1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 20, 2010.

  1. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    29,144
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England

    BtS SGOTM 11 - Welcome the Goddess



    Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 11 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

    You are playing as Gandhi and, appropriately, your civilization is dedicated to the worship of the Goddess of Peace, Eldine, who will enter the world to bring in an era of everlasting happiness on the very day that you prove her righteousness to the world by securing a peaceful victory over the other civilizations. There is but one problem. Eldine is currently naked and must be clothed when she enters the world. In order to clothe her in a manner as befits a great Goddess, you must have access to fur, dye, silk and ivory. Your Holy books tell you that Eldine will use the fur as a portal through which to enter the world, and to demonstrate your devotion to her, you must have a welcoming party ready on the fur: Four great people (to symbolise Eldine's greatness) and four warriors (to symbolise the toil and labour as you raised Eldine's great civilization from a single settler). This will be no easy feat, since rumour has it that fur is so rare that only one unique supply exists, and that is heavily guarded by the most vile barbarians. Doubtless this was the result of meddling by the Devil Satan when the world was young and the Gods not paying sufficient attention.

    Oh, and Eldine detests war and all its trappings. On the day she enters the world, she will question your brother and sister AI civs to ascertain how you have treated them, and will be distressed beyond belief should she discover that you have been excessively warlike towards them - in that case she will reject your civilization and look for more worthy worshippers.

    Your aim in this game is to welcome in Eldine by securing a cultural or diplomatic victory that satisfies the following conditions:

    • Every AI is still alive and running a state religion.
    • All your cities have access to fur, dye, silk and ivory.
    • You have the welcoming party of four great people and four warriors standing ready on the only fur in the world. (The great people can be of any type)
    • You are running a state religion which has been spread to every one of your cities.
    • No more than two AIs have a 'you declared war on us' negative modifier towards you.

    The winner of the competition is the team that secures the earliest (measured by date) cultural or diplomatic victory where all these conditions are satisfied on the turn of your victory. Obviously your game is forfeit should you lose the game or win by some other victory condition. If you win a cultural or diplomatic victory without satisfying all the conditions, your game will be listed and ranked within a secondary group for the amusement of other teams (especially if you do something silly that makes it impossible for you satisfy the conditions, like letting ivory become obsolete, or having fewer than 4 warriors when your tech becomes too advanced to let you build any more).

    Timetable
    The start files will be published on Friday, April 23 here. There will be one start file per team. Please ensure that you only download your own team file.

    The finish deadline is August 23 2010. If any team has not finished by this date they will be deemed to have retired, and will not be eligible for any awards.

    Starting Position
    Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



    Map Parameters
    • Playable Leader/Civ - Gandhi of India
    • Traits - Spiritual, Philosophical (starts with Mysticism and Mining)
    • Unique Unit - Fast Worker (replaces Worker)
    • Unique Building - Mausoleum (replaces Jail)
    • Starting Era - Ancient
    • Difficulty - Emperor
    • Game Speed - Epic (750 turns)
    • World size - Standard
    • Rivals - Six
    • Landform - Fractal
    • Sea level - Medium
    • Climate - Temperate
    • Other settings - No goodie huts, No events
    • Victory Conditions - All enabled
    Notes
    • Versions
      This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.19, using the HoF Mod BUFFY-3.19.003. This HoF Mod version is available here.

      If a later BtS patch, or BUFFY version, is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in the above versions before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.

      Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows game on their system.
    • Awards
      Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the Fastest victory that meets the above stated conditions, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.
    • Rules and Procedures
      Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

      All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.
    Have fun :)
     
  2. babybluepants

    babybluepants Chieftain GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,825
    Location:
    Vancouver
    SGOTM 11 ONE SHORT STRAW
    GAME SUMMARY

    TS 01 : 4000 BC - 3625 BC (Turn 15) Agriculture Played by shyuhe

    Turnset Report
    Most of the discussion regarding the first set was about whether to settle in place or on the plains hill 1SE, with the PH winning out. Gained a silver and lost copper (expected) - so great deal. Agriculture was a no-brainer. Our initial warrior hugged the coast SW, before beginning to circle around the capital clockwise.
    Stats: 1 City, 1 Pop, 0 Workers, 10bpt
    Tech: Agriculture 3625 BC


    TS 02 : 3625 BC - 3350 BC (Turn 26) Played by mushroomshirt

    Turnset Report
    Most of the discussion revolved around the method of getting to the first settler and the tech after Agriculture. Mutineer made a strong case for Wheel and slow-building, but the team consensus turned out to be for BW and chop/whip.
    The other priority was getting some scouting done around Aksum before its second border pop, as out initial warrior had gone the other way. We brought it back across towards Zara in this set.
    Stats: 1 City, 1 Pop, 1 Worker, 10bpt
    Tech: None (Bronze Working in progress)


    TS 03 : 3350 BC - 3100 BC (Turn 36) Bronze Working Played by Silu

    Turnset Report
    Proceeded to scout around Aksum (the initial warrior went counter-clockwise in the south), and confirmed that there is no particularly great spot for a block city between the two capitals. Completed the corn farms and BW.
    Stats: 1 City, 3 Pop, 1 Worker, 11bpt
    Tech: Bronze Working 3100 BC


    TS 04 : 3100 BC - 1675 BC (Turn 93) Civil Service Slingshot Played by Mutineer

    Turnset Report
    We decided to go for a Civil Service slingshot. Since testing showed that post-1500 BC would likely be too late, the focus was on getting to the Oracle sling as fast as possible. Mutineer achieved 1700 BC in a sling test. This involved using the first GS to bulb Math. We went ahead and played out a really long set, since the micromanagement involved in the sling was tight.
    In other developments: we planted Bombay 1SE of stone / 2N of copper; we met Justinian's exploring workboat about halfway through the set; neither Stonehenge nor Great Wall were built yet.
    Stats: 2 Cities, 10 Pop, 2 Workers, 61bpt @ 100% with -3gpt
    Tech: The Wheel 2875 BC / Pottery 2675 BC / Writing 2375 BC / Meditation 2225 BC / Priesthood 2125 BC / Mathematics (GS bulb) 1975 BC / Code of Laws 1700 BC / Civil Service (Oracle) 1675 BC


    TS 05 : 1675 BC - 1500 BC (Turn 100) Masonry & Animal Husbandry Played by mystyfly

    Turnset Report
    This was a short set to backfill Masonry and AH, get another worker and two more settlers quickly, as well as hook up stone for Pyramids. We also cashed in a whopping 19g for a failed SH build. GW went about the same time.
    Stats: 2 Cities, 7 Pop, 1 Settler, 3 Workers, 31bpt @ 80% with -1gpt
    Tech: Masonry 1650 BC / Animal Husbandry 1525 BC


    TS 06: 1500 BC - 1050 BC (Turn 118) Pyramids Played by mdy

    Turnset Report
    We went on a Bureau whipping spree, to catch up on REX and complete Pyramids. Settled: Two Fish (GP farm), Oasis (1NE of oasis in the NE). Two more settlers are on their way to 3clam/cow/marble and rice/marble. Delhi is starting on Aqueduct, in preparation for HG - we'll try for a UN GE here. We also discovered the ivory island.
    Teched Fishing and Sailing. We won't be teching anything else until after we get an academy GS from Delhi, since our current REX plans will drop the slider temporarily. There doesn't seem to be a clear consensus yet on the tech path after that, with Currency or Alphabet/Currency (to kick start trading and help with REX costs) as the leading candidate.
    Stats: 4 Cities, 9 Pop, 2 Settlers, 4 Workers, 71bpt @ 100% with -20gpt
    Tech: Fishing 1450 BC / Sailing 1225 BC


    TS 07: 1050 BC - 675 BC (Turn 133) Currency Played by LowtherCastle

    Turnset Report, Part 1
    Turnset Report, Part 2
    Settled Rice, but sent the Marble settler back towards the ivory island. Marble settled later in the set. Met all AIs. Tokugawa discovered Alphabet. We traded COL to him for it, and then backfilled a bit through Zara. Our explorer discovered the dyes north on Isabella midway through the set. After quite a bit of discussion, we decided not to pursue settling there. Adopted Caste near the end of the set to pop borders and start on gpp.
    Tech: Alphabet 925 BC (trade); Polytheism 900 BC (trade); Iron Working 875 BC (trade); Monotheism 875 BC (trade); Currency 750 BC


    TS 08: 675 BC - 470 BC (Turn 142) Played by shyuhe

    Turnset Report, Part 1
    Turnset Report, Part 2
    We get Buddhist spread in Ivory! Summary to follow...
    Stats: 8 Cities, 28 Pop


    TS 09: 470 BC - 245 BC (Turn 157) Philosophy, Paper & Metal Casting Played by Mutineer

    Turnset Report
    Summary to follow...
    Tech: Hunting 470 BC; Philosophy 365 BC (GS bulb); Paper 350 BC; Monarchy 320 BC (trade); Metal Casting 275 BC


    TS 10: 245 BC - 20 BC (Turn 172) Education & university spam Played by babybluepants

    Turnset Report, Part 1
    Turnset Report, Part 2
    Some tight planning involved to get our Educ-bulb GS and set up all cities for a short whipping spree. Slight micro mistake delayed one university by 1t. Delhi was pre-chopped for Oxford and Two Fish set up for a quick NE build later. We also used the Slavery/OR dip to start the Buddhist spam from Ivory (our only city with Buddhism at this point). Our plan was already to convert Justinian (religion-less) and Zara for the eventual votes, but Justinian luckily got Buddhist auto-spread this TS. Made our job a bit easier.
    Our western explorer WB got killed by a barb galley somewhere on Justinian's west coast. :( We decide to send a spy/galley/trireme trio over asap.
    Tech: Education 80 BC (GS bulb)


    TS 11: 20 BC - 310 AD (Turn 194) National Wonders, Literature & Music Played by mdy

    Turnset Report, Part 1
    Turnset Report, Part 2
    Completed Oxford in Delhi in 25 AD and NE quickly after in Two Fish. Full-on research phase started here and we had our GPP all figured out for the first time: we'd bomb two GM's in Mecca (ToA), pop a GE and have 3-4 GS bulbs by the end. A small disaster happened this set, though - we failed to get a GE at 93% odds. This meant we'd have to continue dedicating Delhi to Eng points and forego the GLib for sure.
    Tech: Aesthetics 55 AD; Literature 70 AD; Machinery 115 AD; Calender 235 AD (trade); Printing Press 250 AD (GS bulb); Archery 265 AD; Music 295 AD


    TS 12: 310 AD - 460 AD (Turn 204) Astronomy Played by babybluepants

    Turnset Report, Part 1
    Turnset Report, Part 2
    The spy landed on barb island, and we have located the fur!
    Tech: Compass 325 AD; Optics 355 AD; Astronomy 400 AD (GS bulb)


    TS 13: 460 AD - 625 AD (Turn 215) Scientific Method Played by mystyfly

    Turnset Report, Part 1
    Turnset Report, Part 2
    We scouted the barb island further during this set, and started our mace build-up. The only thing that could derail our plans at this stage was Mehmed becoming larger than Tokugawa. Our tentative plan to deal with this was to potentially invade Saladin and gift some of his cities to Tokugawa.
    Continued with the Buddhist spread slowly.
    Research: completed Scientific Method and started on Physics. We still needed another GM trade mission - still struggling with gpp at this point - we ended up running way too many merchants overall, as we got a couple of GS at 50-ish odds at this time.
    Tech: Feudalism 475 AD (trade); Construction 505 AD (trade); Theology 505 AD (trade); Scientific Method 520 AD (GS bulb)


    TS 14: 625 AD - 805 AD (Turn 227) Physics Played by shyuhe

    Turnset Report
    Critical development: we got the GE at 56% in Delhi. :goodjob: Also cashed the second GM in Mecca, giving us most of the cash we need to complete the research phase. Captured Devil's Gate. Everything rolling along smoothly now - it's just a matter of completing research and Buddhist spread in an optimal way.
    Stats: 13 Cities, 117 Pop, 11 workers
    Tech: Physics 670 AD


    TS 15: 805 AD - 920 AD (Turn 237) Mass Media Played by mdy

    Turnset Report
    Finished Electricity with a bulb, as well as the last turn of Lib for Radio. We traded away some techs, switched to FR and ran the max science we could without starving, for a 7t Mass Media run. Delhi's cottages were converted to workshops the turn before MM, and a build completed for max overflow. Switched to US and OR after MM, for the UN build and missionary spam. Unfortunately, we couldn't trade for Guilds by this point, and it looked like we wouldn't be able to pull off a 2t UN build as hoped.
    Stats: 13 Cities, 117 Pop, 11 workers
    Tech: Electricity 820 AD (GS bulb); Liberalism 835 AD; Radio 850 AD (Lib); Mass Media 920 AD


    TS 16: 920 AD - 1030 AD (Turn 248) Diplomatic Victory Played by babybluepants

    Turnset Report
    We maxed out our gpt and gave away some units, in hopes that we can still get some cash from AIs and rush-buy for a 2t build. Got lucky, and the AIs had the exact amount needed next turn. The rest of set was straightforward: buy 5-6 remaining missionaries, transport last GP (born 1t after MM) to fur, switch to Theo/Vassalage just in case and renegotiate our silk and dye trades just in case. Won on first vote - 11t after MM.
    Stats: 13 Cities, 123 Pop
    Tech: Guilds (trade) 960 AD


    RESEARCH TIMELINE
    Spoiler :

    3625 Agriculture
    3100 Bronze Working
    2875 The Wheel
    2675 Pottery
    2375 Writing
    2225 Meditation
    2125 Priesthood
    1975 Mathematics (GS bulb)
    1700 Code of Laws
    1675 Civil Service (Oracle)
    1650 Masonry
    1525 Animal Husbandry
    1450 Fishing
    1225 Sailing
    0925 Alphabet (trade)
    0900 Polytheism (trade)
    0875 Iron Working (trade)
    0875 Monotheism (trade)
    0750 Currency
    0470 Hunting (trade)
    0365 Philosophy (GS bulb)
    0350 Paper
    0320 Monarchy (trade)
    0275 Metal Casting
    0080 Education (GS bulb)
    ------------------------------------AD's
    0055 Aesthetics
    0070 Literature
    0115 Machinery
    0235 Calendar
    0250 Printing Press (GS Bulb)
    0265 Archery
    0295 Music (Free GA)
    0325 Compass
    0355 Optics
    0400 Astronomy (GS bulb)
    0475 Feudalism (trade)
    0505 Construction (trade)
    0505 Theology (trade)
    0520 Scientific Method
    0670 Physics (GS bulb)
    0820 Electricity (GS bulb)
    0835 Liberalism
    0850 Radio (Liberalism)
    0920 Mass Media
    0960 Guilds (trade)
     
  3. babybluepants

    babybluepants Chieftain GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,825
    Location:
    Vancouver
  4. mushroomshirt

    mushroomshirt Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2005
    Messages:
    629
    Location:
    Northern CA, USA
    Hi! I'm here too. I'll repost my message about the practice game in case anyone is interested. shyuhe mentioned he saw some problems with the pic... let me know what they are and I will fix and then post the save.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=250095&d=1271732376



     
  5. shyuhe

    shyuhe Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,062
    Location:
    Gone fishing for the summer
    Roster (I'll try to update with the active player):

    me (Just playing first two turns to settle)
    babybluepants
    mushroomshirt
    Silu
    Mutineer
    mystyfly
    mdy
    RRRaskolnikov
    LowtherCastle (lurking)
     
  6. babybluepants

    babybluepants Chieftain GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,825
    Location:
    Vancouver
    @mushroomshirt,
    NNE of settler should be grass; W of warrior is plains; W of settler is grass; settler plains. That's all I see... Go ahead and post your save.
     
  7. shyuhe

    shyuhe Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,062
    Location:
    Gone fishing for the summer
    Checking in.

    @mushroomshirt - it looks like you already fixed what I was going to point out. The tiles to the NW of the starting warrior in the fog are all forests - you can tell that from the spoiler pic we get.

    So big picture items (sorry for the long list but these are just my pre-game thoughts):

    1. We should go for UN, unless somebody has a very convincing reason why culture will be faster/safer. The fastest way to the UN (assuming we pick up two vassals to vote for us) will be a straight bulb down the radio line capped by liberalism for radio (mass media is cheaper), although I'll have to do test maps to see how reliable that is on emperor. I think it's reasonably doable since we're philosophical.

    We will also require an engineer. Without having done any tests, I think our great people count will run something like:
    2 for electricity
    2 for physics
    2 for SM
    1 for astronomy
    1 for education
    1 for philosophy
    +1 engineer for UN
    +1 scientist for an academy
    That's a total of 11 great people. I'll check the math later, but I think that requires 3300 GPP. Farming the engineer will probably be the hardest part.

    edit: I forgot the 4 great people we need :blush: Perhaps we can farm 4 great generals instead :lol:

    2. There were some very obvious hints dropped about this, but the solution to the no free religion requirement at the end of the game is espionage. This goes well with the UN as well, since we can change AI civics to butter them up as well. We should not need that much espionage for this, as the chance civic mission is one of the cheaper missions out there. And presumably we will not have to change the civics of our two vassals since we can always bribe them.

    3. Finding that stupid fur. I'm guessing there are multiple continents on this map (otherwise it'd be too easy), so we'll probably want to use caravels + explorers/spies to locate it in the midgame, or maybe even airships. This will let us plan for our endgame. We should definitely send a chariot out early on to scout our starting landmass in any event.

    4. We are on epic speed so moving the starting settler is not a huge loss if we can find something to compensate for it.

    5. If we go for the straight-shot UN (with 1-2 wars during the renaissance), I don't think we'll use many cottages because of their growth times. We should be nearing the end of the game by turn 300 (200 ish on normal speed), and a non-emancipation cottage takes 120 turns to reach town status on epic. Something to keep in mind when we decide on our tile improvement of choice.

    6. We should never enter a defensive pact. If it triggers, WE declare war, which will be problematic.

    7. If we disconnect iron, warriors will not obsolete until we obtain either military science or rifling.

    I think I posted in our SG thread, but I will not have civ access for most of May. I will have internet access though, so I can still spam comments :mischief:
     
  8. shyuhe

    shyuhe Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,062
    Location:
    Gone fishing for the summer
    2S1E of the starting settler is not forested. I don't think 2S is forested either.
     
  9. Silu

    Silu Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    2,964
    Location:
    Finland
    Not sure where you got the 3300GPP, but by my reckoning 11 GPs on Epic requires 10050 GPP :) I'm not sure it would pay off to get 6 for SM Physics Electricity even if we didn't need the 4 extra. Aiming for a truckload of GPs, getting a single Engineer usually isn't that bad since you can just run the Forge Engineer everywhere until you pop one.
     
  10. Mutineer

    Mutineer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,715
    I want to make a few comments:

    1) we know way too little to decide right now which path to take, which GP we need.
    All we know we need 4 at the end and they could be GG's. I would suggest not to close our mind NOW, but keep ourself flexible.

    2) In my experience, if we research Philosophy, Education and liberalism first and NOT trade it to AI, AI take military branch and does not Go into education -liberalism for ever. If we first to Philosophy, education and Liberalism and economics, we very mach increase likelihood for AI to go democracy-chemistry-riffles way and ignore education for ever.

    3) Ai more likely to stay in his religion if he is a founder of one religion and does not have many others. That is make nicely with AI hating each others and slowing down tech rate.

    4) On emperor/epic it is easy to farm workers from one of AI, but for that war declaration is necessary. We do not know how many wars we might need later in the game, soo...
    Do we pass on this opportunity if it exist or take it anyway?
    It could greatly speed up our development, but might cost as a game.

    5) Denying AI useful wanders does slow them down too.

    we have 2 irrigated corns right now and 1 coomerce avalible from turn 1. I do not see mach reason to wander about.
     
  11. mushroomshirt

    mushroomshirt Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2005
    Messages:
    629
    Location:
    Northern CA, USA
    I think I got it. Here is the save and updated screenshot.

     

    Attached Files:

  12. shyuhe

    shyuhe Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,062
    Location:
    Gone fishing for the summer
    I did my estimate from normal speed calculations :lol: I forgot they start at 150 on epic. So if we divide your number by two for philosophical, we get 5,025 GPP. A large but manageable number. We can also save the great people we get from music, economics, and physics - that's three of the four require great people right there. Although we may have to use one for a golden age at some point to crank out more.

    This is true - but I just wanted to throw out the numbers in case we do decide to go the route of farming all the scientists we need.

    Grabbing the philosophy religion really stops the AI from going the liberalism route. Since we'll likely want pacifism anyways at some point in the midgame, I think it's well worth a bulb (for the religion).

    The one thing we have to be careful of are the AI swapping out of a religious civic near the end of the game. If they don't have liberalism or the Paya, this is a non-issue and they will likely be in a state religion.

    I hadn't thought of this. While it would speed us up, I think it's very risky unless we know where the four necessary resource tiles are. I wouldn't declare war until we've found at least one source each.

    I don't want to wonder hog too much - do we want to consider the oracle at all? We start with mysticism and with fast workers, we can chop forests very quickly.

    I'm inclined to settle in place, as with double irrigated corn, we can crank out settlers like there's no tomorrow.
     
  13. babybluepants

    babybluepants Chieftain GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,825
    Location:
    Vancouver
    I was actually gonna suggest building a couple of scouts and couple of exploring WB's. Don't think I've ever built a scout before in my Civ career. :lol: If I was gonna make this map interesting, I'd put a critical resource or two within reach of good early scouting, followed by an early settler gambit. The game won't be so interesting if resource location is such that it forces gameplay (namely, two of them on a post-Astro continent, held by the two AI we're allowed to DOW).

    The one thing we should have learned from the last SGOTM is that we need to discover as much as we can about the game/map setup as early as possible, if we wanna stay competitive. MW killed everyone by simply trading for Gandhi's map on t1, and X focussed almost all of their efforts early on getting caravels out, meeting AIs and repeatedly trading maps to achieve circumnavigation. This variant simply begs for early investment in scouting, because of the resource importance.

    Good point. Not that we'd necessarily enter one, but it's something to keep in the back of our minds.

    Not worried about this one at all, as we'll almost certainly build and retain 4+ warriors very early in the game.

    In-place probably has a strategic resource. I still kinda think we should settle on the PH. It gains +1hpt early and, by the looks of it, quite a few river tiles. Unfortunately, the warrior can't reveal anything of any significance this turn... Since it's epic, I'd just move the settler onto the PH, and see what we find. DS has traditionally placed interesting stuff in the immediate surroundings in GOTMs.

    On Emperor epic, with Gandhi, not building the Oracle seems criminal to me. We'd have to consider it more carefully once we know more. COL is obvious, CS requires some early commerce. With one gold, I took CS in the 1300's in my one test, but without gold/gems it's not doable, IMHO.

    To be continued...
     
  14. babybluepants

    babybluepants Chieftain GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,825
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Given that both DS and Erkon are fairly accomplished gotm mapmakers (Erkon also a multi-epthathlete), I would assume that they won't give us two alternative VC's if one lacks competitive edge. We already know they did that to a certain extent, by selecting Gandhi, who is the single fastest culture leader but not necessarily the fastest diplo leader.

    Seems everyone considers UN much faster than culture. I wouldn't say it's necessarily faster, but, without knowing anything about the map, it's certainly much safer. It doesn't require a full commitment to a strategy until fairly late. IMHO, the speed of a culture victory depends too much on map setup for us to evaluate before some exploration. We'd need:
    • Excellent GP farm (something like +18f).
    • Two excellent LC's, with 6+ riverside towns and enough production to plow through 2-3 world wonders and 3-4 cathedrals.
    • Neighbors that are relatively easy to control on the diplo front (namely, convenient religion spread and fave civics, resource trade opportunities...)
    • (Variant) - we need to secure the fur peacefully, or by military means pre-Astro.
    The first three of those can be known before the two VC's diverge in a significant way (say, 1000-ish BC, due to the necessity of the Lit-Music beeline, some early wonder builds, as well as general slowdown in expansion).

    The resource location is very tricky, though. If we really need to wage war on another continent post-Astro, then I fail to see how culture can possibly compete. By the time we get to Astro and send an army over to deal with it, we'd be 2-3 techs from Mass Media.

    The one thing that occurred to me in playing through a test game last week, is that fur often appears in really crappy tundra/ice locations. I managed to get a settler onto a galleon before the AI's on the other continent took all the crap land.
     
  15. babybluepants

    babybluepants Chieftain GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,825
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Sorry to keep spamming, boys. :mischief: There's just too much to cover here...
    Not really. You have to account for Pacifism and NE. And, I'm not sure I have any thoughts about total numbers like that. What it really depends on is whether we choose to run Caste for extended stretches or not. For a game like this on Emp, with SPI, I'd always be more inclined to let Caste/Pac dominate and just do short focussed bursts of Slavery/OR.

    I just don't see how we can afford this, given the 2-penalty rule. It's way too risky.
     
  16. shyuhe

    shyuhe Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,062
    Location:
    Gone fishing for the summer
    The PH will give us a faster worker and access to corn - we give up the one blank square that has some special in it. The only long-term worry I have about moving 1SE is that we may end up lacking hills in our capital - in which case we may just have to convert it into a GP farm instead (which is fine). So I'm ok with moving on to the hill before deciding where to settle - other thoughts?

    About culture - it's faster if you straight shot it, but the big problem I see is whether you can get the necessary resources playing (essentially) peacefully. Hence my inclination to plan more for a UN victory here since it allows for more flexibility.

    And yes, we definitely need to scout better in this game :) The other lesson I learned from SGOTM 10 is that we should take the 10-15 minutes it takes to plan out our GP generation.

    edit: I'd pass on a CS oracle on emperor. Without a commerce tile, it's way too luck dependent for an SGOTM.
     
  17. Mutineer

    Mutineer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,715
    There are 2 reasons I do not want to move on hill.

    1) why settling on hill give +1 hammer/turn, it would prevent as from working corn until border expand, meaning -1 commerce.

    2) It is possible to have cooper or some other resource on hill. There not that many non forested ties visible.
     
  18. babybluepants

    babybluepants Chieftain GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,825
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Border pop's in 5t. That's 5 total commerce, in exchange for 4 food from hooking up corn faster. Not to mention the +1hpt all game. Shouldn't even be a consideration, IMHO.

    The second point's valid, but I still prefer the hill. Don't mind city on copper so much. We'll just have to avoid Hunting for a while.
     
  19. Mutineer

    Mutineer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,715
    birder pop on turn 8.
     
  20. babybluepants

    babybluepants Chieftain GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,825
    Location:
    Vancouver
    :lol: Oh, yeah... Stupid epic speed. I never know any of the numbers involved.
    The same reasoning should hold, I'd think. 8c versus worker 4t (right?) sooner - so 12 food.
    Let's see what others think about this in-place / PH issue maybe. Seems like we have one for each so far, with our mighty captain largely ambivalent. :D
     

Share This Page