• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

SGOTM 10 - One Short Straw

AlanH

Mac addict, php monkey
Moderator
Hall of Fame Staff
GOTM Staff
Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
29,688
Location
England

BtS SGOTM 10 - Armageddon



Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 10 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

In this, the third BtS SGOTM, Gyathaar wants nuclear devastation. Stalin of Russia starts in the Renaissance era in 1285 AD, in a world with five Aggressive AI civs. He is hell bent on world conquest, BUT he can only capture a city if he nukes it first.

It's a fight to the nuclear death in an Epic speed, Emperor difficulty game on a Small sized Big and Small map. There are no goody huts, no events, no city razing, no city flipping, no Vassals. Only Conquest is enabled.

It's a standard Renaissance start, so you get a lot of techs at the beginning. Cities are created with pop 2 and a few buildings. You start with two settlers, two longbows, one explorer and a worker. The AI start with two settlers, four longbows, two explorers and a worker.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.19, using the new all-singing, all-dancing HoF Mod BUFFY-3.19.001. This HoF Mod version is available now. You can download it here.

If a later BtS patch is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in version 3.19 before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.

Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows game on their system.

Timetable
The game will start on Friday, August 7 .

Your start file, and then each submitted Save for your team, will be linked on the Progress and Results Page throughout the game. Please ensure that you only download your own team file.

The finish deadline is December 7 2009. If any team has not finished by this date they will be deemed to have retired, and will not be eligible for any awards.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



Map Parameters
  • Playable Leader/Civ - Stalin of the Russian Empire.
  • Traits - Aggressive, Industrious.
  • Unique Unit - Cossack (replaces Cavalry)
  • Unique Building - Research Institute (replaces Laboratory)
  • Renaissance Era start - turn 277, 1285 AD.
  • Difficulty - Emperor
  • Game Speed - Epic (473 turns)
  • World size - Small
  • Rivals - Five
  • Landform - Big and Small
  • Other settings - No city razing, No Culture Flips, No goodie huts, No events, Aggressive AI, No Vassals
  • Victory Conditions - Conquest Only
Notes
  • Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  • Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the Fastest Conquest victory, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. You will drop down the final ranking table* for each city that you capture without nuking it with a direct hit first. A "Capture" is defined as any method of obtaining a city other than by building it yourself using a settler. A "Capture" also includes retrieving a city you originally built but lost.

    *The final ranking will sort teams in the following order:
    1. Win, lose or retire. Wins go first. Retirements go last.
    2. For wins, the number of un-nuked cities captured. Zero missed cities go first.
    3. For wins, the finish date.
    4. For losses and retirements, final score will determine their rankings within those categories.
  • All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun.
 
Also, note the post by Gyathaar in the maintenance thread about religions. Apparently we won't be getting any as they've all been pre-founded in barbarian cities :( So no debate about OR or pacifism any more.
 
It has now been changed so only 1 religion is founded in each city, so each civ will get 1 religion.
 
It has now been changed so only 1 religion is founded in each city, so each civ will get 1 religion.

That makes sense. I'm used to playing standard maps with 7 civs, which gives 1 religion to each civ with a renaissance start. So with only 5 civs, by default some would get 2. So I think that means there are two pre-built barb cities out there with religions.

Also, Soirana and RRR are out on vacation so how do we want to proceed? I'm inclined to play test various strategies for now as we need to figure out a big picture strategy before we start playing here.
 
That makes sense. I'm used to playing standard maps with 7 civs, which gives 1 religion to each civ with a renaissance start. So with only 5 civs, by default some would get 2. So I think that means there are two pre-built barb cities out there with religions.

Also, Soirana and RRR are out on vacation so how do we want to proceed? I'm inclined to play test various strategies for now as we need to figure out a big picture strategy before we start playing here.

I thought there were 5AI, so only one barb holy city...

Yeah, we need to nail down a good chunk of the game before playing the first turn, if for no other reason than civic switches. Should we set up something more structured for the test games? Like, play with the same map, test specific civic combos, expansion strategies, etc. Seems that the things we've generally been in agreement on so far is the Rep slingshot, and maybe a predominantly specialist economy. Are those solid enough not to need testing?

PS: are you planning to re-post our PM discussion here?
 
I tend to think that we should test anyway, since I'm not sure on the strategy yet. Of course this is because I've just been brought in, but I'd like to do a test run anyway. It's an unorthodox start so I'll have to rethink several options anyway.

What is the plan for the test games?
 
RRRaskolnikov said:
Soirana said:
RRRaskolnikov said:
I find blitz gunships (upgraded from our cossacks) amazing with paratroopers... those bad boys can kill 4 units a turn (nuked defenders), then a para can take the empty city from distance...
That would need "training" wars ofc to gather xp for our cossacks, as well as get our military machine up (medic, HE unlocking unit)...

That's my first thought reading Shyuhe's post, open to everything!

Cheers
take with grain of salt cause times i used:
nukes - 1 - yesterday just to see how they work actually [still no idea that is different between tactical and ICBM]
gunships - once on Earth 18 map 1.5 years ago,
cossaks - 0 [although they die to pinch rifles and infantry easily]
paratroopers - 0.

From what i recall gunships can't kill last defender in city so no empty city for para.
In my thoughts it was best to nuke them out and drop pratroopers in. In that way war can go in real blitzkrieg form.
Also i am rather unsure if gunships are on tech path which should be minimal. Also we could dodge all that building cossacks and upgrade part. [mmm... all national wonders available at Reneissance start, right?]

Have you tried checking that best gains of lib can be? IMO, with double beureau gold +pacifism and caste [and trilion of food i saw in shot] post SM tech is possible but somewhat risky.

Soirana.

Yeah gunships can kill the last defender, they can't enter the city that's all...
But your other points are all valid (we can definately pass on building cavs to tech faster)...
That was just a first thought, I really need to play a test game to get the feel of what is possible (no idea of national wonders, I think red cross and late biology stuff won't be avaliable from start though)
But I think we can definately aim to lib a post SM tech...

Cheers

10 char
 
Soirana said:
>It's going to be awfully hard to get a good liberalism
>tech with a renaissance start. The only techs you
>need for it from the start are education +
>liberalism. The last time I played a renaissance
>start (old gauntlet), I farmed a GS immediately in
>mercantilism (was playing as Izzy) and bulbed
>education. Then straight shot to liberalism going
>for military tradition and stomped on the AI. Now
>the stomping part doesn't work given our rules so
>we need an alternative. But I wouldn't count on a
>very effective liberalism sling. I'd go for a rather
>safe (I think) SM sling.

i played quick test game i got SM with spare GE and next city being nine turns away from GS.
Keep in mind from about turn15 i played with automated workers and automated city production. I also jumped to caste somwhat late so governor managed to slave three guys for bank or something like that.
Post SM thing is probably possible [with some risk].
On other hand is SM shot worth it?
A) it can be bulbed [and bulbing later with more population is somewhat better]
B)it probably requires double bulbed astro which is overbulb [did not calculated how much]
Does gain in beakers/tech is really worth it?
I thought trying simply taking Economics for GM [and mission] and actually doing sort of rexing, followed by bulbing through SM. I doubt it would be very efective however.

>Regarding nukes
Sorry if question is dumb can SDI be destroyed/sabotaged?

>The biggest issue in this game is going to be getting >fast research going and MINIMIZING the number of >cities the AI settles.

Depends on start honestly. If we are on small part of big and small not much can be done.
Wasn't it in opening post something about 5aggresive AI?

>The key will be setting up Oxford in a well cottaged
>city fast, or to go the route of SGOTM9 and get
>national park + Oxford up in a city ASAP.
you sure cottages will give enough? in theory we are not far from representation while if it is possible to get biology from liberalism than all way to fission seems bulbable while normal research could be directed towards rocketry. The only problem i see that expansion+Oxford building does not go well with aggresive pursuit on liberalism.

> I'm not entirely sold on gunships + paras.
>cities - tank/marines probably.
Depends how map is generated B&S can honestly be tweaked in few ways even before hand editing. Low water massive continents IMHO is more believable than high water snaky islands mixed in.
That about nuking into oblivion and simply sending paras? or SDI thing would make that to costly?
Although probably after nuking something basic like infantry might do moping up?
This actually leads to other problem: we are clearly in two stage campaign - heavy teching to nukes and heavy production afterwards. Is really cottages way to go?
Does rush buying via universal sufferage outweights transformation to workshops and potentially police state?
On paper i like Specialist heavy approach although i am unsure if it would generate enough beakers while moving towards rocketry.

>I'm almost certain we'll get declared at some point.
Quoted for truth.
But these are emperor AI's who do not have stacks who started being built at BC... On test run i got declared at about turn 30 [normal speed]. Ragnar sent two trebs, pike and a mace. My original longbows handled them nicely...


10 char
 
RRRaskolnikov said:
Nice discussion guys...

I am a bit tired and sloppy (and still haven't played a renai start, unlike you) so just few remarks.

I like the "specilist heavy approach" as Soirana called it... I think an Oxford Nat Park or NE OXford combo can be enough to carry our most of the research together with bulbs. Rep scientists will start strong unlike crappy cottages which need emancipation to start growing correctly. Even then, the opportunity cost is huge. Scientists will skyrocket compared to the cottages here, and this way, we can safely forget emancipation (Stalin would be proud)... This goes well with workshop everywhere else (caste/SP workshops) approach. This way we can have huge science AND huge production... (prod cities building wealth/beaker to fit empire needs)
In anyway, I see no point to build cottages in the renaissance to bulldoze them later. I have already difficulties building them with an ancient start, I fail to see how they could be better in a renaissance start :)

Second stuff: I forgot :lol:... will see tomorow if it's back...

anyway, that's my 1 am thinking... don't be too harsh ;)

Cheers

PS: is nationalism available at start? if not, I might change my mind...
PS2:downside of specialist approach, crucial choice from the start: rep first or Oxford first?

10char
 
babybluepants said:
Wow, great discussion already! :) Are all of you from Europe? All the posting seems to happen while I'm at work.

I still have to play a test on a renaissance start... My main concern here is getting trapped with little land to settle, given the restriction on conquest. I'd prefer aggressive settling over aggressive liberalism tactics. SM is kind of a lynchpin tech for everything that follows, it should do fine.

I guess I'm wondering to what extent this really needs to be a 2-stage game... Like shyuhe said, we need to strike some sort of a balance between teching fast and restricting ai. I suppose you were talking more about keeping them at a tech disadvantage. Restricting their expansion in any kind of significant way for the duration of the game seems like a tall order, but we could test a very aggressive approach...

Without putting much thought into it, I'm more for tanks and marines, than paratroopers. The requisite tech path is useful anyway, and I'd prefer to not tech more than we really need to.

I like SE with OU + NP for this. Like Raskolnikov, I have enough trouble getting non-financial cottages to contribute with an ancient start. I like skipping Democracy if I can help it, too. State Prop / workshops also seems good. Even though we have some at the start, I'm not sure how many corporate resources we can get in good time without capturing cities. This would also maybe let us skip some sidebar techs early and make a straight run for rocketry / fission. We might not get to trade techs in this game, but if we can manage to backfill a few late, that would be nice.

I believe the tech paths involved are:

Educ > Lib
PP > Astro > SM > Phys > Elec > Fiss (Nukes)
Nati > Cons (Rep)
Communism (SP)
Gunpowder > Chem > Bio (NP)
RP > Rifling > Steel > Artillery > Rocketry (Nukes)
Econ > Corp > Steam > AL > Indu / Fasc (Tank, PS)
Comb > Flight (Paras)

I'm probably forgetting something... Do any of you guys know the exact GS bulbing path through this? That would be good to know.

peace, m.

10char
 
Soirana said:
babybluepants said:
Are all of you from Europe?

My main concern here is getting trapped with little land to settle, given the restriction on conquest. I'd prefer aggressive settling over aggressive liberalism tactics. SM is kind of a lynchpin tech for everything that follows, it should do fine.
Me and Raskonikov are surely Europian.

Well, if we are not on same landmass we can't stop AI from settling. At least without killing ourselves in trying to do so.

Aggressive choking is another question [if we have target]. Have not tried that, main concern here is that from what i saw gunpowder gets traded around rather easily and muskets will probably deal with choking longbows eventually.
Although if we are on landmass with few of them it might be considered.

I honestly spend some time trying hypnotize starting screenshot.
If i understand something than upper part looks rather snaky actually [which migh mean good choke/blockpoints]. Also i have doubts if it is possible to irrigate corn and rice just bu city placing [unless you want to be 1S of starting hill which i don't].

Also i have not noticed fast settling for AI [they rather make racks and some more units, maybe caravel if in seperated landmass]. It took them some time to get settler out.
Although AI's make one hell of academies [and next to no libraries] unluckily we can get these nice academized spots fast.

as GS preferences goes i usually try this:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952
I thought of part bulbing nationalism with GM in order to lib into representation, but that is next to improbable.

10char
 
RRRaskolnikov said:
babybluepants said:
Wow, great discussion already! :) Are all of you from Europe? All the posting seems to happen while I'm at work.
I am from france, can't speak for the others ... (though, I confess posting mostly at work :blush:)

I still have to play a test on a renaissance start... My main concern here is getting trapped with little land to settle, given the restriction on conquest. I'd prefer aggressive settling over aggressive liberalism tactics. SM is kind of a lynchpin tech for everything that follows, it should do fine.

I need to play too before arguing more...

I guess I'm wondering to what extent this really needs to be a 2-stage game... Like shyuhe said, we need to strike some sort of a balance between teching fast and restricting ai. I suppose you were talking more about keeping them at a tech disadvantage. Restricting their expansion in any kind of significant way for the duration of the game seems like a tall order, but we could test a very aggressive approach...

How about tribal warfare before the nukes... styke AW, keeping the AIs small and backward (pillaging stack for each...). Need testing though, again just brainstorming here...

Without putting much thought into it, I'm more for tanks and marines, than paratroopers. The requisite tech path is useful anyway, and I'd prefer to not tech more than we really need to.

Agreed, bolded the important part :) (In the same spirit, the winning teams of the previous game had an idea of their finish date BEFORE starting the game - through test games - this must have helped them defining the correct strat, not invading every people for instance :))

I like SE with OU + NP for this. Like Raskolnikov, I have enough trouble getting non-financial cottages to contribute with an ancient start. I like skipping Democracy if I can help it, too. State Prop / workshops also seems good. Even though we have some at the start, I'm not sure how many corporate resources we can get in good time without capturing cities. This would also maybe let us skip some sidebar techs early and make a straight run for rocketry / fission. We might not get to trade techs in this game, but if we can manage to backfill a few late, that would be nice.

Ofc I agree :)... tough what do you mean with "corporate resources"? Good part of SP is that you don't need to bother with corps.
Though my opinion might change after some test games... if the world is a big desert quickly, corps make more sense than SP (mining corp/sushi)


I'm probably forgetting something... Do any of you guys know the exact GS bulbing path through this? That would be good to know.

peace, m.

DaveMcW did a thread about that in the Strategy articles sub forum :)...

m for? (Raskolnikov is for Jean-Baptiste :crazyeye:)
Cheers

10char
 
Soirana said:
RRRaskolnikov said:
if the world is a big desert
Why you all believe we will get nuclear retaliation?

This assumes we won't outtech AI and we will be stupid enough not to nuke their uranium first.

One thing i am somewhat worried about is if map is set so that we won't have uranium on available land. For my test to much buzz about rules of capturing before nuking.

10char
 
RRRaskolnikov said:
Soirana said:
RRRaskolnikov said:
if the world is a big desert
Why you all believe we will get nuclear retaliation?

This assumes we won't outtech AI and we will be stupid enough not to nuke their uranium first.

One thing i am somewhat worried about is if map is set so that we won't have uranium on available land. For my test to much buzz about rules of capturing before nuking.

Because this doesn't ONLY depends on nukes :)...
It also depends on the number of buildings producing unhealthy faces (forges, plants...) on the map. Asa as a trigger number is reach, the Global Warming event starts. I assume this event will be more annoying here as everyone can build forges after a granary (perhaps those are even in asa we settle).
NEED - MORE - TESTING... and find the relevant thread (I believe MISOTU made some extensive testing about this, I 'll try to see if I find the thread somewhere in the hof forum)...

Totally agreed on the rules thread :lol: I had headaches...

10char
 
babybluepants said:
babybluepants said:
RRRaskolnikov said:
I am from france, can't speak for the others ... (though, I confess posting mostly at work )

Maybe I'll post once from work, then...

RRRaskolnikov said:
Ofc I agree ... tough what do you mean with "corporate resources"? Good part of SP is that you don't need to bother with corps.
Though my opinion might change after some test games... if the world is a big desert quickly, corps make more sense than SP (mining corp/sushi)

Somebody mentioned sushi/mining. I was just arguing for SP instead, by wondering how much bang we can get from corps. I also like not teching everything for sushi/mining early on... I'm totally flexible on this point, though, depending on what we learn later.

RRRaskolnikov said:
How about tribal warfare before the nukes... styke AW, keeping the AIs small and backward (pillaging stack for each...).

That's what I meant. Really needs to be tested, though. The problem is what Soirana pointed out - the ai's will beat back longbows pretty quickly, and we have a long way to go before nukes. I think it will ultimately depend on what the map setup is...

RRRaskolnikov said:
m for? (Raskolnikov is for Jean-Baptiste )

Milos.

I myself have always been more partial to Svidrigaylov... ;)

10char
 
Top Bottom