill, 1 Plains Forest.
T27: Mysticism done -> Meditation. Forest Preserve done. Work tile if not already selected.
T28: Pop 6. Work 2 Corn, 2 Windmill, 1 Plains Forest Preserve, 1 Plains Forest tile. Workers #1 and #2 1 W to plains forest.
T29: Library -> Warrior (For New City garrison). Work 2 Corn, 2 Windmill, 2 Scientist. Workers start Forest Preserve.
T31: Warrior -> Settler. Pop 7. Work 2 Corn, 2 Windmill, 1 Plains Forest Preserve, 2 Scientist. Meditation -> Priesthood
T32: Workers #1 and #2 1 SE to hill. Priesthood -> Mathematics.
T33: Workers #1 and #2 start Windmill.
T34: Windmill done. Switch 1 Plains Forest Preserve to new Windmill.
T35: GS builds Academy. Workers #1 and #2 1 NE to Grassland River Forest.
T37: Settler -> Oracle
T38: Mathematics-> Code of Laws. Forest Preserve done
T39: Worker #1 and #2 1 NE to Grassland River Forest.
T40: Worker #1 and #2 start Forest Preserve
T41: New City settled, start worker(?). 0% research. Pop 8. Work same tiles as above + 1 Forest Plains Preserve.
T42: 100% research. Forest Preserve finished.
T43: Worker #1 and #2 1 S to Grassland River Forest.
T44: Worker #1 and #2 start Preserve
T45: Code of Laws -> Alphabet. Confucianism founded in New City. Missionary heads to capital. Switch Plains Forest Preserve to working Grassland River Forest Preserve (loss of one hammer does not affect Oracle completion date at this point).
T46: GS, save for bulb. Pop 9, 2 Corn, 3 Windmill, 2 Grassland Forest Preserves, 2 Scientists.
T47: Workers #1 and #2 1 NW, 1 W to grassland forest.
T48: Oracle (Civil Service)
At this point, there's 2 turns until Alphabet is in and assuming we haven't found anyone to trade with, 1 turn for wheel. That puts the bulb of Philosophy on turn 51 and subsequent revolt on that turn as well. Happy cap in capital is +1 at 10. Downside to this plan is neglect of New City, since workers need to keep upgrading around the capital.
Another thing we should decide is if we want Confucianism founded in our capital. If so, by swapping Code of Laws after Priesthood instead of researching Mathematics, we can have Confucianism founded in Smurkazi on turn 40, one turn before New City is settled. By doing this, we take advantage of a possible shrine and bureaucracy, which could be quite advantageous depending on religion spread. After the Oracle is in, we'd have roughly a 25% chance of popping a Great Prophet for a shrine. The most significant drawback later would be losing a double holy city later and thus weaken Wall Street long term, assuming we chose to build it there.
A few other things to note as well. I've noticed barb spearmen and axemen walking around past turn 40 or so most of the time. None have entered my borders, but it's something to keep in mind. Also, once the Oracle fell on turn 44, but otherwise I was able to build it. Thoughts?
T14: Start Writing, Farm finished. Worker #1 to 1 N Corn.
T18: Worker #2 done. Start Warrior. Farm finished. Worker #2 1 N to hill
T19: Worker #1 1 SE to hill. Worker #2 start Windmill
T20: Worker #1 start Windmill
T21: Pop 2. Work 2 Corn.
T22: Windmill done.
T23: Pop 3. Work 2 Corn, 1 Windmill. Worker #1 finish Windmill. Worker #2 1 S, 1 SW to Plains Forest.
T24: Pop 4. Work 2 Corn, 2 Windmill. Writing done -> Mysticism. Worker #1 1 W, 1 SW (to capital). Worker #2 start Preserve.
T25: Warrior done. Start Library. Worker #1 1 SW to Plains Forest.
T26: Pop 5. Work 2 Corn, 2 Windmill, 1 Plains Forest.
T27: Mysticism done -> Meditation. Forest Preserve done. Work tile if not already selected.
T28: Pop 6. Work 2 Corn, 2 Windmill, 1 Plains Forest Preserve, 1 Plains Forest tile. Workers #1 and #2 1 W to plains forest.
T29: Library -> Warrior (For New City garrison). Work 2 Corn, 2 Windmill, 2 Scientist. Workers start Forest Preserve.
T31: Warrior -> Settler. Pop 7. Work 2 Corn, 2 Windmill, 1 Plains Forest Preserve, 2 Scientist. Meditation -> Priesthood
T32: Workers #1 and #2 1 SE to hill. Priesthood -> Mathematics.
T33: Workers #1 and #2 start Windmill.
T34: Windmill done. Switch 1 Plains Forest Preserve to new Windmill.
T35: GS builds Academy. Workers #1 and #2 1 NE to Grassland River Forest.
T37: Settler -> Oracle
T38: Mathematics-> Code of Laws. Forest Preserve done
T39: Worker #1 and #2 1 NE to Grassland River Forest.
T40: Worker #1 and #2 start Forest Preserve
T41: New City settled, start worker(?). 0% research. Pop 8. Work same tiles as above + 1 Forest Plains Preserve.
T42: 100% research. Forest Preserve finished.
T43: Worker #1 and #2 1 S to Grassland River Forest.
T44: Worker #1 and #2 start Preserve
T45: Code of Laws -> Alphabet. Confucianism founded in New City. Missionary heads to capital. Switch Plains Forest Preserve to working Grassland River Forest Preserve (loss of one hammer does not affect Oracle completion date at this point).
T46: GS, save for bulb. Pop 9, 2 Corn, 3 Windmill, 2 Grassland Forest Preserves, 2 Scientists.
T47: Workers #1 and #2 1 NW, 1 W to grassland forest.
T48: Oracle (Civil Service)
At this point, there's 2 turns until Alphabet is in and assuming we haven't found anyone to trade with, 1 turn for wheel. That puts the bulb of Philosophy on turn 51 and subsequent revolt on that turn as well. Happy cap in capital is +1 at 10. Downside to this plan is neglect of New City, since workers need to keep upgrading around the capital.
Another thing we should decide is if we want Confucianism founded in our capital. If so, by swapping Code of Laws after Priesthood instead of researching Mathematics, we can have Confucianism founded in Smurkazi on turn 40, one turn before New City is settled. By doing this, we take advantage of a possible shrine and bureaucracy, which could be quite advantageous depending on religion spread. After the Oracle is in, we'd have roughly a 25% chance of popping a Great Prophet for a shrine. The most significant drawback later would be losing a double holy city later and thus weaken Wall Street long term, assuming we chose to build it there.
A few other things to note as well. I've noticed barb spearmen and axemen walking around past turn 40 or so most of the time. None have entered my borders, but it's something to keep in mind. Also, once the Oracle fell on turn 44, but otherwise I was able to build it. Thoughts?
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
BL, your scenario is identical to the scenarios presented by me and Renata through turn 35, right?
So my main thought is, let's play through turn 35 - that's Methos and Xc's turnsets. Both my plan and Renata's plan were pretty much speculation after the Academy was built.
So my main thought is, let's play through turn 35 - that's Methos and Xc's turnsets. Both my plan and Renata's plan were pretty much speculation after the Academy was built.
I agree mostly with BL's comments on Chris' scenario, though I still think what Chris did is useful since it shows clearly that we can speed the Oracle up. So the question to me is then if research can be sped up as well, to get all required techs by turn 49.
Also, Chris, you should put the build numbers on the turn when the total goes high enough, not the turn after. Doing it your way messes up overflows, for instance you get too little overflow from the second worker into the warrior since you have the 40 listed one turn too late. With those extra hammers you get, you will have Library on turn 29.
Regarding BL's scenario, it's interesting but I think it has some drawbacks compared to my suggestion (which hasn't been formalized yet). The fact that we go for Alphabet last means we would have no chance to trade for anything if we were to meet anyone - we haven't given up on that completely, have we?
I also don't immediately understand why we want to preserve a non-riverside plains forest. Sure we probably want to work a plains forest for a few turns, but it seems to me that we'd lose less by working an unpreserved plains forest then, and a riverside preserved grass forest otherwise. That also avoids losing a worker turn. Hmm ok, I'm looking at your tile allocations, and you don't seem to miss out on anything thanks to working those scientists. You're working a few more turns of plains forest, but maybe that's just what we need. I'm not fully convinced, but it's a clever thought that should be investigated further. Note that this means that plans deviate already on turn 24 though, after Methos' turns but certainly not after Xcal's.
I don't see the reason to have shrines in the capital. The output from the shrine is not multiplied by Bureaucracy, only commerce is multiplied while the shrine gives gold. I think a double holy city by the cows is more appealing. And as noted I still want to go for Alphabet first. Again though, good thinking to spot such a detail, it's ideas like these that will allow us to refine and perfect our plans.
I need to catch up on some work today, but the MTDG has thankfully calmed down so any spare time I find I can use on some spreadsheeting for this game.
Also, Chris, you should put the build numbers on the turn when the total goes high enough, not the turn after. Doing it your way messes up overflows, for instance you get too little overflow from the second worker into the warrior since you have the 40 listed one turn too late. With those extra hammers you get, you will have Library on turn 29.
Regarding BL's scenario, it's interesting but I think it has some drawbacks compared to my suggestion (which hasn't been formalized yet). The fact that we go for Alphabet last means we would have no chance to trade for anything if we were to meet anyone - we haven't given up on that completely, have we?
I also don't immediately understand why we want to preserve a non-riverside plains forest. Sure we probably want to work a plains forest for a few turns, but it seems to me that we'd lose less by working an unpreserved plains forest then, and a riverside preserved grass forest otherwise. That also avoids losing a worker turn. Hmm ok, I'm looking at your tile allocations, and you don't seem to miss out on anything thanks to working those scientists. You're working a few more turns of plains forest, but maybe that's just what we need. I'm not fully convinced, but it's a clever thought that should be investigated further. Note that this means that plans deviate already on turn 24 though, after Methos' turns but certainly not after Xcal's.
I don't see the reason to have shrines in the capital. The output from the shrine is not multiplied by Bureaucracy, only commerce is multiplied while the shrine gives gold. I think a double holy city by the cows is more appealing. And as noted I still want to go for Alphabet first. Again though, good thinking to spot such a detail, it's ideas like these that will allow us to refine and perfect our plans.
I need to catch up on some work today, but the MTDG has thankfully calmed down so any spare time I find I can use on some spreadsheeting for this game.
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