SGOTM 11 - ChokoMisfits

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Re Vassalage,

I can see the advantage but not sure it will work that well as due to not really having much hammer base majority of troops will be completed using the whip so harder to prebuild to within one turn of completion?? As we are in Theocracy we will get 5xp to get two free promotions already. I can give it a try but not sure will work as planned??

I will fit in HBR in between or look for trade, we will need this if we get lucky and get Guilds too.

 

[ianw1610]

As we are in Theocracy we will get 5xp to get two free promotions already.

I think the XP from Theocracy will be nullified as we have no state religion, so the switch to Vassalage is to compensate for that (if I understand correctly).

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

boo forgot about that. As I said can go for Vassalage just dont think the logistics of producing an army in five turns and turning back to bureau is going to be as simple as suggested.

 

[Sleepless]

Well I'm back as well. Good news as we have access to the barb lands.

Had a very quick look at the save and some thoughts.

Kepp the galley near the barb lands and send our troops overland. Will be much quicker than sending/building extra troop ships. Especially once we get engineering which shouldn't be to far away. Note we do need one to cross the lands between us and Sal though.

I think we should give/sell Mehmed Feud. He will then vassal isabella, siop the risk of her getting wiped out. Or alternatively stop the war. Both ways will stop mehmed trrop spamming and get him to settle more of his lands and in the long run very hopefully overtake Justinian.

Good news as Just is not in WHEEOH anymore. No join the war declarations etc.

Great People. Hire 2 scientists/1 Engineer in the Capital and it will overtake Pig/Fish for the next GP and very hopefully get us a GE.

tech once we have PP I believe we can bulb Astro. Obviously do the trade with Just for Optics and hopefully we can get Engineering from Zara when he gets it.

Still where possible avoid trading paper to keep the Ai off Edu.

Now off to read what I have missed.

 

[Sleepless]

Regarding giving Isabella a city would she take it? I know she would in vanilla but if the cost is to much they won't take it in BTS.

Defintely in favour of whipping ourselves an army and get them moving asap.

Losing the GLib. HC it is doubtful it will get another GP so the loss isn't that bad.

 

[ianw1610]

I think we should give/sell Mehmed Feud.

I don't have the save to hand, but we need to check if anyone has Mehmed as a Worst Enemy (especially Saladin). If so, then we want to avoid any "trading with worst enemy" penalty, which may mean we choose not to trade with Mehmed. The same applies if Mehmed demands a tech from us.

tech once we have PP I believe we can bulb Astro.

We could bulb it, but it would likely not be the best use of the Great Scientists. For as long as we don't have SciMeth, we get a base 12bpt from the Great Library, so until SciMeth comes in, our best research options are always to self-research our techs, due to this boost. As soon as SciMeth comes in, and we lose the 12bpt on our self-research efforts, then we can start using Great Scientists to bulb Physics and Electricity (we need a total of 7 GSs to fully bulb those two techs).

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Trading Feudalism to Mehmed II:

I don't have the save to hand, but we need to check if anyone has Mehmed as a Worst Enemy (especially Saladin). If so, then we want to avoid any "trading with worst enemy" penalty, which may mean we choose not to trade with Mehmed. The same applies if Mehmed demands a tech from us.

Mehmed II is the Worst Enemy of Isabella and Saladin, so we would want to be sure we can tolerate a -1 Diplomacy penalty with Saladin before we trade any Technologies to him.

Bulbing Astronomy:

We could bulb it [Astronomy], but it would likely not be the best use of the Great Scientists. For as long as we don't have SciMeth, we get a base 12bpt from the Great Library, so until SciMeth comes in, our best research options are always to self-research our techs, due to this boost. As soon as SciMeth comes in, and we lose the 12bpt on our self-research efforts, then we can start using Great Scientists to bulb Physics and Electricity (we need a total of 7 GSs to fully bulb those two techs).

We also lose the +10% Beaker bonus of Monasteries. The Christian Monastery soon to be completed in Capital will add 7.4 Bpt now and more as we get closer to Scientific Method.

We should save our Great Scientists for Physics and possibly Electricity.

Improving our Research rate:

We have a fair amount of Wealth in the Treasury, 276W. Current deficit is 64 Wpt. Even without reducing our deficit, we could complete Astronomy in 15t (12-13t for knowing Prerequisite Technology [Optics] Beaker discount).

To further increase our sustainable Research rate, we could renegotiate Resource trades with Tokugawa (+1 Wpt), Saladin (+1 Wpt) and Zara Yaqob (+2 Wpt), thus reducing the deficit to 60 Wpt. We can also hire Merchants in Cities where no Great Person would ever be generated. Even building Wealth can be an a good option, since our Empire is not too big and/or sprawled out, but we'd prefer to build Military units and I'm only suggesting Wealth building for a few (1-3) turns in a odd City or two to get Astronomy 1t earlier than otherwise possible.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[ianw1610]

Mehmed II is the Worst Enemy of Isabella and Saladin, so we would want to be sure we can tolerate a -1 Diplomacy penalty with Saladin before we trade any Technologies to him.

Also note that if the AI perceives the trade to be unfairly weighted in the favour of Mehmed, this negative diplomatic penalty from Saladin could increase all the way up to -4, purely on the basis of one transaction. In other words, I'd be VERY cautious about trading with Mehmed.

 

[haphazard1]

I agree with ianw1610 that we should avoid trading with Mehmed. Unless it is absolutely required to prevent Isabella from being wiped out, we do not want to risk up to -4 with Saladin (and Isabella). We are going to need Saladin's votes, whether our eventual rival is Mehmed or Justinian, and -4 would be a very significant setback for us.

With no state religion, Theocracy does not give us any XP bonus. We are going to have to plan for an eventual change of religious civic, as we must have a state religion and have it present in all our cities at the end of the game. This will include any barb cities we capture at Devil's Gate and beyond. We should not leave this to the very end, as we will need to shift back to Theocracy for diplo at the end and may need some turns to re-establish the full bonus with the relevant AIs.

About barb cities...do we want to capture them? Or raze them? They will increase costs, especially if there are several cities to cause colonial expenses. But they also represent additional votes, plus production sites close to the front. Also healing, upgrades, and airship bases. I suppose we could always spin off a colony, although I have never liked doing that since the new AI tends to trade away all of your (formerly) monopoly techs.

Very good news that Justinian has shifted out of WHEOOHRN mode. Keeping all of the western continent AIs happy with us will help greatly with tech trades and keeping relations penalty free for eventual UN voting.

I still think we should find time for a caravel or two for exploration. We may not need them, but I would prefer not to bet on that. And if we build them soon, they can explore over time and we do not have to worry about needing a sudden exploration rush later in case Devil's Gate is a red herring.

What is our position for obtaining the other required resources? Ivory was available, but we also need dye and silk. And it sounded like Mehmed was the only possible source of silk.

 

[ianw1610]

The last time I looked, Mehmed had the only Silk. Also, now that he has captured Madrid and Barcelona, he likely also holds the only Dye.

So, we may need to use one of our DoWs on Mehmed to obtain those two resources.

What is the likelihood of us ever becoming world-leaders in terms of population? If we can do that, then we can build the UN in a small city and gift the city away, to someone who is unpopular, whilst not compromising our place on the UN ballot paper...

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

The last time I looked, Mehmed had the only Silk. Also, now that he has captured Madrid and Barcelona, he likely also holds the only Dye.

So, we may need to use one of our DoWs on Mehmed to obtain those two resources.

What is the likelihood of us ever becoming world-leaders in terms of population? If we can do that, then we can build the UN in a small city and gift the city away, to someone who is unpopular, whilst not compromising our place on the UN ballot paper...

I have thought about that but I think unless we can find new fertile lands then we wont catch up with Justinian

Suppose we could just beat up on someone!!

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

I was just about to start and I noticed that we resource trades to Mehmed. Do these count as trades to worst enemies?? We also have open borders. I'm not 100% sure what counts as a trade in these circumstances?? If these need to be cancelled we should do it asap as we want to avoid any penalty with Saladin.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Worst Enemy Diplomatic Penalties:

I was just about to start and I noticed that we resource trades to Mehmed. Do these count as trades to worst enemies?? We also have open borders. I'm not 100% sure what counts as a trade in these circumstances?? If these need to be cancelled we should do it asap as we want to avoid any penalty with Saladin.

Penalties are incurred only on the turn the trade is made. One will never get a penalty for trades that were made prior to a Civ becoming a Worst Enemy of another. You will still get the Diplomatic penalties, even if you didn't know the Civ when you traded with its Worst Enemy.

Also, I'm not sure one can even get the penalty for trading Open Borders for example. Even commencing trade of Resources with a Worst Enemy doesn't seem to result in a Diplomatic penalty. Trading Technologies doesn't always do it, but often does.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Played 11 to bring total turns to 225,

We have nearly completed basic expeditionary force for barb lands, have gained PP, HBR, Optics and 3-4 turns from Astro.

Other key points - No news from Otto/Spanish war although we did get a stop trading request from Sally to stop trading with Mehmed. Major thought was that we didn't want anymore minus penalties with Sally. As soon as I hit agree the thought that it would mean Mehmed refusing to talk for a number of turns, meaning no peace talks . Hopefully it wont be a problem.

No other tech trades really came up Justinian has Nationalism and Eng for trade but we only have Paper in return at the moment. I sold CS to Zara as he only had 2 turns left to research himself. We could sell Lit to Toku to raise some cash to help finish Astro.

Another GS from PigFish to add to the pile in the Capital.

Turn notes from turnset

Spoiler :

T0 trade CS for Optics and map to Justinian, renegotiate deal to Zara for extra 2gpt, try with Sally but has no gold for trade now!! decide against risking siniliar to Toku.
HC => Hindu Temple
OW => Cat
Pfish => Mace
3Clams => LB

T1, Izzy asks for war, refuse, whip Lhouse in Crabtown

T2, Justin has Eng but we have nothing to trade, PP => HBR, Crabtown => Library

T3, Cap => Mace, OW=> WE HBR=>Astro

T4, Sally completes SC at least some more

T5 HC => Xbow, Pfish => Lbow

T6 trade Corn for 5gpt to Sally, Cap => Xbow

T8 GS born in Pig Fish, sent to Capital. Change to Vassalage start the whip

T9 Uh?? Bugger, didnt realise that only our top 3 cities have Barracks, sorry, troops out of others have only 2 XP. Sold CS to Zara for 90g as he only had 2 turns left.

T10 Sally asks to cancel deals with Mehmed, Knowing we need to keep Sally happy I agree although this means Mehmed refuses to talk!! Missing Barracks whipped where needed

T11 Stop here on Turn 225, we have completed, or whippable this turn, an army consisting 4 Maces, 3 Cats, 2 WEs, 2 Lbows and 1 xbow. We have 2 turns before we can change back to Bureau and 3-4 turns off Astro.

I noticed that a couple of cities worked tiles need rechecking after being whipped which I hadnt sorted before saving.

 

[ianw1610]

Just a few random thoughts...

Now that we have stopped trading with Mehmed, it is highly likely that the only way we will get Silk and Dye is by DoWing him and capturing the relevant cities.

Saladin completing the Sistine Chapel may mean that we will not get a Cultural victory, so we need to focus fully on a Diplomatic victory.

Saladin's fair and forthright trading bonus to us has decreased to +2. We may want to gift him Optics to return this to +4.

Now that we have Optics, we should build a Workboat to claim that source of Whale in the south.

DeerFish has no military unit stationed in the City - it needs a unit.

We have still not settled the HorseFish site... do we intend to settle this site anytime soon??

Possible gamebreaker 7 turns from now... 53% chance that we will generate that elusive Great Engineer to build the United Nations... but a 47% chance that this will not happen.

Research path should be Astronomy - Liberalism (but stop 1 turn from completion) - SciMeth.


JerichoHill up next.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Excellent Turn Set, Mighty Dwaarf!

Comment on The Sistine Chapel:

It's important to note that Saladin built The Sistine Chapel before we could; that will make a Cultural Victory more difficult for us and easier for Saladin; hopefully we got plenty of Wealth to compensate for the portion of The Sistine Chapel we did complete.

Other comments with future turn sets in mind:

Saladin will complete Engineering in 2t; We should trade Philosophy + Optics + World Map + <All Saladin's Wealth -- now 160W> for Engineering in 2t. Engineering will allow our non-mounted units to move 3 tiles/turn on Roads; it will also permit building Trebuchets and Pikemen.

We are already running at the free unit maintenance limit of Vassalage; Any additional units we build will cost us 1 Wpt each. We need to consider the price of switching back to Bureaucracy (+50% Hammers and +50% Commerce versus paying something like 15 Wpt in unit maintenance). We may want to stay in Vassalage until we capture a few Barbarian Cities.

Our military stack is going to cost us 1/2 Wpt per unit for out of Cultural Boundary maintenance. We seem to be putting together a stack of ample units: 4 Macemen, 2 Catapults, 2 War Elephants, 2 Crossbowmen, 2 Longbowmen, and 2 Chariots (14 units). As long as we are building so many units, two more Catapults or 2 Trebuchets would be good for pounding more heavily defended Barbarian Cities (total of 16 units or 8 Wpt).

Our War against the Barbarians will be costly, but worthwhile if we find the Fur Tile.

Empire Improvements:

We need to build more Cottages in Capital (no Farms beyond the two Corn Farms). Why was a Plains Farm built there? At least two more Riverside Plains Cottages could be built in Capital.

All other Cities, need Farms.

We currently have five Workers; we should have at least ten Workers.

We could have another 1-2 Settlers; HorseFish remains unsettled; we might also find a site for Isabella to move to, assuming we must give her a City to keep her alive.

Most Cities are well below Happiness Cap and most have too much whipping unhappiness; grow Cities to happiness Caps. Do not whip away Great Person Farm Population except those buildings that are essential for a functioning Great Person Farm (Granary, Lighthouse, National Epic -- Library, University, Observatory and Laboratory for Great Scientist Farm -- maybe buildings to increase Health or Happiness Cap).

Capital: 2 more Riverside Plains Cottages; 2 more Grassland Cottages (we will eventually switch back to Bureaucracy which will add a +50% Commerce bonus to all Cottages through Towns).

OasisWheat: Some Mines -> Windmills with future HorseFish in mind.

CrabTown: needs a Courthouse

SilverWhale: Start a Work Boat and whip it to improve Whale Tile and work the Whale Tile in preference to all other Tiles.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Now that we have stopped trading with Mehmed, it is highly likely that the only way we will get Silk and Dye is by DoWing him and capturing the relevant cities.

Definitely we can plan on this worst case scenario, but we only cancelled trade with Mehmed II (we did not declare War on him). He is still at 0 Diplomatic and when he "cools off", we may be able to get Open Borders with him or still get the Silk and Dye trades we need from him. We can't afford to cancel trade with him again. Remember that we don't want to take Silk and Dye by force, since that would lower Mehmed II's Population ensuring that Justinian I becomes our TUN opponent and we definitely prfer it to be Mehmed II.

Saladin completing the Sistine Chapel may mean that we will not get a Cultural victory, so we need to focus fully on a Diplomatic victory.

It's still possible to win a Cultural Victory without The Sistine Chapel, but we need to spread our Religions to build Cathedrals in Capital, OasisWheat and HorseCopper. We need to build at least one Monastery of each Religion we have (now Hinduism, Christianity and Judaism). We are building a Hindu Monastery in HorseCopper now. We need to build a Jewish Monastery in RiceMarble.

Saladin's fair and forthright trading bonus to us has decreased to +2. We may want to gift him Optics to return this to +4.

DO NOT GIVE OPTICS TO SALADIN!

Wait 2t until Saladin has completed Engineering; then trade Philosophy + Optics for Engineering. I suspect that this trade will be sufficiently unbalanced in Saladin's favour to provide +2 in "fair trading" bonus. Otherwise, if we give Optics to Saladin, we would need to trade Philosophy + Paper for Engineering and we definitely do not want to do that.

DeerFish has no military unit stationed in the City - it needs a unit.

Move the Warrior from Capital to DeerFish.

Possible gamebreaker 7 turns from now... 53% chance that we will generate that elusive Great Engineer to build the United Nations... but a 47% chance that this will not happen.

Both ThreeClams (16% Great Engineer) and PigFish (50% Great Engineer - higher than it should be) have an Engineer working and these two Cities (especially PigFish with National Epic) should generate at least another Great Person. HorseCopper also has 16% Great Engineer, but the Engineer working there has been fired recently; hiring an Engineer and 2 Scientists in HorseCopper would generate a Great Person in 18t (accounting for 133 more GPP needed 1333 rather than 1200), after Capital generates a Great Person in 7t (1200 GPP).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Since No Caravels have been built, we should presumably build Galleons after Astronomy?

We could build two Galleons and load them with a Chariot each and even build two Horse Archers to pair with them. Would be better to have Guilds and build Knights. A pair of Combat II Knights would be quite difficult for Barbarians of this Era to harm, much less kill. Just stay out of range of Barbarian Spearmen which could do some damage to C2 Knights.

Probably not worth diverting for 5t-7t of Guilds just to built Knights.

Galleons should be tough enough to scout out all Shorelines of where Barbarians might be in the "Huge Seas of Black on our Map". The Chariot and Horse Archer pair should survive for a while to map some of the interior of Lands yet Unknown (unless the Barbarians there are really nasty or really tame ).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[haphazard1]

Looks like a pretty good turnset, Mighty Dwaarf!

We have our barb conquering army almost ready to move. I agree with Sun Tzu Wu that we should probably add a couple more siege units -- Devil's Gate has popped borders at least, and barbs will build walls. So some siege is definitely needed.

I think agreeing to Sal's demand was the right choice -- no matter who our rival ends up being, we will need Saladin's votes. Hopefully we can still get resources from Mehmed later. If not...our military will have some more work to do.

We should build a couple galleons once we have Astronomy and explore the big black areas. I am not sure if we need any units on those ships -- I am not sure there is anything out there for a land unit to stand on. But we need to be sure.

Let's grow our cities -- the extra pop will increase our unit cap by a little bit (1 per 4 pop, I think?), and every bit will help. How much base commerce is the capital pulling in? We might want to revolt back to Bureaucracy even with the higher unit costs.

I believe JerichoHill is up next?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

We should build a couple galleons once we have Astronomy and explore the big black areas. I am not sure if we need any units on those ships -- I am not sure there is anything out there for a land unit to stand on. But we need to be sure.

We can probably spare one Chariot per Galleon to explore any Land we find. We already have the two Chariots in CrabTown.

I agree that going back to Bureaucracy may be worthwhile, but we should know how much extra unit maintenance to expect, so there's no surprise ...

Sun Tzu Wu