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SGOTM 10 - Smurkz

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jul 31, 2009.

  1. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

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    I don't know if declaring is a good idea. But the reason to declare would of course not be to attack Ghandi's cities, but to prevent him from developing tiles. Our cities are safe right now because he does not have spare units. (But of course we would need some defenders soon.)
     
  2. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

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    Not likely about the Camp. He'd need his second city's borders to pop to make that happen, unless he has some more ivory in his capital's BFC. I think we have time here.

    Probably true, but see below

    I vote no. We have no units to garrison in St. Pete for a while and Gandhi has two longbows to both defend his city and harass us with. I'd rather not risk losing our second city this early. I'd rather open borders.

    He might, but again it's hard to say what he does. Again, I don't like the idea of declaring now until we see what Gandhi has. If we declare now, the longbow we have has to defend St. Pete. He can't pillage and watch the city at the same time. Our other longbow is ~ 7 turns away from being in position to do anything useful against him as well.

    Yea, we can get the first settler out faster, but all subsequent settlers afterward suffer due to the mass amounts of trees being chopped in one shot and the lack of other improvements around the city. Just saying...

    That makes no sense. The AI declare on you based off of your power numbers vs themselves. The lower your power is in relation to them, the more likely they'll declare, among other things (diplomacy modifiers, borders, etc...). At barb units don't appear until turn 30?!? Did you play a test game ever? I had barb cities up by turn 19 -20.

    Based off of how long a civ's culture has been present in a particular tile. Basically the longer you hold the tile, the more chance you have on keeping it in your control. The more culture your city pushes out, the more chance you have of keeping the tile afterward. The main tile threatened I'd say is the westernmost floodplain tile, so what XC is saying (and is true) that we should try to get our borders popped there first to place our culture on the tile and give the tile's control to us. Then afterward it's just a question of keeping more culture coming out of St. Pete than from Gandhi's city to prevent him from out culturing us and retaking the tile.
     
  3. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    [Xpost with BL]

    Tiles in the next-to-outermost ring get 20 (on std speed) culture points [edit] per turn added to them in addition to the city's cultural production. One ring inside that gets 40, 2 rings inside gets 60, etc. (See post 130.)

    That's why I'm worried. We'd be hosed if St Pete were our capital. We need to pop borders before Gandhi to get that extra 20 points. Since he likely settled the first turn we may be in trouble. BL, can we pop next turn if you build culture this turn? I may be overreacting, since I don't have the game in front of me to check things out.

    I second the vote for warriors over archers. They'll be safe (in our hinterland) as long as they're in place before barbs appear and we can use the saved hammers on other things.

    Yes, good choice to open borders right now. Even if Gandhi gets a camp on the ivory before the 10 turns are up he probably won't have time to finish building an elephant. Do keep an eye on when a camp is finished, though! Another reason to have open borders is we need to see if he has copper or iron. If he does we probably need to hook ours up sooner than planned--all the more reason to get out those pre-iron units fast.

    [Edit after reading BL's: Barbs didn't appear in my test games until at least the mid-teens, I think. We just need to get warriors in place before then; as long as there isn't anywhere for barbs to spawn the warriors will be safe. Of course barbs can spawn out in the western wilds. As for the danger of not having enough power to dissuade the AI from attacking us, the idea is to build warriors to "guard" places where we don't need any strength (just a warm body with eyes) so we can put more hammers into more/other stronger units that could actually be used for fighting. Also, I never had a problem with the AI in my test games (up to turn 40+), and I built very few archers.]
     
  4. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

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    Regarding popping borders in St. Pete: Best case scenario is a border pop in three turns if we built culture and used the highest hammer tiles possible.
     
  5. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Ah, you're right about Gandhi's borders already popping, zyxy--there's a hint of pink on the edge tiles indicating 5-wide. In that case we're fine, which is good, cuz spending 3 turns to build culture is too much. [Edit: We should also be able to maintain control over all the (visible) ivory tiles.]

    Forgot to mention--that's great news about the fish-rich northern site. :)
     
  6. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

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    So for now it would appear the consensus is building warriors over archers (I don't totally agree since down south could be really expansive and allow a lot of land for barbs to hatch in, not to mention the only time our cities can grow vertically is when they're building stuff that don't require food), open borders with Gandhi and start moving the northern longbow back. I can finish the turn I'm on (turn 4), but then we have a few things to take care of for turn 5 and beyond, namely the worker actions and units build in Moscow. We'll have two around Moscow and a third ready in St. Pete is 8 turns if we choose to not chop it out. The only thing I have left to do this turn is to open borders and move the longbow by St. Pete. As long as everyone is cool with the open borders with Gandhi, the longbow is pretty self-explanatory as far as where to move him.

    EDIT: Or we can get Gandhi's world map for 10 gold, but I don't think anyone would consider that since we can get almost all of his info within three turns anyway.
     
  7. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Plan good. And sure, if it turns out we need real defensive units down south, warriors won't cut it. But a warrior up north is fine.
     
  8. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

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  9. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

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    Perhaps, but why?

    But he won't. AI's leave two longbows per city for protection.

    So, it would be good to test it.

    Perhaps you should compare my scheme to yours. I don't see any suffering, in fact, settler first works a lot better, because the cities can grow working developed tiles.

    Well, then it doesn't make sense. But it is how it works. Niklas figured it out a few games back. There is no likelihood involved in the power ratio, except that AI's don't attack if it is above a certain threshold, and power rating doesn't matter if it is below. The only practical "deterrent" is relations.

    I am talking about units, not cities. Cities won't attack us. Units will, and don't spawn until turn 30.

    I think the insulting tone is uncalled for, btw.
     
  10. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    As some of you know, I'm very weak on early hostilities--little experience on worker stealing, etc. I'm intrigued by the idea of stifling Gandhi's 2nd city and would like to hear more about how things would play out.

    What about opening borders now so we can scope out his land and get a settler or two across his borders ASAP so we can squeeze him from the far side? Then, when he's forced to try to settle on our side we DoW and steal his settler. That would require more effort on military, hindering our settler production. (And of course, stealing his settler doesn't give us a settler--he converts to a worker--still useful, but not 342 hammers.) I wish we had more info on how extensive the south land is. More warriors? So many tradeoffs and unknowns... :(

    [Edit: Cultural mechanics thread. I was wrong about the extra 20 on the outermost ring. Outermost is just city culture, then 1 ring inside adds 20, 2 rings in adds 40, etc.]
     
  11. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    I don't have much to say, but it's been 2 days without anybody posting. C'mon, where is everybody?

    I'm very open to the idea of harrassing the AI early, since: (a) it's probably a good idea and (b) I'm not very good at it and would like others to teach me how it's done! :) In the absence of any advice, here's my probably timid suggestion. Open borders now so we can explore beyond Gandhi's borders. Let him settle where he wants (since we don't have enough units to prevent him from doing so, anyway.) Build 2 settlers ASAP and send them to the other side and give them some "adequate" defense plus a worker or two. Then build TBD military units (elephants? maces? or would longbows suffice?) to attack Gandhi. Hopefully we'll be able to box him in on the far side (closing borders at the appropriate time) so he has to expand toward us. When he does, sending out a settler, we attack and steal his settler, hopefully with convenient timing so we can capture one of his workers, too. Judging from test games, he'll probably send out that settler around turn 35-40. Can we be ready? And will all that preparation for hostilities slow us down too much on our own settler production and expansion? How useful would an updated test game be?
     
  12. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

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    I've been extremely busy for the past few days and likely will be for the foreseeable future, but here's what's gone on. We've already opened borders since that seemed to be the consensus at the time and we've started exploring his lands. He's also settled his second city on the plains hill I predicted. From what I can tell he has no metals at this time and it's quite possible there's no land to settle to his west or to his north. Once we figure out the worker moves for turn 5, then we can proceed with more exploring and gathering info.

    As for pillaging him back to the stone age, I think it's a good idea and we should do it. As for stealing a settler, we'd have to get lucky with units being in place at the right time and having enough to take the settler away. From what I've seen AI's usually send two escorting units to protect the settler and if he's using longbows to do it (assuming he has no metals) we'd need knights or better to have a cost effective shot at killing the units.

    If anyone would like to update the test save I've provided with the current sit-rep that would be appreciated as I'm not going to have time in the near future to do so. And can anyone else besides me see the actual save? I think it would help with out planning which is why I put it up.
     
  13. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Without looking at the save, which I hope to do later tonight or tomorrow, I would say carry on as envisioned in your spreadsheets, at least for the next few turns. We'll need those workers (your first builds) regardless. If Gandhi has no land to his west then we really push for settlers to box him in on our side. If there is land out west then we'll need to think more about what to build when, since we'll have to balance settlers vs military.

    P.S. I've updated the first page info sections a little, with latest spreadsheets and screenshots. Everyone, please let me know what else you'd like there.
     
  14. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    I'm swamped at work through the entire month and it sounds like many/most of you are in the same boat. Rather than let things drag on to a whimpering retirement or panicked all-nighters, what do you think of just letting the active player do what he thinks is best (after a reasonable period for discussion) and play the game? I vote for BL to play enough turns to be able to see how much room for expansion we and Gandhi have and then pause a day or two so we can lay out a medium-term plan. I'm also in favor of 15-turn turnsets since this is epic-speed. We won't be playing as close to optimal this way but at least we'll be playing, and I think that the difference in outcome between putting in some thought and lots of thought isn't really that large. We put in a lot of thought on the start, where it's most important. Let's just play it out now and have fun. :)
     
  15. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

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    I can agree with what XC says. We do have to get a move on at some point, and I think we all can agree that seeing how much land is available to settle is going to dictate what we do in the next 15 - 20 turns or so anyway. I'm proposing to play up to turn 9 or 10 with the plan I've outlined for now which brings us to the worker in St. Pete being completed. By this point our borders there will have popped (I think) so we'll see what we're up against culture wise, plus we'll have a good understanding on what's the the north and south of Gandhi with our exploration. Sound good?
     
  16. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

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    Works for me. Sorry all.

    Gandhi's second city will presumably pop borders at the same time ours does, all else being equal, right? We'll get our religions on the same turn.
     
  17. unkle

    unkle Chieftain

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    BL, XCal, agreed to have the game moving.

    Looks like we are all really busy (always in september i'd say) so let's do that: some plan for roughly 10 turns (no need to over do it), 24/48 hours open for discussion, then play 10 turns unless something comes up that the player is unsure on how to deal with it.
     
  18. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

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    Xc, sounds like a good idea to me.
     
  19. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    I finally looked at the save last night. We should be able to block Gandhi to his NW with a single city since the land narrows there, although we can't yet see if that's a good location resource-wise. It looks like we can see some coastline on the land to our south and if this map is like BL's test map (and it is very similar to our north) then we can probably fogbust all that land with 3 units (warriors?) The northern "green" site is indeed wonderful for a GP farm--20 extra food from the seafood plus city center.

    More recon will help a lot but my early thinking is we should settle to Gandhi's NW ASAP, and then settle near the horses so we can build knights. Unless Gandhi has metal, and it doesn't look like he does, we should be in good shape to then attack him. The trick will be in stopping any of his settlers from escaping, but I think we probably can if we ease up on the settler building for awhile and prioritize pillaging all his roads. He'll eventually be able to build a galley and sneak out that way, but we'll be way ahead by then and can pillage and harrass any new city he manages to found.
     
  20. Backwards Logic

    Backwards Logic Emperor Palpatine

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    Before I plowed ahead with playing, I ran a few tests to see how quick I can get the first settler built out of Moscow. There's one major variable here and that's whether or not Moscow gets a religion spread to it. If it does, the results can be drastically different if Moscow's borders pop one turn sooner.

    Without a religion, the best I could come up was its completion by turn 17, but there were a few drawbacks here. First, I didn't get my fourth worker out until turn 17 and besides the starting longbows and explorer I had no additional fogbusting units ready and the soonest I could have a warrior ready was by turn 20. That would be too late to stop barb cities. I think the best case for an early settler is by turn 19 without a border pop. I managed to get the settler out on this turn and our internal infrastructure was better as well. I had five workers, 2 warriors, 1 archer, and the settler all finished by this turn. For comparison's sake had Moscow popped a turn sooner I could have had the settler out by turn 17 with the same infrastructure up. As you'll see this became a moot point since Moscow did not pop.

    I've finished here on turn 9 though the workers haven't moved yet and our city builds haven't been decided yet either. We definitely want a settler asap - there's a site to Gandhi's north that has grassland iron, plains cattle, and clams. We're isolated with him as well since the land out to his southwest runs out as well. The only unknown at this point is what is to the south, but it looks to be mostly garbage tundra land. We can get Gandhi's world map for five gold, but I'm not sure how much that will reveal. Still, that's pretty cheap.

    As for our border war with Gandhi, Bombay ran a few artists right from the get-go and popped before our city did. Therefore, I think it's safe to say the tiles that overlap with him are not going to be in our borders for a long time. Even if we had built culture out of St. Pete, we still would have lost those tiles. Our religion in St. Pete is Confucianism and Bombay's in Hinduism. Nether religion has spread to any city yet. Moscow's borders will pop next turn.

    We're probably going to want a galley sooner rather than later to do some exploring for us, though not at the expense of an early settler. There's quite a bit of land that looks reachable and we might be able to get some contacts sooner.

    Picture time!
    North of Gandhi:
    Spoiler :

    Southwest of Gandhi:
    Spoiler :

    The Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm10/Smurkz_SG010_AD1330_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
     

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