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SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 20, 2010.

  1. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Chieftain

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    @dingding:

    food in Pata: In the real game we're more behind, so getting to 20pop is harder. I'm running through it one more time tomorrow, and will try to work less specialists in Pata pre-Pacifism to gain more GPP/specialist (= more food).
     
  2. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    My latest test:

    It went pretty similar to dingding's

    -needed 5 cities to capitulate Mehmed (dates almost the same). I didn't draft much either so maybe it could indeed be done faster.

    -came up short of 20 pop in Pataliputra (11 food so about 30 in actual game) -> even while delaying the GP. We need a plan to get it to size 20 in time.

    -Mass Media in 860AD (used a lot of specialists while starving cities) [so start UN in 870AD] -> win 970AD (980AD in my game because of food problem)

    -It's a lot easier to get another GP from Delhi rather than Madras. Instead, we should plan to use Madras to simply run Merchants to keep the slider high.

    I'll try once more while focusing on growing Pataliputra to size 20 as well.
    (Maybe tomorrow).

    I had 3000+ points when I won.
     
  3. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    I'm short of time to run any test recently. However you guys tests tell all.:lol:

    @kossin
    If you can finish UN in 870AD, then election 880AD, doesn't the diplomatic victory vote come up 5 turns later? If there are other conditions uncompleted in time, we can always delay and schedule the UN to make the victory 5 turns after the completion of UN.

    What if Zhou includes FUR in BFC? With a few cottages, it can pay for itself with those cottages and will gain after CH whipped. Creating a colony enable 2 trade routes. I won't raze those cities.

    About the war. No need to defend new captured cities, we can advance the SOD as fast as possible and let our reinforcements to deal with Meh's reinforcements.

    @bugg123

    If we don't need 3rd GA, then CS is no need. Better to let Cordoba build forge as it can contribute quite a few units including WEs.

    Some thoughts come up.

    1. If Izzy cancels OB with Meh, will we still has the trade routes from Meh, if so, then we definitely want to do this. If not, we can still do this since this only cost us 9C, but cost Meh 36C. We should try to cripple Meh's commerce as much as possible. Let Zara do the same.

    2. I think Madrid is better to produce WEs, as the only menace from Meh is knight.

    3. I think it's better to let Justinian makes peace with Toku a few turns later to prevent Toku making good progress in the war. We want Justinian to be the UN opponent.
     
  4. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    UN vote is much longer on epic speed which is why.

    If Fur is in the BFC of Zhou then of course we keep it.
    The odds are about 0 IMO as I said earlier that is a natural barb city... It's more likely further south or west.

    2 trade routes is pretty negligible and worth like 2C... We save hammers just razing them and it makes vassaling Meh easier.
    The hammers saved spreading a religion there are worth more than the commerce generated. We can't gamble on autospread.

    Closing borders with Meh: I had though about it but then we can't scout his cities. In the test game he never really mounts a SoD so I guess we don't really need it.
     
  5. dingding

    dingding Chieftain

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    @ kossin:

    Why raze the barbarian cities? I don't see a problem to send an extra HM there.

    I liberated Meh's and Izzy's cities to a new AI in my test game, which created a new AI running NSR. I think it would be workable to release Meh's cities to him at the turn of UN vote. There is no risk that we will lose his vote.

    @ Bugg:

    Since Pata needs even more food in the real game to reach 20p in time. I suggest about the GP plan:

    1) Let Pata focus on growth instead of popping GP. Whip a harbor when the health becomes a problem. When it hits 20p, turns pops into spe to help research.
    2) Delhi handle the GP which is supposed to be born in Pata. Farm some tiles in Delhi and starve it if necessary.
    3) Madras makes the GP as planned. That would be easier than in the last test because Pata won't produce a GP before it.

    In my last test game, I had 5 GP on the fur. I think we can ignore the GP production in Pata - the GG can be transported on the island wherever it is born at a matter of fact. I said make one more GP in Delhi at the second point above, just in case...
     
  6. dingding

    dingding Chieftain

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    I had 3200+ points when I won.
    I said 2500+ because score would be discounted in the mod. I guess there is a discount of 20%.
     
  7. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Chieftain

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    @all

    Played through one last time (this time only with 1xbulb on Physics). The 1xbulb lead to running out of money (starting Sci-Met on T212), delaying victory to 1040AD. Started the war later than dingding T227 I think, but had Meh cap in 10 turns by 910AD.

    Had no real problem bending Meh (only needed to take 3 cities and 3x his power (which was easily achieved by spamming WE and a bit of drafting (not much in my case) Had 2x4 Airships too I guess).

    Getting Pati to Size 22-23 by 900AD this time, so that's probably covered as well. Harbor will build naturally in time for health problems if we just go right for that after Market.


    If we're not 2xbulbing Physics via natural GS from Delhi , 2 things: We won't get another GS for Electricity later (since we're now not using Pata for that) and we won't have a problem with 4 GreatPersons by fur (even without the GG we may or may not get.. I didn't in my war).

    So if anyone is interested, or care to do more tests (preferrably with end-dates and only 1 GS for Physics), I have included the T212 save here (which is the turn I end WBing to get most stuff on par with the actual game). I don't know if we want to start 100% tech this turn or on T214.

    I'm also not 100% sure how I want to scout out Meh. It's probably enough to send mace up east, and bring the chariot over to scout the west/center. Should be done by about T222, only not covering the northernmost tundra-cities.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Chieftain

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    And the real final runthrough from T212 (Starting Sci-Met T214). Still running out of Money for MM, so a bit behind on research lead to a 1020AD finish with only 1xbulb on Physics.

    Mehmed bent over quickly this time (only 2 cities captured with no losses and mass-spam of WE near the end). He actually capped 870AD. So that made the whole timing of UN a lot easier :)

    If we get another GS to bulb physics with, we're probably saving a few turns overall, but with more trouble getting the required GP to FUR.

    My final concern then is how to best use Merchants all over our empire (when and where) to get to MM quicker with just 1 bulb. Any input and ideas on that would be good :)
     
  9. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    Releasing an AI is a pain if we get a Free Religion lover.
    It isn't necessary to keep them for research or votes... So why keep them?
    All we need is a city by fur, some roads and a fort.

    I can run another test tonight with only 1 bulb.

    dingding's GP plan is also what I had in mind to secure size 20 Patali.
     
  10. dingding

    dingding Chieftain

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    I tried a sloppy test from 490AD. Finished MM in 880AD with 2 bulbs, 3~4 turns later if 1 bulb.

    I think Bugg's save at 1415# is pretty nice. Last suggestions:

    1) Let Delhi focus on GP production instead of commerce/beaker. You can turn 1-2 extra pops to be scientists to increase the chance of getting a GS, even with starvation, even with 1~2 turns of delay of Taj.

    2) Madras can contribute to the second GP, just let it grow and starve it.

    3) Remember about the GP: GG can be transported on the island on time wherever it is born; Delhi can easily starve one more GP if needed. It's not the main problem.

    The date of MM is not the main issue either. It depends largely how many GS can be used to bulb Physics, instead of a bit micro.

    The top priority is the WAR PLAN, of which we don't have another option but to succeed.

    Go ahead and good luck!
     
  11. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Chieftain

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    @kossin:

    I'm not sure why you worry about Free Religion lovers? It's not like the barb-colony will ever get to Liberalism. I don't see a need for a colony in Meh land, if that's the colony you're referring to.

    @dingding:
    Yeah.. hiring a few more scientists in Delhi can't hurt(I'm not testing that, just doing it if everyone aggrees).

    As for the final push for Physics (Starting with Sci-met). We could hit mass-marchants in most cities not contributing any GPerson as soon as we hit CS (which I haven't been doing). Saves a lot of gold (about 100gpt), and could reduce research time by 1-2 turns (since the real game also has about 300beakers more than the testgame). I'm hoping kossin's test could give some guidance on that matter :)

    I should at least start hiring specialists T215 (to get max effect untill we hit Physics) unless we hit a GS in Delhi, then I think T214.

    I'm running with merchants. If scientists are better in certain spots, I'd like to know why.
     
  12. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    @Bugg123

    Have you decided how to use the next GP from Delhi if it's other type than GS? Also your plan of GP production?

    Edit: sci or merchant? depends on the situation, in Delhi, scientists for sure. In other cities, merchants are generally better, but there's exceptions. When running scientists can speed up research by 1 turn or pumping a GS from Pat or Madras (can we?).

    @kossin

    Zhou has the possibility to have FUR in BFC since it has a few tundra tiles. Of course, if not, we can always liberate it as well.
     
  13. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    @Bugg
    Any created colony inherits ALL our techs, including Liberalism -> Free Religion

    I will test once again tomorrow to add some pointers regarding research etc as I did it.

    @Duckweed
    Yes it could be in Zhou BFC but I think odds are about 0%.
    Anyway we will know with the spy soon.
    I just don't see any advantage of keeping those cities, show me some convincing math or something as it just doesn't seem advantageous with the extra upkeep, no need for happiness, lousy commerce for a few turns, reduced average power in the game, more hammers for spreading religion and maybe dealing with Free Religion problems at a very bad time.

    Finally, how about adding a fort instead of a city? We can save the settler for the fur in case it is not in any BFCs over there?
     
  14. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Chieftain

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    @kossin:
    We don't have liberalism at the time we liberate the barb cities (if everything works out according to plan), so it can't inherit it.
    Spreading a religion to the barb continent could be an issue, but Gondar can probably produce a BM while HMs are in transit elsewhere, so it shouldn't be a problem.
    We're probably capturing 2-3 workers from the barbs, though, so having them build a fort is ok. However, if we need another settler, having Zhou whip one isn't much of a problem either.

    @duckweed:
    Good question:
    We "risk" getting too many GreatPersons if the next is not a GS.

    It may not be optimal, but if the next GP in Delhi is anything other than a GS, my plan is to keep it for FUR.

    GP Production (no GS) : Delhi supplies 2, Madras supplies 1 + 1-2GG = 4-5
    GP Production (with GS): Delhi supplies 2 or 3 (including GS), Madras supplies 1 + 1-2 GG = 4.

    I don't think Pat produces any GP in the current plan (to make sure it grows), as it's not needed.
     
  15. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Chieftain

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    @duckweed:

    You got me thinking. (usually bad news :)).

    Concerning GPP. We really should be able to 2xbulb electricity regardless. Delhi should produce a GS next (if the first one isn't a GS), and it will do so before we research Electricity anyways.

    We also should not run out of money at any point from running mass-merchants. So we should be able to reach MM in the 870-890 range regardless.

    I suppose we should also be pretty liberal in trading most techs for any kind of gold from here out.

    So... I gotta do one more test as well (with mass assigning of specs) starting research Sci-Met T212 (214 results in about 890 MM for me).

    We still don't have a problem reaching the required GP on FUR (probably with 1 to spare if we get a GG in time, meaning we can 2x bulb Phy if possible AND 2xbulb Electricity).

    @kossin:
    I dont know how I feel about the whole barb continent.

    I mean if we whip a CH in FUR city, our cost is about 10g max (compared to about 15 for a newly settled city with no CH). We have no colonial maintenance for the liberated barb-cities, and some income (6gold in my testing). So there's no real reason not to keep the cities except for the power-issue.

    Ofcourse, that's the wildcard. In my tests it hasn't been a problem (mass WE, drafting maces if necessary to reach 3x).

    EDIT: (random thought) I suppose one advantage of keeping all cities down there is that we effectively spawnbust the area at no extra cost.
     
  16. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    @ Coastal fort vs coastal city :
    A Fort would work nicely, yes. I don't see the need to raze Devil's Gate (kinda developped land, no ?), though, but... Be it if need be.
    Obvious advantage if we keep Devil's Gate is that we can draft that many pop more after the UN is complete... --> Would ease the vassaling of Mehmed. Maybe unneeded, but more secure.


    @ Missionaries :
    We can gift Zara/Mehmed some of the missionaries we send them, so they "auto-spread" and we avoid the maintenance cost. It will allow us to build them faster (for Mehmed, maybe after we have spread religion to small cities with no religion at all).


    @ Bend Mehmed in 10 turns or he won't vote for us in the 1st election (Kossin) :
    Is that certain ? I know we can annoy a vassal to hell but I thought his vote for AP/UN was unconditionnal...
    10 turns is really little. What DingDing said about drafting AFTER the UN is complete sounds good.


    @ Whip overflows and building wealth :
    (can't see the updated plan ; I guess it's pretty solid, though) Are we using the overflows now ? In any way at all (missionary, garrison, Parthenon, even WE).
    Do we gamble to max out the hammers we put into the Parthenon ?


    @ Testruns :
    We found out some time ago that running 60 turns test runs was confusing :)p)... Maybe we should find the first "point of uncertainty" and run the set till there.
    Say... To the next great scientist we hope to produce.
    I really don't feel like taking 3 hours to test this game to win or lose 5 turns... :blush: Sorry. Not sure how long it takes you to run through this. I suspect it may be less. I appreciate the enlightened discussion your tests provide, though.
    EDIT : Errr... Say 2 hours for 30 turns...
     
  17. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    Good point about Liberalism.

    Still, I don't see the benefits of liberating it.
    You only gave 1 argument about FR.
    1 less turn of Draft means more research.
    Will run a test or two in a few hours.

    @BIC
    Simple enough, place the troops outside our territory and cloe borders with Meh to simulate war. We only need to test research and builds then.

    About next GP:

    GM makes trade mission
    GS bulb
    Anything else can be settled rather than wasted. Won't be much but better than nothing.

    Finally, let Agras and Lahore grow (don't whip anything) so we can draft there a bunch of times before gifting to Saladin.
     
  18. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Chieftain

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    @BIC:

    The question is not really wether to keep devil's gate ourselves or not. It's raze it or liberate it. I kind of prefer keeping it, but it's not important to me.

    Missionaries: We're really only spreading to one Meh and one colony city far away. Spreading to one Zar city really close too if needed.

    Bending Meh: It's more a question of "safety" I guess... the sooner he bends, the sooner we know when we're winning.

    Whip overflows: I don't really think we need the extra few cash from overflowing a few cities into Parthenon. Better to save from the few cities in question (via Wealth) and overflow into WE later imo.

    Testruns: We're not really testing 60 turns, though (more like 25-30) :) Testing shows it's probably not that important what GPerson comes next in terms of end dates, so there's no real point in playing to the GS (or not). We're just ~2 turnsets away from the end (hopefully), and they're kind of connected, so it makes sense to run through them, I think. It really doesn't take 5 hours either (play like kossin suggests) :)
     
  19. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Chieftain

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    @kossin:
    Agra is whipping a Uni in current plan, but I guess it's not that important at this stage...

    EDIT: Ok, I guess for the next GP, if we're 100% sure we're getting enough to bring 4 to FUR (I'm just trying to be a bit conservative :))

    About GP: Delhi produces 3 more, Madras 1, 1 from Physics and we have 1 GG and 1 GS (= 7) for sure. So using 3 should be ok (3x bulb physics/Electricity). If the next one isn't a GS and we don't get another GG (due to short war or whatever) -> it's prudent to save the non-GS one.

    About Liberating: It's not important to me. Positives of liberating = no fogbusting, a bit extra commerce, ability to whip/draft from Zhou, no need for a fort. Negatives: Slightly less power, need to spread a religion, extra settler.
     
  20. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    Also more upkeep.
    I don't have numbers handy but another vassal=
    more upkeep.

    Edit: we should get Archery at some point in the war to raise our power too.
     

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