SGOTM 11 - Barley Demons

[Compromise]

I've downloaded the starting save. Installing the BUFFY mod was painless.

Here are two screenshots I took. Both are of the fogged area east and southeast of the starting units. I think there may be hills 2N1E, 1N1E and 1S1E of the plains hill. That would imply that the plains hill actually has *more* production potential than the initial start.

More experienced fog-gazers please confirm!

If confirmed, I expect my first move will be settler 1SE to the plains hill. Then re-evaluate.

East gaze:

Spoiler :

Southeast gaze:

Spoiler :

 

[Compromise]

So I moved the settler, then saved the game. I'll play the rest of the initial turnset tomorrow. For tonight, I leave you with this screenshot:

Spoiler :

Early silver with plenty of food to run it!

And we look to be in the south, so I plan to scout northish.

 

[timmy827]

Vote for settling starting spot humbly retracted

 

[Adlain]

i hope its ok, but i modified the WB Save with the new Infomation that i can see

 

[SilentConfusion]

We pick up some tundra and I think some ice. But we do get a silver, and I think I like the position better.

 

[MyOtherCar]

Ah, silver! Definitely settle on the hill. We'll have good starting commerce, +1 happy, 2 gl hills, one silver plains hill, and I believe 2 tundra hills SE en S2E.

Here's my fog-gazing effort:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[pocketbeetle]

Good job guys, roll on

Edit:
Had a play around with the save going Double worker and then Worker/Warrior/Worker first.

Settler on t45 for both, but does seem Worker/Warrior/Worker is preferable.

Details:
2 Worker:

• t19 Worker ->Worker
• t33 2nd Worker -> Warrior
• t36 BW -> Wheel
• t39 Delhi Size 2
• t40 Warrior -> Settler. 2 chops into settler instantly
• t43 3rd chop into Settler
• t45 Settler produced, Wheel (3), Delhi grows size 3 on t48.

Worker/(Warrior)/Worker:

• t19 Worker -> Warrior
• t28 Delhi Size 2, switch to Worker production with Warrior(2 turns left) in queue
• t36 BW -> Wheel
• t38 2nd Worker -> Warrior (micro to work 1f/2h tile for 1t)
• t39 Warrior -> Settler. 1 chop into settler instantly
• t41 2nd chop into settler
• t44 3rd chop into settler
• t45 Settler produced, Wheel (2), Delhi grows size 3 on t48

Conclusion:
Worker/Warrior/Worker turn ahead on research, most of 3rd chop overflows into next build, little bit behind on worker actions such as some prechopping into forest near Silver and also Silver is nearly mined already going 2 workers first.

I also tried some wierd and wonderful ways such as going BW -> Agri -> Wheel with double worker first. ie get maximum chopping early.

• t19 Worker -> Worker
• t24 BW -> Agri
• t25 Silver mine finished and being worked by 1 pop Delhi
• t30 Chop #1 into worker
• t31 2nd Worker -> Settler
• t33 Agri -> Wheel, chop #2 into settler
• t35 Chop #3 into settler
• t38 Chop #4 into settler
• t40 Settler produced, Delhi still size 1 -> Warrior
• t42 Wheel -> (Tech #4). 1st farm improvement finished.
• t47 Delhi size 2, Warrior produced, 2nd farm finished.
  Delhi will grow to size 3 in 4 turns ie t51.

It's an interesting method. If we're aiming for 'fastest 2nd city first' then this gets a settler out a full 5 turns or so earlier, and working the silver means we're ahead on tech also. But Delhi takes 3 turns longer to reach size 3, and we're down an extra forest.

Something to note: Test save had copper spawning on the plains hill. ie if actual game doesn't have copper there, some scenarios will be a little slower, particularly this last one.



Comp - are you intending to try a quick run through before playing, just to get it fixed into your head what you're doing?
If anyone can improve on the above, please say. I'd be interested.

 

[Compromise]

I was actually planning to play this morning.... Then got caught up with a dishwasher problem. Then the wife took the computer. (Attempts to resuscitate an old desktop were frustratingly unsuccessful.)

Now I'm ready to play on. I'm going to read the above posts, then play a bit.

Unless someone screams loudly and quickly, I plan to settle on the plains hill here and move the warrior northwards. Worker first. Agriculture then BronzeWorking.

I plan to stop after the worker completes to discuss where to send him. I'm thinking north corn, middle corn, silver in that order. Second build warrior? Third build worker? Third tech Wheel?

 

[timmy827]

Sounds good, except for third tech. I don't have a suggestion ATM but I'm sure the land we uncover will suggest something there. (and we'll pause before then anyways, so no biggie).

 

[Compromise]

Okay, playing now.

Looking through pocketbeetle's simulations, I'm tempted to suggest warrior, then settler after the initial warrior [edit]growing to size 2[/edit]. I won't get there with this turnset though.

Edit question: How do I do the line-through-the-letters font to cross out what I miswrote?

 

[Compromise]

First Turnset complete.

Turn 1: Couldn't think of a better city name, so kept Delhi. Sent Warrior northeast

Turn 3: Met a scout of Zara's to the east! (This seems close.)

Spoiler :

So...we're not along down here near the tundra.

Turn 4: Met another of Zara's scouts up north. Both seem to be heading west at high speed. (I left tracking signs on the map. Feel free to delete them, along with any of the other signs I put up.)

Turn 8: Spot Zara's borders (already popped because he's Creative) not far away to the northeast.

Turn 10: First sighting of a lion.

Turn 11: Move onto a nonforested mountain...and right next to a lion!

Turn 12: Survive the lion attack with no loss in hit points (whew!)

Turn 13: The founding of Buddhism somewhere off in the fog.... And I step in front of another lion. This time, I'm across the river and in the forest though.

Turn 14: Survive the lion attack again. Promote self to Woodsman I. Continue exploring since I'm near Zara's zone of influence.

Turn 15: Hinduism falls in a distant land! (Guess I was wrong and we wouldn't have founded it.) Also Agriculture is in, so I start Bronzeworking.

Turn 19: I move the warrior to the far eastern end of our continent.

Maps of our lands:

Capital region:

Spoiler :

Northern region:

Spoiler :

Eastern (Zara Yaqob's) region:

Spoiler :

The world as we know it so far...

Spoiler :

Edit: Our espionage ratio with Zara is--and so far always has been--4(x+1)/4x where x is the number of turns we've known him. This implies that he doesn't know any other civiliations.

Notes to next turn player:

1) We appear to be somewhat lonely. Turn 19 and we've only met Zara (who favors Theocracy fwiw). I tracked his scouts--see the notes on the map--and if they turned back to the east after hitting the western coast, then our continent extends about 6 tiles to the west of our field of view.

2) Not going for a starting religion was the right course. I don't think we could've landed either, even if we wanted to. Also, there are at least two other civs out there who started with Mysticism.

3) I haven't let the warrior heal yet. He's at 1.6/2.0 health with a Woodsman I promotion. He seemed safe in Zara's neighborhood and I wanted to see what could be seen. Not sure if he should heal or not before scouting his way back along the southern coast.

4) I haven't moved the worker yet. I suggest we think about early plans here, and maybe run some scenarios. My first plan would be to farm the north corn, then farm the middle corn, then mine the silver. Quickest settler is probably warrior to size 2, then whip him to completion.

I'm sure I'll have more to say after thinking about it for a bit, but I wanted to get this up since I had to delay playing for so long.

Next turn's save is available on the SGOTM download page.

 

[pocketbeetle]

I plan to stop after the worker completes to discuss where to send him.

Nice choice of place to stop, and good job on sticking to the defensive terrain
I wouldn't have thought of using Zara's scouts to guess the Western border.

I'm thinking north corn, middle corn, silver in that order. Second build warrior? Third build worker? Third tech Wheel?

Nonono.
If we're going to try and grow Delhi to size 2 asap, then go middle corn, as you can reach it and start farming in one turn, which we can't do with the north corn.

Turn 3: Met a scout of Zara's to the east! (This seems close.)

Hocrap.
I played a bit further on in that testsave provided, up til around Music/CoL, whereupon I got bored.
Was cleaning up on the tech, wonders and religions (Jud/Tao/Christ), but Ethiopa was the top AI on around 9 cities to my 5, and had even stolen a nice city location by expanding via galley onto my continent.

Creative/Organised Zara really has no respect for maintenance costs, so we need to expand fast, and maybe not even open borders if the West proves larger than expected.

4) I haven't moved the worker yet. I suggest we think about early plans here, and maybe run some scenarios. My first plan would be to farm the north corn, then farm the middle corn, then mine the silver. Quickest settler is probably warrior to size 2, then whip him to completion.

Middle corn as mentioned above.

And I'm not keen on whipping a settler. We'd be whipping the city from size 2 to size 1, which is the slowest growing stage early on (ie +6 food modifier vs +12 food from the 2 corn)

+1 vote here for growing to size 2, getting a 2nd worker out, then chopping for Greenpeace 'Deforester of the year' award.
Enough posting from me for now though

PS: Strikeout is achieved using S and /S

 

[Adlain]

Updated Test with new Map info, dont know how to move the time forward, so while the map is accurate to what we know atm, you need to re-move your warriors to get to where we are turn wise.

 

[Compromise]

Updated Test with new Map info, dont know how to move the time forward, so while the map is accurate to what we know atm, you need to re-move your warriors to get to where we are turn wise.

Wow Adlain, how on earth did you do this so quickly? I've tried to do this kind of thing long ago using worldbuilder, but it took me forever! Are you using Worldbuilder? Also, I'm curious if it's possible to change the other AIs here, so that they can be updated as needed. I'm impressed.

I ran through this test file. There were some slight changes in where I ran into Zara's scout. And Buddhism didn't get founded in this save like it did in the actual game. Let me know how I can help to make this test case as realistic as possible. Should we guess AI leaders and have you include them?


Regarding the actual game, it's not clear to me whether culture or diplo will be faster. Need to think about it more. I did find this thread about diplomatic victories from isolated starts that might be of interest to us. We might be able to implement something similar even with our DoW restrictions.

 

[MyOtherCar]

Good turnset Compromise, especially the trick of keeping track o Zara's scouts.

If we get a second settler out quick, we might be able to box in Zara by planting a city west of the cows to the north. I suggest building a warrior for the new city site, while growing the capital, and then build a settler asap.

I suspect Zara to tech quickly, thanks to all the floodplains he has at his capital.

Oh, and how about putting up a roster?

 

[sunrise089]

I also tried some wierd and wonderful ways such as going BW -> Agri -> Wheel with double worker first. ie get maximum chopping early.

Yeah!

I'll read more and try to get a real comment in, but I just had to share love for the above.

 

[SilentConfusion]

Updated Test with new Map info, dont know how to move the time forward, so while the map is accurate to what we know atm, you need to re-move your warriors to get to where we are turn wise.

I was working on one of these, but I'm happy to see this up so quickly. It looks very good. One thing we can do is play with the visibility of tiles in WB and we can just move the warrior to where he goes. As for religions being founded we can world builder a religion into the game on the exact turn it was founded in the real game. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be pretty good. As for time, we can just hit end turn (except when we "found" a religion for our opponents) until the current date then put units where they go and do a save. I will do this tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it. I'll just use your save since it looks great.

 

[Adlain]

Wow Adlain, how on earth did you do this so quickly? I've tried to do this kind of thing long ago using worldbuilder, but it took me forever! Are you using Worldbuilder? Also, I'm curious if it's possible to change the other AIs here, so that they can be updated as needed. I'm impressed.

I ran through this test file. There were some slight changes in where I ran into Zara's scout. And Buddhism didn't get founded in this save like it did in the actual game. Let me know how I can help to make this test case as realistic as possible. Should we guess AI leaders and have you include them?


Regarding the actual game, it's not clear to me whether culture or diplo will be faster. Need to think about it more. I did find this thread about diplomatic victories from isolated starts that might be of interest to us. We might be able to implement something similar even with our DoW restrictions.

Thnks, its actualy the first time i have ever used WB, i have to find out how to open it and evrything, so i really lurning as im going along - hence the unable to move time forward, however i think i have thought of a way and will get back to you on that. I used Silent confusions Base WB File on the other page as a base and worked off that. he had added afew AI in aswell already, although i dont know how to edit them into different ones when needed, i suppose it will need a rebuild when we discover the actual ones.

I was working on one of these, but I'm happy to see this up so quickly. It looks very good. One thing we can do is play with the visibility of tiles in WB and we can just move the warrior to where he goes. As for religions being founded we can world builder a religion into the game on the exact turn it was founded in the real game. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be pretty good. As for time, we can just hit end turn (except when we "found" a religion for our opponents) until the current date then put units where they go and do a save. I will do this tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it. I'll just use your save since it looks great.

thx - glad ppl like it, its your base file, so you should take alot of the credit. EDIT: and you have mentioned how i was thinking of moving the time.

 

[Adlain]

Ok, i have got a WB Save at 3525BC (Begining of Turn 19) ready for use, i have added a tundra that i missed, south of the Ice accross the water, added the warriors promotion (although i dont know how to edit health) and put him in the right place.

i found 2 likley candidates for budisam and hindu and founded them on the apropriate turns in Far away lands and got Etheopia city founded and to size 2 as seen in screenie.

 

[SilentConfusion]

Ok, i have got a WB Save at 3525BC (Begining of Turn 19) ready for use, i have added a tundra that i missed, south of the Ice accross the water, added the warriors promotion (although i dont know how to edit health) and put him in the right place.

i found 2 likley candidates for budisam and hindu and founded them on the apropriate turns in Far away lands and got Etheopia city founded and to size 2 as seen in screenie.

Awesome job.