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SGOTM 11 - Barley Demons

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 20, 2010.

  1. MyOtherCar

    MyOtherCar The answer is 42

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    I have the same level of experience regarding cultural and AP victories as darrelljs, but most often try to land a religion for the early culture expansion. But I see that AG early is a given.
    I also would like to settle on the plains hill. Moving that way might give us a possibility for some extra resources that forests won't give us. I think it unlikely that the new location contains metal, since that would make the game unwinnable from turn one. I can't believe the mapmaker intended that.
    BTW, I am quite sure the tile 3 east from the warrior is a GL Hill (from the grey between the trees).

    Finally I think we should start looking for that fur tile, that will probably have some advanced types of barbarian units on it, preventing early possesion of the tile. However building the GW and settling next to it would oust them from our lands.
     
  2. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    Nah, metal under the capital is not a worry. You can get rid of it by trading it away. (If nobody needs it, spy-sabotage somebody's metal until they do.) Or keep warriors available by avoiding Hunting. Or build a city somewhere with no road connection and use it to train warriors.

    That hill probably does contain a resource (or else it would be forested), and I could see it intentionally being metal as a curveball against the warrior requirement. But we can deal with that. Definitely avoid Hunting until after Bronze (and maybe Iron) so we can see how that goes.

    We just built 9 warriors without even trying over in RBTS 10, so I'm not worried about 4. :)
     
  3. regoarrarr

    regoarrarr King

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    So do we need a vote? I am with darrell - plains hill, worker/Ag
     
  4. sunrise089

    sunrise089 Not that good

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    I don't know if I voted yet, but I also favor moving.
     
  5. MyOtherCar

    MyOtherCar The answer is 42

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    The members of our team (from the maintenance thread):

    Adlain
    Compromise
    MyOtherCar
    regoarrarr
    SilentConfusion
    sunrise089
    Swiss Pauli
    T-hawk
    Timmy 827

    Glad to be part of this team! :p
     
  6. darrelljs

    darrelljs Immortal

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    Can I join?

    Darrell
     
  7. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    Certainly! After all, the game hasn't even started yet and we haven't arrived at any firm decisions.... Welcome aboard.

    I'm trying to think if there's any direction the warrior should move first which would give us any information about whether or not to move to the hill for the capital.

    My initial preference is warrior NE, then NE the next turn. With the restrictions on warring, I think we'll want to expand aggressively toward the AI, and if that's really coast to the SW, then the AI is more likely to be the other direction. (And we'll want to find them so we can snag good city sites from them.)

    Does the forestedness of our capital imply that it is poor relative to the other civs' capitals? Assuming no game designer interventions, of course.

    Regarding whether or not to move to the hill. I think the only reason not to is if we lose too much production (hills) by doing so. But I think we'll gain at least one of the hills back. And we will get another forest to chop, and another good cottage spot.
     
  8. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    Okay, the game save will soon be up. Here's what I see as our early decisions.

    "Big" Questions

    1) (As T-Hawk asked) How badly do we want to win the SGOTM11 competition?

    My personal feeling is that we should shoot for first place. In most competitions of this type, the winning team is either more clever or more lucky than the others. Sometimes both. There are some really, really good micromanagers on a lot of the other teams, but I say let's go for it.

    2) Shall we aim for UN or cultural victory?

    I don't know yet. It's easier for me to envision a cultural win, but maybe after we see a bit of the map we can conceive of a plausible way to quickly win by UN?


    "First Turnset" Questions:

    1) Who wants to run it?

    I'll do it if no one else has a burning desire. I envision it being a pretty slow affair with screenshots and discussions taking place.

    2) First techs?

    Is there anyone who thinks we shouldn't go Agriculture then Bronzeworking? And I'm going to agree with pocketbeetle on Wheel third.

    3) First build?

    Is there anyone who thinks something other than Worker first? Then another warrior?

    4) Capital location?

    Option 1, aka "If it ain't broke...": In place
    Option 2, aka "Plains hill boost": Move the settler SE and settle the plains hill on the next turn.

    The expressed preferences so far are...

    "Ain't Broke": pocketbeetle, timmy827?
    "Plains Hill": T-Hawk, regoarrarr, Compromise, darrelljs, MyOtherCar, sunrise089

    What's the worst case scenario for the plains hill? I think it's grassland metal where the warrior starts and/or metal on the plains hill. Plus the loss (in the capital) of some chop hammers due to increased distance. If grassland metal, then perhaps another city could grab it and help develop some cottages for the capital?

    Metagame guesses:

    Anyone interested in trying to guess the overall map setup? I'm going to say that we start on a continent with two other civs. The other civs are all together and can be reached by galley if a properly placed city on our continent gets enough culture expansion over the water. The "furry" barbs will be somewhere in the ocean (perhaps with machine guns?) and not reachable by galley.
     
  9. pocketbeetle

    pocketbeetle Chieftain

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    I'm pessimistic by nature and say let's aim for top 3 =)
    No complaints here!

    +1 for worker first here, then depending on which is the better micro, either warriors for scouting and to grow to size 2 or another worker - I tend to like double worker openings however.
    My main fear is there are no other hills/ only 1 other hill in the BFC of that plains hill.
    Thereby dropping us from glh and ph (7h) to (1h/4h) settled ph only or + glh. Low production capitals are painful.

    However MyOtherCar and Comp both think 3E of the warrior is a grassland hill, and it does look like there's another hill S of the plains hill, so I'm slowly coming round :)

    I like timmy's point about the ph being another tile to improve while waiting for BW.

    Sounds good. The fact the creators hadn't considered colony offshoots implies there won't be numerous islands.
    Possibly said furries (lol) will be in the ocean, on a 1 tile island hill city? Or have something advanced such as Modern Armour/Mech Inf, which we ofc won't be able to reach given the limits on obsolescence? :mischief:


    Finally: Is there a test save floating around?
    If not, I'll try fumbling around with the worldbuilder, but I don't pretend to have any experience there whatsoever.
    Would like to take a look at the micro of 2 workers vs 1 worker.
     
  10. timmy827

    timmy827 King

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    I would add to the worst case scenario of moving that we potentially have fewer hills. Since it seems like I am outvoted, I will request again that we post after the first turn of moving the settler to the plains hill and see what's there.

    How hard we try - agree that if we are going to do this, we should do it right; there's enough brainpower and experience to give us a shot at medaling. I'm happy to spend some time drawing up detailed plans and such. The typical time allotted for these is pretty generous right, more so that 48 hours per 10/15 turns?.
     
  11. SilentConfusion

    SilentConfusion Emperor

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    I want to win, and show those other teams the power of the Barley Demons. I will give a lot of effort to this as I do with whatever I undertake.

    I would lean towards a cultural victory option as being our better bet.

    I don't care. I available to play early, and I could do it, but the desire is not burning, so go right ahead.

    Ag>BW seems obvious to me. Wheel makes sense, probably followed by pottery and myst for REXing.

    I don't think anyone will disagree with Worker first. I'd say we'd probably want to go warrior after that and then chop another worker and a settler. We could go 2 warriors, but I don't think it's needed for barbs at this level.

    I'd say move to plains hill for earlier worker and more riverside tiles. The metal location does not concern me, though the possible lack of production does worry me a little. I think however we will just as likely gain production, although we move farther from some trees to chop.

    I'd say not many islands, although continents is possible. In that case I like the idea of a third smaller barb continent. The problem with a continents map is that it is quite possible for an AI to get wiped out before you meet everyone. This is an auto-loss. They pointed out the value of exploration, so maybe it is possible to explore everyone pre-Optics. I'm actually guessing a Pangaea type map rather than continents or at least continents that are reachable by galley.
     
  12. SilentConfusion

    SilentConfusion Emperor

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    Wasn't sure if pocketbeetle was already working on a test start in WB, but I built one real quick. We can modify it as we go.

    But have at it.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. MyOtherCar

    MyOtherCar The answer is 42

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    Go for first place: let's try to play this to the best of our abilities.

    I prefer going for cultural, since I don't have much experience with that. A diplo win though would also suit me.


    "First Turnset" Questions:

    Be my guest :)

    I agree, unless we discover some other resource we need tech for first.

    Worker first, don't know about a double worker opening.

    4) Capital location?

    Option 1, aka "If it ain't broke...": In place
    Option 2, aka "Plains hill boost": Move the settler SE and settle the plains hill on the next turn.

    The expressed preferences so far are...

    "Ain't Broke": pocketbeetle, timmy827?
    "Plains Hill": T-Hawk, regoarrarr, Compromise, darrelljs, MyOtherCar, sunrise089

    What's the worst case scenario for the plains hill? I think it's grassland metal where the warrior starts and/or metal on the plains hill. Plus the loss (in the capital) of some chop hammers due to increased distance. If grassland metal, then perhaps another city could grab it and help develop some cottages for the capital?

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, the island fur sounds plausible, let's hope it won't have modern armor. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Adlain

    Adlain Chieftain

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    Always aim to win IMHO, afterall nothing is more irritating that losing by a small margin IF you didnt give your all

    Cultural should be easyer to control so we dont goof any warrior placments etc.


    Agreed

    I Normaly go warrior then worker, Depends on what techs i have available for the worker to do, will use that WB Map and run afew sims and get back to this Q

    Hill good, just worried about that Copper


    Just to be sure, can i use that WB File you posted??

    EDIT - Made post easyer to read
     
  15. sunrise089

    sunrise089 Not that good

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    I think these two are interrelated. We've established that Cultural Victory is the better expected value play, but UN Victory is higher variance. So what's the standard deviation of the UN Victory date/possibility? Considering the number of other teams, if we're playing only for first place the higher risk/reward victory option may be a good idea.
     
  16. pocketbeetle

    pocketbeetle Chieftain

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    +1 cookie for being smart :)

    Thanks SC!
    Will try and fiddle later tonight.
     
  17. regoarrarr

    regoarrarr King

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    One (meta) strategy that I've seen other teams use before that I think is very useful is the creation by the turnplayer of a pre-play plan (PPP)

    Basically say what you're going to do, with micro details if necessary. Techs to research - builds to make, military moves to do

    And one of the crucial parts I think is "stopping conditions". Think beforehand of what might make you stop play. Unexpected DoW, wonder that we were chasing gets BIADL, etc.

    So the idea is you post this, allow for team comments for a day or so, revise if necessary, and play

    Just a thought...

    So I think Turn 1(a) PPP would look something like this:

    Move Warrior <somewhere>
    Move settler to plains hill
    Stop and post screenshot for further team discussion
     
  18. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Emperor

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    DS posted an important scoring clarification. To summarize, win date is the tie-breaker...

     
  19. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    That's exactly what I'm getting at. If we want to turn in a solid showing, culture is the way to go. If we want to gamble for the win, then the UN victory can be done a tick faster (going by HOF reported victory dates and my intuition), but can fizzle.

    We don't need to decide this right away. We'll probably want to decide around the time of founding city #3 whether we need three legendary cities.
     
  20. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    Just so there's no confusion, I'll run the first turnset.

    One other point about finish dates. Since we need to reserve some great people for Eldine's arrival, the "best" culture dates--which presumably were Artist-aided--will be pushed back a bit more.

    I do like the idea of a pre-turn plan. Here's my intention for the first turnset:

    0) Download the save and fog-gaze as best I can. Especially looking for evidence of hills to mine if we move to the plains hill.

    Actual turn:
    1) Move the settler SE to the plains hill. Fog-gazing probably won't reveal a reason not to do this. Also, I can't think of anything the warrior could find that would keep us from moving to the hill.

    2) Post a new screenshot of what the settler reveals. (I could even post an intra-turn save if it seems appropriate.)

    3) Move the warrior. Unless counterindicated by the findings above, I plan to move him NE.

    4) End first turn.

    Second turn (and thenceforth):

    1) Move the warrior again / Settle the hill. If there's any doubt about settling, I'll move the warrior first. If there isn't, I'll settle first then move the warrior.

    2) Agriculture and Worker

    3) Scout with the warrior. Trying to find nearby AIs and good city sites.


    Note: I won't be playing this for several hours at least, but if I get any chance, I'm going to download and open the save to look around. Others may want to do this too, if only to check mod installs.
     

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