SGOTM 09 - Smurkz

[Renata]

Woot turn 28! That beats me by one turn. And it's the fact that your version grows to size 5 the turn before mine does that lets you complete the library in just four turns rather than five without severely restricting growth.

You do still restrict growth compared to my version, though, as mine is able to reach size 7 on turn 29 thanks in part to that handful of extra worker turns gained from starting worker-worker. The benefit of doing it that way is the extra commerce mostly -- assume you stick to the 26bpt setup, which would finish the settler about turn 37, same as in my version -- you make 26*6+36*3=264 beakers during that period while my version makes 18+26*2+30*4+42*2=274 despite the later academy.

 

[Xcalibrator]

With the intention of leaving Renata free to continue doing much more useful things, I've appropriated her idea of making a sort of Reference post on the first page--see Post 18 and please suggest other things to add.

 

[unkle]

XCal, Renata, BL, you just rock !



Can't wait to see Niklas turnset, though I will most probably not be available online at night before Friday (I guess).

I would say that I'd take the AH route, just because I would guess we have horses and because sheep/cows are on the radar. Plus it is a little faster than wheel/pottery. Of course given the fact we are not health/happiness limited, granary might very well be more powerful to us than lib in the mid-term. Mmm. Not sure we are going to whip too much though (even with no random event) or at least not that soon... Plus it would require another revolt.

If I can find time tonight (doubtful but...) I may see what a Mining->BW->Slavery->Wheel->Pottery->Lib could do. Feels like it would'nt do much.

The other reason I think AH is better is because, since we are not going to chop/mine a lot, we might end up delaying this path to speed others (CS mainly). Meaning we need horses to defend ourselves before we can backfill throuhg trade (at least I hope we can do this).

 

[Niklas]

Nice work all, it's very interesting to see these tests. I've been very busy today, but I don't think we're ready to play tonight anyway.

I think we're decided on going the AH route next. The question is whether to go worker->worker right away, for Library on turn 29, or worker->(warrior)->worker for Library on turn 28. Renata's numbers suggest that we actually gain beakers by taking the 1 turn slower route. On the other hand we delay the GS by one turn - and the next GS as well, and the next, and the next. I haven't digested the differences between the two approaches in detail yet so I don't feel ready to cast a verdict yet.

Responding to unkle, there's no way we do not want to target Writing for the Library first. We're Philosophical, which means we can have an ultrafast Academy up, and we'd be fools not to go for that with all the commerce we will have with the special setup in this game.

My prefered tech path is at this point AH->Writing. After Writing I would really like to go for Alphabet, to backfill techs like Wheel and BW and IW. But that depends completely on who and how many opponents our scout manages to meet before that time. If we don't go Alphabet, I would probably shoot for Maths->Myst->Med->PH->CoL and then sling for CS.

I will play tomorrow evening.

 

[Methos]

In my G-Minor 69 games I'm finding that letting the AIs research Alpha for me allows me to beeline the required techs and get a large jump on the AIs tech-wise. Granted, that's OCC where focus is more important.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I played both scenarios using BL's save. I kept the scout in the capital to minimize pollution from knowing the French. I researched to Priesthood and then Aesthetics, figured changing Renata's tech path wouldn't significantly change her setup and would give better comparison. Both scenarios built a settler immediately after the library. I stopped when I completed the settler and began the Oracle. Here are the files.

http://gesserit.net/smurkz/backtothefuture/BLBC-1720.CivBeyondSwordSave

BL starts the Oracle on turn 38 with 252 beakers toward Aesthetics, 36 bpt, 5 pop with size 6 coming in 3 turns, happy 8/5 with two forest preserves just started, second GS in 7 turns.

http://gesserit.net/smurkz/backtothefuture/RenataBC-1720.CivBeyondSwordSave

Renata's worker moves included building a forest preserve on a plains river forest tile, which we do not have, so I adjusted to work a plains forest, then switch to the grassland forest preserve when it became available. Also, Renata's spreadsheet breaks down around turns 26-28... so I just went with it as best possible, working plains forests then switching to grass forest preserves when available. As a result, the town grew faster than planned, but that worked out OK with the workers team building forest preserves. At any rate, Renata also starts Oracle on turn 38, with 280 beakers towards Aesthetics, 47 bpt, 7 pop with 8 coming in 11 turns, happy 8/7 with two forest preserves nearly complete, second GS in 9 turns.

I think Renata's plan needs a little cleanup (which unfortunately I don't have time to do at the moment) but is clearly stronger. The only negative to Renata's plan is the second GS in 9 turns instead of 7.

 

[Renata]

I'll fix it sometime today. The test save I played from had a plains forest due east of the city rather than a grassland forest as in the real save; that's where the problem occurred I think, because I was able to play it out myself without any problems.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

OK, sounds good. Take a look at your worker move instructions as well - at least one time, the worker was instructed to move into the ocean . It was easy enough to figure out what you really meant to do.

p.s. the missing hammer is the reason the library comes in one turn later in Renata's plan, but the town grows faster, so beakers are higher.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

These are the worker moves I used - the two workers have to team up to build the first two forest preserves to keep the capital happy.

Worker 1
Move NE, farm
Move N, farm
Move SE, windmill
Move SW, forest preserve
Move S, forest preserve
Move W, forest preserve

Worker 2
Move N, windmill
Move SE, forest preserve
Move S, forest preserve
Move SW, forest preserve

 

[Renata]

East, west, same thing, right?

 

[Renata]

Looked at it again, and in fact it does appear to be the case that there is no way the capital can continue to grow rapidly past size 5 without doubling up on both of the first two forest preserves. I bashed my head against it for over an hour without getting anywhere. And if we want to get more commerce than BL's version supplies, we do in fact need to go all the way to size 7 before pausing, so we're stuck with that unless Niklas can come up with something better.

In any case, I fixed my version of the spreadsheet to account for the lack of a plains river forest and the presence of an extra river forest and hill. I think Chris might have worked slightly different tiles, because the second GS comes a turn earlier than he had and the commerce isn't exactly the same either. I did put in a worker rather than a settler after library-warrior, but that shouldn't have affected the commerce output over that timeframe.

Oh, and I can't swear my worker directions are correct this time either. Though at least what they're doing on the potentially non-existent tiles should be right.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

First, if we are going for an Oracle slingshot (and I think we should) then we definitely need to build a settler in between the library and the Oracle.

Second, if you can get the GS one turn earlier, that's even better. It means the only drawback to your plan (compared to BL's) is a one turn delay on great people. I think pop 7 + extra commerce vs. pop 5 + less commerce is worth that trade.

Note that the reason I think it's worth growing to size 7 is because riverside forest preserves are such great tiles - 2f / 1h / 3c.

 

[Niklas]

When do we plan to complete the Oracle?

Going by Renata's sheet, it seems we could have Maths and CoL complete by turn 44. If we build worker after library, and then Oracle, we can have the Oracle completed on turn 47. We have a GS pop on turn 46, that could bulb Philosophy only if we already have Alphabet at that time (which we won't obviously). Otherwise we would bulb Alphabet. We could research Alphabet after Maths, and have it on turn 49, bulb Philosophy and switch to Pac+Caste+Bur in one go.

But if turn 49 is our target for having all those techs, maybe we should aim to have Oracle complete that turn too. And if we need to research Alphabet anyway in order to get the right tech bulbed, we may as well research it right after Writing and hope we can trade for Myst and/or Med while we research Maths. Doing that could potentially also allow us to trade for other fun techs like Wheel and Mining and Bronze - which might even help us with the Oracle if we could chop that forested hill we have.

I'm currently looking at a way to get as much as possible by turn 49. I don't feel like we're fully decided yet - though I could play the few turns up until we complete the first worker, just to get some more land scouted.

 

[Backwards Logic]

I agree that Niklas should play a few turns, scout some land, and hopefully meet some AI's. This way, I can continue to update the test save as we progress. We're all in agreement anyway that AH should be next and that the first worker move should be to farm the closest corn.

 

[Niklas]

Alright, I'll go play those turns then, just to get moving.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Yes, we definitely need more land scouted.

Are we really planning to build the Oracle without building a settler first? This is Monarch...

 

[Niklas]

Niklas: Some wines, always something

Turn 8/330 (3520 BC) [02-Apr-2009 23:59:24]
Niklas: here cometh the animals - a wolf
Niklas: some cows and a river south of those mountains, looks like we know where the second city will go
While defending in the wild, Scout defeats (1.00/1): Barbarian Wolf (Prob Victory: 99.9%)

Turn 9/330 (3460 BC) [03-Apr-2009 00:00:46]
Niklas: woot, no damage taken against the wolf
Niklas: clams and fish and rice, this southern land really isn't so shabby

Turn 10/330 (3400 BC) [03-Apr-2009 00:01:50]
Niklas: ok, here comes the bear...
Smurkzaki finishes: Worker
While defending in the wild, Scout defeats (0.54/1): Barbarian Bear (Prob Victory: 20.7%)

Turn 11/330 (3340 BC) [03-Apr-2009 00:03:18]
Smurkzaki begins: Worker (10 turns)
Niklas: YEEEAAAHH!!!

Here's an overview of the southern lands:

Spoiler :

 

[Backwards Logic]

Nice to see the scout has learned to defend himself against a bear attack

I'm currently working on a brand-new WB save that has Justinian in where he is supposed to be on the map. I went to edit the old one, and for some reason adding in ocean tiles makes the map look goofy, which in turn makes being able to tell in some instances which tile is which. So I'm putting together a brand new map from scratch that won't have this issue, so as we explore I can easily have the new land added without it looking odd. Hopefully it'll be uploaded sometime tonight for your enjoyment. To be honest there's nothing wrong with the old map I made (except minus the new land we scouted), I'm just really particular with how things should look.

 

[r_rolo1]

BL, that is because the game still remembers what was in the tile before. If you restart the game and load it, the appearance gets normal.

Niklas, good to know you mastered the art of killing bears with scouts

 

[Methos]

Assuming nothing to the east of the clams, I'd say settle 1N of the cow and possibly another city 1E of the rice that would allow the cow to be shared. That's if nothing else comes into view south of the wine.