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SGOTM 11 - Barley Demons

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 20, 2010.

  1. MyOtherCar

    MyOtherCar The answer is 42

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    So the only furs in the world are on an island NW of Zara's capital? Then we definitely should send our first settler to the desert coast and settle a city there that builds culture buildings so we can reach it with galleys before optics!
    :p

    But seriously, SilentConfusion (what an apt name considering your above post :) ) Even if you are paranoid, that is no excuse to not make your banner more aesthetically pleasing. I therefore propose this:
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxBarleyxxDemonsxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxBarleyxxDemonsxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxBarleyxxDemonsxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxBarleyxxDemonsxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxBarleyxxDemonsxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx​
     
  2. timmy827

    timmy827 King

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    Wow, lots of discussion which is a great sign.

    Despite being up, this is a crazy day (or was I guess, after midnight in my time zone) so I'll have to weigh in for real tomorrow. One thing that caught my eye was Compromise saying "how do we get Astro?"

    So, the two classic ways are Liberalism swing (duh) and bulb or double-bulb (need to avoid Theology and CS, as Paper and then Education are ahead of Astro in the GS order).

    However, with the comments in the game info thread about the "fierce barbarians" guarding the only fur, I'm think that the catch of this game is the need to tech to rifles or something else high up to conquer advanced barbs. Thus, perhaps bending things to an early Astro beeline isn't in our best interests. Of course, if the barbs aren't a big deal, getting to Astro early is huge, settling that island ourselves rather than fighting an AI later saves us a lot of trouble.
     
  3. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!

    I just wanted to comment quickly on the whipping question. We really want to work improved tiles, and it'd be nice to always be working the 2 corns and the silver.

    Without a granary, the biggest benefit to whipping is that we get our production item (usually a settler since we can 3-pop whip it) sooner.

    With a granary, our corns basically become 9(F+H) tiles instead of the current 6(F+H) tiles.

    Long-term thought: Unless we want to gamble on a cultural victory, I think we have to go for Astro ASAP. Otherwise, we're flying blind.

    Another busy day here...
     
  4. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    I'm playing around with Adlain's save a bit. I even gave myself a wolf at the outset to reset the random number seed.

    Now I'm really starting to like the early second worker. As long as we get silver hooked up quickly and stay at size 3 or better just about all the time, we can get Wheel and Pottery quickly enough to get roads and granaries up in our new cities nice and fast.

    Also, I was poking around some threads here at CFC with "diplomatic" in the title and found this post in a discussion about the merits of building a settler just for the diplomatic effect of building a city to give to the AI. Hmmmmm.
     
  5. timmy827

    timmy827 King

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    OK, so a lot of the discussion goes past the length of my turnset. Thanks to Compromise who has ID'd the important parts:

    So, due to contraints on my own time right now I am only going to discuss these for my planned turns, with goal of running my set tomorrow or Friday based on team agreement. My answers to above:
    1) sure, makes sense
    2) definitely. The opposite order would eventually save a turn going from the 2nd farm to silver mine, but cost a turn up front and thus is a clear loser.
    3-4)fine
    5) see 9)
    6)thanks. Constant vigilance!

    7) I am in favor of finishing the warrior. It will take 9t to grow (food goes 3-3-3-3-3-3-3-6-6=33 exactly) so warrior will be at 18/22. We then have option to grow two more turns, or work either a plains forest or the silver for one turn before starting 2nd worker. My preference is silver, don't think that 1 food is going to do much for us, but open to suggestions here.

    8-9) I think I want our warrior to heal to full first before moving - the info he's going to reveal won't change anything we do in the immediate future and I don't want unnecessary risks. If we want a seafood investigate north, it makes more sense to use our current warrior - with this plan he'll be further north, and the new one out of Delhi is better for going west. But I am not sure this is the best immediate use. However I don't think the silver ice region is important to expose right now - we can't settle a city that could work both, a city on one of the silvers would be very slow to get started even if there's seafood in the fog (no forests to chop). I highly doubt this will be an early destination for an Indian settler.

    8 and 9 are probably the most important questions for discussion.
     
  6. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    Comments on next turnset
    2c vs 1F. I have no preference. Biggest thing is to remember to go back to the city governor or the corn when starting the second worker.

    Agree on not exposing silver ice. I'd rather either explore the north coast or fogbust the river between Zara and us.

    Should be a pretty quick turnset.

    Some more longer-term thoughts
    A couple of things to note from a quick practice game I ran. If we build a city near Zara's borders and gift it to him, we get a +1 relations for "liberating our cities". If we build a city on the southern ice-silver and gift it to him after he founds a city 2S of his cow (I didn't try to give it to him before he had expanded borders in his second city), we get a +4 in relations. I don't think the +1 is worth it, but the +4 might be. A tech gift might be less costly to us though.

    He won't accept cities to our west, at least early in the game, for the found-gift-autobarbraze trick.

    A single +1 in relations, from "years of peace", gets Zara to Pleased--a "90% no-DoW" threat.

    It takes +8 in relations to get Zara to "Friendly" and remove him as a DoW threat.

    Note that since "years of peace" gets Zara to Pleased, I don't think we'll be able to get any bonuses for capitulating to his demands. On the other hand, maybe some combination of "years of peace", "open borders" and "years of resources" if we gift him a corn will get him to +4. Then an ice-silver city or a juicy tech could get him to +8. Religion, of course, could change this.

    The espionage ratio does look like a good indicator as to whether or not he meets anyone else. Adlain's save makes contact with another AI possible, and on the turn Zara meets Pacal, his ratio drops from (x+4)/x to (x+2)/x with us.
     
  7. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    Another long term comment:

    Proposed Tech Path:

    Initial: Agriculture, Bronzeworking, The Wheel, Pottery, Writing
    (Oracle: Polytheism, Priesthood, < Oracle: Code of Laws? or Monarchy? or Metalcasting? >)
    Trade hopes: Monarchy, [Fishing], [Mathematics], [Alphabet], [Ironworking], [Sailing]
    Expansion: Monarchy, < If no Oracle/CoL, then CS prereqs >, Civil Service,
    Over the Water: Metalcasting, Machinery, Compass, < Bulb: Optics >, < Bulb x 2: Astronomy >
    Empire consolidation: Paper, Printing Press
    Push to the UN: < Bulb x ?: Scientific Method >, Physics, Electricity, Radio, Mass Media

    Legend:
    Completed
    [Trade]
    (Optional)
     
  8. timmy827

    timmy827 King

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    OK, still holding open for comments; will play ~8AM PST tomorrow.
     
  9. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    I'm good with that.
     
  10. pocketbeetle

    pocketbeetle Chieftain

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    Sigh, oh alright then I'll join in! :lol:

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    Good stuff in this thread, where to start...

    Didn't know about this, thankyou!
    Always thought they were turn number dependant.

    I think the important thing is to try and be restrained early on, and just do a couple of 1 pop whips, at least until we get a granary in there.
    2 pop whips are a no-no in my opinion, because although they're more efficient regarding anger management, it's a long time to wait for Delhi to grow to size (5?), during which we're building neither settlers nor workers. We also have a good happy cap (7) thanks to the silver.

    With the 3 strong tiles tiles we have, the optimum early game whipping strategy is to grow to size 3 (working 2xcorn + silver tile), wait til the food box is 1 turn from filling, then 1 pop whip something, preferably a building or axeman, so that Delhi immediately regrows to size 3.
    That's the ideal situation.

    Growing to size 4 or 5 and working the glh mines (1f 3h 1c) is also possible, but bear in mind it takes a long time to improve the forested gl hills, as they cost a worker 1 turn to move onto it, 5 turns to chop, (and then 6 turns to mine).
    Wasting multiple worker turns to move 2 or more workers up there is bad micro.
    Leave the tundra hills til last, the improvement time penalty hurts.

    I think we'll have to revisit this later.
    Mass media is pretty deep into the tech tree, combined with Epic speed costs, I think trying to tech it with only a small number of cities will be too painful.
    Not sure.

    Sounds good.
    Anyone still wanting cultural victory?
    Speak up if so!

    Hindu first is unusual. Can't think of any others here.

    Astronomy
    You guys seem to be getting all excited about it :)
    It's an optional prereq for Sci Method, and a prereq for Physics, both of which are down the Mass Media beeline, so we're always going to get it early.

    Don't forget we only need caravels via Optics to get mapping the ocean.
     
  11. pocketbeetle

    pocketbeetle Chieftain

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    Double post!
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    Meh, not keen on finishing warrior, but I do agree.
    And yeah, silver could be better, esp if it speeds up Wheel by a turn (?).

    Agree snow silver is low priority.
    Agree healing doesn't hurt. I always find animals are a bigger risk than barb warriors, so any delay is good.

    For warrior exploration: can I recommend returning N to the coast and going in a NW spiral?
    SW is our lowest priority region as we suspect we're isolated and it's directly away from ZY.

    Recommend keeping 2nd built warrior around.If we're going to rapidly lay out 2 new cities, having warriors around to guard them is always a good thing *shrug*

    Was thinking that. Maybe timmy should keep hold of it?
    Maybe just post after BW to let us know if our testsave guess of copper underneath Delhi was the correct guess?

    Love this stuff, would never have considered a city gift.
    Couple of points in no particular order:
    • Settlers early are expensive, so hopefully we don't have to rush to do this?
    • Tech gifting to AIs can give you up to +4 modifier however it's temporary and fades (to +3, +2 etc). There's also another tech gifting modifier bonus called 'You shared your technological discoveries with us'. This one I think goes up to +2, and is permanent.
    • Following the above point - is city gifting a temporary bonus? I know colony liberation isn't, but giving a random city might be...
      If so we need to try and time it for just before a UN vote.
    • Capitulating to AI demands almost always gives some sort of modifier. And refusing sure as hell does.

    Last but not least: We should at some point get a wboat out/stick a warrior on a forested hill near the coast to try and catch any exploring AIs.

    Suggested worker micro for upcoming turns:

    (Sorry I'm typing this from memory quickly, SC or anyone feel free to modify/clean/improve)
    Worker 1 farms middle corn
    Worker 1 farms north corn
    Worker 1 moves SE, chops forest (5turns)
    In meantime, Worker 2 produced.
    Worker 2 moves S from Delhi, chops forest (5 turns)
    Worker 1 moves SW, prechops plains forest. (4 turns)
    Worker 2 moves SW onto silver, starts mining.
    Worker 1 moves SW puts 1 chop into gl forest
    Settler produced around this time, Delhi starts building 3rd warrior while growing to size 3
    Worker 1 moves SE onto silver, mines silver also.
    Silver mining finishes roughly 1 turn before Delhi grows to size 3
    Worker 2 remains on Silver, roads it. (Road connects silver to river, hence connecting to Delhi, and also aggressive Bombay city, no need to road any other tiles south of Delhi early on)
    Worker 1 moves NW, puts 1 chop into gl forest
    Worker 1 then either moves NE and finishes chop of plains forest, or moves onto glh forest NE of Delhi to potentially chop that.
    Worker 2 after roading moves NW to finish chopping of gl forest.
    Note at this point you start wanting 3 workers - 2 around Delhi and 1 around the newly settled city.
    Suggest building a worker v soon after 1st settler/growing to size 3
     
  12. timmy827

    timmy827 King

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    Played until BW. Eastern warrior (Archibald) was wolfed, survived but slowed him down getting north. Robert was forced north by animals (managed to avoid a fight). Here's what we now know (nothing of interest revealed between Delhi and Aksum):

    Spoiler :


    Worker should move 1S, chop the forest for a turn, then go to mine silver IIRC? 2nd one chops into another worker ? settler ?

    Zara still 4EP ahead of us, seems 98% likely that there is no other AI on this landmass.
    I'm not yet willing to write off culture but it's not decision time yet.

    Save
     
  13. SilentConfusion

    SilentConfusion Emperor

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    Here's how I see it up to BW:
    Worker 1:
    -t=19: SW>NW>farm
    -t=26: farm is finished
    -t=27: N>NE
    -t=28: farm
    -t=35: farm is finished

    The whole time the corns have been worked except for 1 turn right after the growth to 2 pop. For that turn the unimproved silver was worked.

    A warrior was built on t=29 and a worker was started, BW comes in on t=36 and on t=36 we have 4/36 food and 66/90 hammers into a second worker, which will finish naturally before a chop could be finished on t=38 if we keep working the corn.

    After BW:
    Worker 1
    -t=36: SW (or S)>chop
    -t=37: S>SE>S (or SW>SE>S)
    -t=38: mine
    -t=41: mine finished

    Worker 2
    -t=38: S>chop
    -t=39: SW>mine
    -t=41: NE>chop ?

    On t=42 we grow to size three, only one turn after getting our 3rd special tile improved (so pretty good timing wise). Our workers can chop or farm after this (a farm could go 1N of silver, otherwise put chops into a settler).

    Note: I don't think we'll have The Wheel tech by the time we finish the mine so we can't road it right away, and I also believe that it doesn't need a road to be connected to the river. I think it will be connected to capitol as soon as it is finished. I could be wrong about this, but on the test save I'm pretty sure it was hooked up right away.

    EDIT: cross-posted with timmy. I knew we had metal in one of those two spots. It should be t=51 when our borders pop the second time encompassing the copper (100/2 + 1).
     
  14. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    Edit: Crossposted with SC, so this post doesn't take into account the previous post's comments.

    Glanced at the save. Looks like a good turnset. Can't see any reason not to continue to prefer the tile west of the "bend in the river" for Bombay. Also the plains hill that grab wheat/cow/oasis for third city.

    Stone?! Wow. I'm so used to wonder-resources being taken out of the mix. Robert the warrior seems to be sitting on a decent stone-grab city.

    My first thought is that the priority is getting Delhi to size three and working silver rather than a super-fast settler. Can worker 1 move: S-chop, S-chop, SE-chop, SW-mine while the second worker moves S-chop, SW-mine and get the mine done as we grow to size 3?

    I don't mind short turnsets at first to get everyone involved in the game. Maybe we could plan for SilentConfusion to run the next one on Sunday or Monday? I think we can test-plan some fairly precise worker action plans by then. Not sure of a natural stop point. Suggest The Wheel then Pottery for techs. Any other techs seem more desirable?

    Will look more at the save and have more comments later.
     
  15. Adlain

    Adlain Chieftain

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    Ok, using what i can see i have updated the WB Files to the bronze working period. i think i have correctly put archibold and Robert into position, i have naturaly aged the Test save to this and followed the worker macro left behind by Silent Confusion - if this was wrong please let me know and i will try to adjust it as nessercery.


    P.S. BTW, as i am not a turn player, i am not touching the acutal GOTM save so if posable, if we could have some screenies with the resource`s visable and posably the city screens later on aswell it would help me not miss/ mess up some tiles :)
     
  16. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    Screenshots, especially for Adlain.

    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :


    Thank you so much for the Worldbuilder work. I know it isn't quick.
     
  17. regoarrarr

    regoarrarr King

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    Depending on when we need to work the silver, the way to not waste turns would be
    1s,chop,cancel
    1s,chop,cancel,
    1se,chop,cancel
    1sw,mine

    Just chopping 1S and then mining the silver wastes 1 worker turn, if that matters.
     
  18. Adlain

    Adlain Chieftain

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    Editied above post with new File. removed some errand forrset, added a grassland hill near Delhi`s borders, adjusted Etheopia`s city to 3 population and fixed some visability errors.

    thx for the screenies :)
     
  19. SilentConfusion

    SilentConfusion Emperor

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    I have a question regarding the save. So anyone can open the save and look at it. Can only one person open it at a time so as to avoid double playing a turn? I've never done a SGOTM before so, just wondering.

    Since the mine is completed on t=41 with one of those workers still having a turn, we have some free worker turns to chop before going to the mine. Thanks for pointing that out Compromise.

    We could do something like:

    After BW:
    Worker 1
    -t=36: SE>chop
    -t=37: SW>chop
    -t=38: SE>chop
    -t=39: chop
    -t=40: SW>mine
    -t=42: mine finished (Delhi grows)

    Worker 2
    -t=38: S>chop
    -t=39: chop
    -t=40: SW>mine
    -t=42: mine finished (Dehli grows)

    This would give us the following forests partially chopped:
    1N: 1 turn chopped
    1W: 1 turn chopped
    1S: 4 turns chopped

    We could switch this around a little bit if we want other forests to be more chopped.

    I can do a turn on Sunday or Monday.

    And I can't think of anything that would be better than Pottery. We've got BW (btw, we can switch into Slavery whenever we need it) and our special tiles are all improved. We could have a horse 1SW or 2S of capitol, but that's not enough to tech AH. We don't need fishing right now either.

    EDIT: people are suggesting to move Worker 1 1S>chop then 1S>chop instead of 1SE>chop then 1SW>chop. Is there a reason we'd rather chop a plains forest? I was thinking we'd rather have a grassland forest chopped, for cottaging.
     
  20. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    Lots to read, think about and comment on above (which is great!).

    Quick comment on this from pocketbeetle about whipping:

    The difference between whipping (a) just before growing to size 4 and (b) just after growing is that in the former case (a), we lose a turn on the silver mine (3H6C) and in the latter case (b) it takes more food (3F) to grow. Wouldn't working the silver be better? (Plus one extra turn before the whip the first time we use it.)

    Note: I'm not arguing that we should or shouldn't whip at all, but on this small point, I wanted to make sure I'm thinking about this correctly.

    Everyone (on the team!) is allowed to download the save and look it over. You're definitely not allowed to make any moves though! I usually hit "Pause" as soon as I load it to make sure I don't accidentally click something.

    Also, check to make sure that you don't get a "game not valid for HoF" when you load the save. If you do--and I did initially--there are some permissions that need to be set on some of your game folders. If the game loads without a problem, then you're fine.
     

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