SGOTM 11 - Gypsy Kings

[Harbourboy]

Hey, don't I count as a surviving Geezer too...

You've ascended to godhood. You don't count. [/end disturbance of Gypsy Kings planning]

 

[da_Vinci]

Warrior will move first, is NW the logical move? If we see something up there that is useful, whether we want it in capital, or in a second city, will influence settler move.

If we don't settle in place, we should estimate the forests gained or lost and hills gained or lost by various settler moves. This should be easier once we can fog gaze into the actual save, instead of the screenshot.

dV

 

[Jon Shaw]

checking in- hello again "old" GKs, and hi for the first time Griff.

I've got a few thoughts to chuck into the mix:

spi trait- can switch civics "free". If other civs demand changes, it is worth considering doing it more than usual- bonus relation points (for doing their bidding, possibly also for adopting the favourite civic as Griff says), and we can swap civics back after a few turns anyway if we want to.

fur is under barbs so prob won't have to delare war on anyone to get it. I agree it will probably be in a difficult to access location buried under lots of advanced barbs. Nukes might be the easiest way to get it.

Some (all?) great people can explore other civs' territory without open borders. Useful for exploring to find resources.

Do you get a declare war penalty if you never agree to peace in the first place (i.e. when meeting other civs for the first time)?

aiding AIs who might be wiped out by other AIs warring with them: we can sail/walk/airlift over units and donate/gift them. That way we can massively boost the weaker AI without being at war with the stronger AI.

I'm not in favour of getting an early religion- picking up whatever spread most near us is fine.

I like the idea of sending the settler onto the plains hill, and settling there if it doesn't reveal anything untoward.

May be worth doing archery early- without copper/iron barbs could be a pain otherwise

I'm not free until Tuesday evening UK time. If that is too far away then I'm happy to have my position switched to something further down the roster.

 

[Grifftavian]

checking in- hello again "old" GKs, and hi for the first time Griff.

I've got a few thoughts to chuck into the mix:

spi trait- can switch civics "free". If other civs demand changes, it is worth considering doing it more than usual- bonus relation points (for doing their bidding, possibly also for adopting the favourite civic as Griff says), and we can swap civics back after a few turns anyway if we want to.

Hello back. If the demand is to change Civics or adopt a religion, I think it would be worth doing it. We would get a 10-turn peace treaty in addition to the positive attitude points, and, as you said, we could switch back to what we had in 5 turns. Hmmm... if we switch back and the civ returns to make the same demand again, would we get additional positive attitude points?

If the demand is to stop trading with another Civ, then maybe not. We've have to consider what we're giving up by stopping trade. It's possible that we may need to trade for the Dye, Ivory or Silk, so wouldn't want to burn some bridges we may need. Another reason to get out exploring early, to stay on the good side of someone we may need to trade with.

fur is under barbs so prob won't have to delare war on anyone to get it. I agree it will probably be in a difficult to access location buried under lots of advanced barbs. Nukes might be the easiest way to get it.

Good thing we all have some recent experience building lots of nukes.

Some (all?) great people can explore other civs' territory without open borders. Useful for exploring to find resources.

If the Servopedia in the BUFFY mod is correct, only Great Merchants and Great Spies can explore rival territory.

Do you get a declare war penalty if you never agree to peace in the first place (i.e. when meeting other civs for the first time)?

I would think so, but I'm not sure.

aiding AIs who might be wiped out by other AIs warring with them: we can sail/walk/airlift over units and donate/gift them. That way we can massively boost the weaker AI without being at war with the stronger AI.<snip>

Would gifting units to a Civ at war earn us a "you traded with our worst enemy" penalty with the other Civ? A good point none the less, and something to keep in mind. We'll have to do whatever we can to keep all the AI Civs alive.

 

[Grifftavian]

The starting save is available on the Progress & Results table. I've downloaded it and opened it without problems. Attached is a cropped and enlarged screen shot of the starting position from the actual game.

 

[bcool]

I can play a few test games and probably the 1st turn this weekend. The first turn usually isn't a big deal once we come to agreement on the 1st tech and build, and of course if and where to move the warrior and settler.

I'd like to do some tests with plains hill start before deciding to move there just to see.

bcool

 

[Ronnie1]

I am busy all day today....

The ROSTER ORDER is as follows....

Jon Shaw = on deck ...switched on Jon's request
bcool = LEADING OFF
da_Vinci = in the hole
Grifftavian = waiting
Conquistador63 = waiting
Ronnie1 = waiting
Adrianj = waiting

Worker 1st is a no brainer. 1st turnset will play through completion of worker I think.

Settling location and warrior move is what we need to decide.

 

[da_Vinci]

aiding AIs who might be wiped out by other AIs warring with them: we can sail/walk/airlift over units and donate/gift them. That way we can massively boost the weaker AI without being at war with the stronger AI.

Only drawback is that AI may use gifts stupidly ... we would need to have an observer around to keep an eye on what is happening.

I am busy all day today....

The ROSTER ORDER is as follows....

Jon Shaw = on deck ...switched on Jon's request
bcool = LEADING OFF
da_Vinci = in the hole
Grifftavian = waiting
Conquistador63 = waiting
Ronnie1 = waiting
Adrianj = waiting

Worker 1st is a no brainer. 1st turnset will play through completion of worker I think.

Settling location and warrior move is what we need to decide.

Does this mean that first tech and first build are both already decided? Worker first seems clear, have we decided not to go for a religion up front (discussion seems to have leaned that way)?

Maybe we want to calculate time to first settler with settle in place vs. plains hill? It is useful to remember that on, say, turn 200, the added benefit of settling any city one turn earlier is the output of that city in turn 200, not its output when you first settled it. (This assumes settled in the same place and developed in exactly the same way, just one turn earlier vs. later. So if the delay involves finding a "better" site, the calulation of risk/benefit is less clear cut).

For anyone accessing the save so far ... any blue circle action with the settler?

dV

 

[Grifftavian]

<snip>

For anyone accessing the save so far ... any blue circle action with the settler?

dV

I checked that; no blue circles with the Settler selected (see attached screen shot).

 

[Conquistador 63]

I also opened the save to exercise my fog-gazing abilities. At least to me, it looks like there is coast 2SW of both warrior and settler. Moving warrior 1SW could confirm it, who knows if there is a couple coastal fish to make us settle 2W? Very unlikely, I know, but...

 

[Grifftavian]

^I zoomed in with the field of view slider, can't decide if its coast or tundra. 1SE of the plains hill looks like it could be a tundra hill.

I have no problem with moving the Warrior 1 SW. If we're not going to settle in place, should we consider moving the Settler 1SW + 1 SE? That could reveal about 4 riverside tiles to the south.

 

[bcool]

got it

pre play plan to follow shortly

 

[bcool]

Pre Play Plan

Send warrior 1 SW
move settler onto plains hill (this does seem to give us a good look around and the extra early hammer is worth the risk I think). There definitely is tundra 1 SE of plains hill so I'm a bit worried that start position won't be better than settling in place.

Stop after movement of turn 1 and consult the group about settlement decision after tiles are revealed.

After settlement discussion
research agriculture, then ??? based on resources revealed (maybe bronze working although that might leave our worker with nothing to do for a few turns if we settled on the hills)

Build Worker (regardless)

 

[bcool]

looking at the map using the flying camera
It looks like there are at least 3 mountains to the NE, Forest to the north, a single mountain N/NW, probably ocean to the SW

 

[Conquistador 63]

Good PPP. I ran a couple tests with Griff's save , settling in place and on PH (creating somewhat awkward dotmapping for next cities - but that is just on Griff's map).

Definitely convinced by the benefits of that extra hammer. Getting the worker earlier/farming 2*corn earlier, I was able to build 2 warriors and a settler by t46, being at size 4 and able to whip/chop the 2nd settler @t50. In place the same build list would get 1st settler not before t53.

In the tests animals showed up t8, so be sure to end movement in forest or hills by then. Also, early religions founded by t12 - not that we are still considering going that route.

EDIT: settling on PH we complete BW t35 and 2nd corn is farmed t36 so nothing to worry about idle worker turns

 

[Grifftavian]

Pre Play Plan

Send warrior 1 SW
move settler onto plains hill (this does seem to give us a good look around and the extra early hammer is worth the risk I think). There definitely is tundra 1 SE of plains hill so I'm a bit worried that start position won't be better than settling in place.

Stop after movement of turn 1 and consult the group about settlement decision after tiles are revealed.

After settlement discussion
research agriculture, then ??? based on resources revealed (maybe bronze working although that might leave our worker with nothing to do for a few turns if we settled on the hills)

Build Worker (regardless)

PPP sounds good to me.

I assume you'll post a screen shot after the first move

Good PPP. I ran a couple tests with Griff's save , settling in place and on PH (creating somewhat awkward dotmapping for next cities - but that is just on Griff's map).

Definitely convinced by the benefits of that extra hammer. Getting the worker earlier/farming 2*corn earlier, I was able to build 2 warriors and a settler by t46, being at size 4 and able to whip/chop the 2nd settler @t50. In place the same build list would get 1st settler not before t53.

In the tests animals showed up t8, so be sure to end movement in forest or hills by then. Also, early religions founded by t12 - not that we are still considering going that route.

EDIT: settling on PH we complete BW t35 and 2nd corn is farmed t36 so nothing to worry about idle worker turns

Sounds like you went Agriculture, Bronze Working in your test game, is that correct? Probably the best way to go for REX.

Question for team: being new to the Gypsy Kings, do you normally play the standard 20-turn turnsets?

 

[bcool]

so move the warrior 1SW and the settler to plains hill, do we have agreement?

I'm move and post the screen shot in about an hour unless I hear objections

bcool

 

[Ronnie1]

If we find coastal fish???....would we consider moving further and settling a coastal capitol? I'm not sure I would prefer a coastal capitol, but we need a coastal city right away so we can start exploring by water also.

Does this mean that first tech and first build are both already decided?

NO, it means I was in a hurry yesterday, and forgot to say anything about tech path. I do think we are more in favor of going AG>BW....at least I am! Religion wastes valuable early turns for our workers. I would even consider going worker>worker(or partial)...waiting for the first corn to be farmed, as soon as it is ready, switch to warrior to grow to size 2, and then finish the 2nd worker. Using this path I was able to have a settler ready to march on T47 with 2 workers having chopped 3 forests into the settler.

I just tested worker>warrior>worker>settler and get settler ready to move at T47 also.

I think either path is a pretty solid open. The only problem we could run into is having our starting warrior eaten by an animal so we aren't able to scout fully for second city site.

 

[Ronnie1]

@bcool....Please move the warrior SW and post a screenshot BEFORE you move the settler!

EDIT: @griff....we kinda look for natural break points for turnset length. Completion of research, or a specific build or military conquest maybe. We also use(and need to more sometimes(please forgive me sgotm gods)), STOP actions = anything majorly unexpected that needs to be addressed immediately. I should have stopped last game at turn #2 when I saw Gandhi's scout but didn't!

 

[bcool]

ok moving warrior and then posting screen shot