1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

SGOTM 10 - Smurkz

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jul 31, 2009.

  1. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,150
    Location:
    Boston
    Nice work, BL. How exactly did you get the nice overlays? BUFFY?

    I agree.

    I agree. But I'd then like to stop before doing anything else.

    Excellent point about the fogbusting. We should take advantage of when our cities are NOT hooked up to iron to make some cheap warriors and/or archers. (Normal speed: warriors 15 hammers, archers 25, explorers 40)
     
  2. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Messages:
    7,690
    Location:
    NY
    I'm about losing my mind with distractions right now, and I don't know when I'll be able to contribute substantively. So sorry!
     
  3. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,834
    Location:
    Death Star
    Inside Buffy, Alt - X is for overlays. Press Alt - X again to remove them. Oh and for the record I'm on the East Coast but keep a pretty twisted schedule so it appears like I'm on the west coast.
     
  4. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,390
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    [x-post with BL; his new move leads to slightly different numbers. Nothing that really changes anything, though.]

    I have been looking at settling spots in combination.

    Basically there are three options mentioned so far ,with some variants.

    The first option settles a red town 2E, a blue town somewhere near the ivory. Later, there is room for a green town up north and perhaps a (weak?) yellow town down south. There are two variants as far as I see:
    Spoiler :





    Of these two, the first one has slightly more food and a lot more unrevealed tiles. The second one has some more visible grasslands.

    The second option settles a yellow town SE-SE-S, a blue town somewhere out west, and a red town NE:
    Spoiler :





    The order of settling is not so clear in this case, though blue should probably be among the first two towns, in order to claim the land. The second choice for blue is clearly better. This option is suprisingly good because red and yellow nicely split in a production town and a commerce town. The main disadvantage is the lack of growth potential for red and yellow.

    The third option settles a yellow town SE-SE-S, a blue town SW, and later a green town 3N:
    Spoiler :



    This is the best option for blue, but at the expense of the other two, in particular green is now weak.

    My conclusions: the first and fourth option are the best. Fourth is probably strongest for midsized towns (around size 8?). First could be strongest overall. It will be nice to know what's in the fog to the west, and (less relevant) to the south.

    Our moves could be:
    Turn 0: what BL proposes.
    Turn 1: what BL proposes for longbow 1 and explorer. Longbow 2 goes 1S or 1SW, depending on what the explorer sees. At this point, I think we need to discuss the settler moves.

    Settler 1 has two alternatives: either 2N or 1S.
    Settler 2 also has two alternatives: either 2W, or SW-SE. From the forest 2W, it can settle all blue spots (except the fifth one) on the next turn, and it will see some of the fogged tiles to the W.
    The SW-SE location that BL proposes is low on food, but if our explorer / longbow spot another source, then it might be very good.
     
  5. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,390
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    To resolve the x-posting:

    I agree.

    I agree with longbow 1 and explorer. Longbow 2 can go 1SW (better position for exploration next turns), or 1S if that reveals more tiles.

    At this point, let's stop for discussion on settling, see my previous post. Skipping a bit,
    FR is definitely good. However, in all the tests I played (except yours :) ) at least some of the AI target Edu -> Lib/Econ, and will get there before us unless we try really hard. Edu and Lib can typically be traded for. I have never seen the AI target PP or Astro. So I would choose one of those and set research to 0% until we have some libs. Then either switch to Edu if we still think we can be first, or get it in trade.

    Good point! So let us use our three units for this. Meeting AI's is not really a priority, unless they are very close.
     
  6. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,834
    Location:
    Death Star
    With a civic consensus and remaining worker/settler consensus, I am moving the remaining units as outlined and switching civics. Then I will end turn, move the northern longbow and the explorer then make a judgment call on the longbow. I'll test out the line of sight for both tiles and see which is better. Are there any people that disagree?

    EDIT - x post with zyxy. I'll go ahead with the outlined moves then. Moving the longbow SW is in fact the better move and that is what I have done. Pictures in a moment.
     
  7. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,834
    Location:
    Death Star
    Nothing new revealed to sway things one way or the other. Civics are now HR/Bur/Serf/Merc.

    For Northern land:
    Spoiler :


    For Southern land:
    Spoiler :


    Comment on settling cities. I don't agree with settling the second city one tile off the coast. Seems a little counter-productive and it limits long term potential for next to little or no short-term gain. Updated test save to come shortly.

    EDIT: Test save is here. See attachment.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    13,818
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
    That may be a issue. IIRC barb cities can appear everywhere where is fogged. Edit:
    It looks so. So we need to find fast good scooping points

    I'm also reticent to settling off the coast. The map script that we are dealing creates a LOT of coast, and cities on the coast are linked first and have better trade routes. And to say the truth we don't lose much by settling on the coast compared with settling off the coast IMHO
     
  9. unkle

    unkle Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,004
    Location:
    Paris
    Too late but there was an agreement on civis, which I am also in agreement with (phew...).

    Settling-wise, I can understand why we want to be coastal, but I still really like zyxy second variant of the first kind. I could agree on blue 1N of what is shown there, but it will lower the value of green. Mmmm. Hard call. Do we need to settle next turn or the turn after ?
     
  10. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,834
    Location:
    Death Star
    Don't need to settle this turn, but the following we do. I should point out the tile west of the two floodplains is a regular plain tile, not a floodplain.
     
  11. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,390
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    I updated the numbers on the fourth option. Not much changed, the future potential of the yellow site improved a bit because of the grass in the south. It is shown here together with option 1 (unchanged):
    Spoiler :

    Option 1:


    Option 4:



    I also attempted the southern option suggested by BL:
    Spoiler :

    Option 6:


    I think it does not have enough food, so those hills just go to waste. Options 1 and 4 still look best to me. Perhaps settler W-W will help us decide...

    EDIT: of course, in option 1 the blue dot can be moved to coast. It makes sharing with green possible, and only loses a grass, desert, plains hill and two tiles we cannot see yet. It gains some coastal tiles, access to clams, crabs and one tile we cannot see yet.

    Good to know! This makes blue slightly worse than what I said before, because 1 cottage then needs to become farm. So blue gets 1 gold less.
     
  12. unkle

    unkle Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,004
    Location:
    Paris
    W-W or W-SW :)...
     
  13. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,834
    Location:
    Death Star
    This is the last "free" turn of moving our settlers around. Ideally they should be in place to settle next turn or be able to move to a tile next turn and still be able to settle. If we move anywhere other than W - W and decide that we want to settle on that tile, it's going to cost us another turn of movement if it's more than one tile away or on a hill or forest. I can get behind settling the coastal blue dot, though it'd be nice to really see what was there before we decided on that. Judging by my fog gazing it isn't exactly a stellar commerce site. City site three could get by without working all three seafood tiles since to make the blue site viable it would need to work the clams or crabs.

    This is what I've come up with as far as city placement goes. I've also gone ahead and to the best of my abilities done some fog gazing for other tiles as well and painted them in.

    Spoiler :
     
  14. unkle

    unkle Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,004
    Location:
    Paris
    Good catch on the moves BL. W->W it is, at least for me. Let's hope there is something else there making up for so many sea tiles. Probably pause after that :rolleyes:
     
  15. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,150
    Location:
    Boston
    Before we make irreversible decisions I'd like to make sure about some of our numbers. zyxy, how did you calculate excess food, hammers, and commerce? Assume that all resources are improved, but nothing else? Is the city center included? (BTW, how many commerce in CC?) In that case I don't understand how in post 71, option 4 red you get 18 hammers--I only count 11.

    Is that counting scheme the one we want to use? It seems reasonable--we'll push to develop resources first and won't have had time to do much else when we hit pop 6 in the first two cities, although I would hope we'd have some mines up by the time we're at pop 8. There are couple forests that will get chopped for workboat hammers and/or irrigating the rice+corn, but eh, close enough. Another metric that might be useful is the total hammers plus excess food available at pop 8, i.e., settler-building power. In that case I'd probably vote for zyxy's option 4 blue city (coastal forest 1W of ivory) and option 1 red city (1N of corn). Ah, which I see is BL's latest proposal. Yeah, I think I could live with that. Let's move that settler 2W! I'd also say the worker should start chopping where he is--those hammers will go to the gold city, right?
     
  16. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,834
    Location:
    Death Star
    We should test out which is faster - chopping worker one out of Gold City or building the pasture. I probably won't get around to it until much later tonight so if in the meantime someone is feeling adventurous they could see how long each scenario takes. 2 workers stacked improving tiles in Moscow will be great - it's just a question of how soon can this happen.

    I'm still not convinced on the location of city number 2. I mean, it's okay and all short term with crabs and clams along with unimproved floodplains, but if we're going cottages in the near future after start up there's just not a lot of food neutral tiles here. At some point one of those seafood is going to city number three up north (or possibly a later number city depending on what's west of us). At least with my site there's enough grassland plains to get 7 tiles or so devoted to cottages. It'll have food early on (the floodplains), production (ivory), and can easily be converted to cottage duty later. The hills can be mined or windmilled depending on the food surplus.
     
  17. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,390
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    I assumed:
    - CC is 2; 1; 1 or 2; 2; 1
    - all resources have their default improvement, and the rice and corn have fresh water.
    - all hills are mined
    - grassland and floodplains are cottaged or sometimes farmed.

    Option 4 has 3 grassland hills (each -1; 3; 0), 1 plains hill (-2; 4; 1), iron (0; 4; 0) and CC (2; 1; 1) for 18 hammers total.[/QUOTE]

    Agree. Unfortunately, I have very little time until Sunday :(. But I'll be happy to do some spreadsheets on Sunday, if that's not too late.

    I also have doubts about the blue site, but I am hoping there will be some extra food in those 8 hidden tiles. Or that green will have some extra food in its 9 hidden tiles, so that it doesn't need clams and crabs.

    Your alternative looks nice, but
    - it has only +4 fpt if you farm the FP's and use the ivories. This increases to +6 fpt if you farm the FP's but don't use the ivories. In this case, you need windmills and chops to provide some production. A windmill is (0; 1; 1) IIRC, with more after replaceable parts and after electricity. Not awful, but not great either: comparable to coast I think, and a cottage is much better.
    - it shares 2 grassland with red (2E), so don't count those twice! There is only one additional grassland tile beyond size 8 (if you work ivories).
     
  18. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,150
    Location:
    Boston
    OK, then shouldn't option 4 yellow have 15 hammers instead of 11? [Edit: Make that 13--gold mines get only 1 extra hammer, not the standard 2.] That would make it look significantly better. Since I'm still incapable of making screenshots :mad:, would it be possible for some kind soul to mark FHC on each tile so we can then play around with different settling schemes?

    Yeah, the blue site is nothing special as is--we're basically hoping there's some nice resource hidden by the trees. Option 4 would be very tempting if the yellow site has more hammers than indicated. One other thing to keep in mind is that for a given number of total hammers in the two cities, it's better to have a disparity between them because of the Bureau 50% bonus for the capital. E.g., if you 28 total hammers, it's better to have 18+10 (net 39) than 14+14 (net 37). Of course we also have to consider the commerce bonus which may be pulling in the other direction.

    [Edit: The blue site would look better working the clams--3 extra food. Since we're emphasizing what things look like around pop 8 because of the rush to build settlers, I'd say it's fair to take the clams from the red city, which would still be pretty small. And it's not unlikely that the blue site will show at least one tile more valuable than what we're assuming, right? I'm leaning ever harder toward option 4 with the blue and yellow cities to start, yellow as capital. The fallback for blue might be to settle the coastal ivory. In any case, I favor moving the settler 2W into the forest for recon.]
     
  19. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,390
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Not if you cottage over the forests. CC (1) + Grassland hill (3) + gold hills (5) + Cow (2) = 11.
    If you leave the forests, then commerce potential is lower of course.

    TBH, I am also quite impressed with the yellow site. Option 4 nicely separates commerce (yellow) from production (red).
     
  20. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,150
    Location:
    Boston
    Yeah, I'm really liking option 4, but which two cities do we found first? I think red and yellow would be best but the western settler would be 1 turn late getting back to the red site. Blue+yellow has no delay but doesn't look as good and we wouldn't have the iron in our culture for awhile (which might not be a terrible thing since we could build cheap warriors and archers as warm bodies for HR happiness and/or barb-preventing fog busting). BL's red+blue scheme would get the iron and have no settling delay, but his green site isn't that wonderful, nor does it look like there's a particularly good site farther south because of the desert and sea.

    I'd go with some combo in option 4--it looks good both long and short term. I see the choice as taking a small risk with the blue site (hoping it has good unseen tiles) or going with the known very good red site but losing a turn getting there.
     

Share This Page