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SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 20, 2010.

  1. dingding

    dingding Chieftain

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    I don't think vassaling Saladin is a problem of necessity, but more a problem of "we can do it".

    The settler is half built anyway. It won't delay the victory, and will probably accelerate it, with a free Engineering.
     
  2. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    I agree that it isn't a necessity, but more of an insurance policy that will help win without fearing demands too much.

    I forgot to check if we'll be able to bribe Saladin against Mehmed... He's Pleased and Meh is WE so I guess it should work...
     
  3. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Chieftain

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    Not prepared to post a final plan yet, but looks ok.

    Troop movement is a bit more sketchy if we're now sending a settler via Galleon-bridge to Just/Toku land. But should work out ok for an early war on Meh regardless.

    I kind of like to take Sal on as a vassal prior to starting the Meh war to get ENgineering, but it's not like we absolutely have to do it untill way towards the end of war prep.

    If the turnset is now untill T221 I'd like to know where you want what troops kossin, in case you want to start the war asap, that's nice to know.

    I know duckweed isn't too pleased with vassaling Sal, but at the same time it seems like it is just extra safety in doing so, so I like the idea. (We can probably do without, but why not just do it... it doesn't cost us anything much, and we're extra safe for UN. It also doesn't seem to affect our research-rate .. we should get to MM around 835AD currently, and if we can bend Meh + produce the GG in time, we're good to go. We should know all that by the time MM is complete, probably, if we have to delay a bit or not). The question is when to settle (I'm assuming asap to not lose spots), and when to take on Sal.
     
  4. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    Free Engineering should help late troops catch up faster due to the disrupting of galley bridge to ship the settler. Seeing as Mehmed's cities are far apart and that his culture isn't likely very strong, it will also make movement during the war faster.

    As for troops:
    They should mass inside Izzy's culture, as there is no upkeep inside our vassals' territory.
    The stack heading west should be 2S2E of Ankara (1W of the Iron).
    The stack heading east should be on the Dye NE of Santiago -> it would be nice to have workers road the jungle to the NE here to allow movement in 1 turn to save some upkeep gold.

    4 Airships in Toledo, 4 in Santiago and as many possible in Estrucan (up north).

    War plan would be similar to the effect of:
    Major stack goes west: Ankara>Erdine>Istanbul
    Smaller stack goes east: Gaziantep>Diyarbakir>Istanbul (if needed)

    That should be more than enough to capitulate Mehmed.
     
  5. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Chieftain

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    Allright:

    Proposed plan:

    Spoiler :


    Trades:
    Dye to Toku for 1
    Marble to Just for 1

    Trade maps with Justin to be on the safe side

    Put Zara on Guilds

    Run Caravel with HMs to Barb-island

    Assemble troops between SW Santiago. Leaving over T221 should then let you whip Airships and move

    troops into position the way you want it.


    T214:
    Research 100%

    Units:
    Hindu Spreads in Barcelona
    HM moves back to Madrid (No need to spread Hindu to Meh now).
    Take Barb-Gate
    Set up 3 Galleons So we can move to Stone near Just (if this is what we want).

    Workers:
    Chop more around Madrid
    Workers moves back west towards silver (completing road Delhi->Aksoum on the way)
    or farms around Aksoum first. Will see how many workers we get from barbs. We want to complete the

    fort ASAP.

    Cities:
    Vijay->HA
    Agra->Whip Uni (OVerflow to Parth, work food untill size 4)
    Bombay->Wealth
    Gondar->Wealth
    Cordoba->Wealth
    Madrid->Whip CH
    Lali->Whip Settler
    Aksoum->Whip CH
    Barcelona -> Whip CH
    Pati -> Assign Engineer to speed up Harbor (Work all 3f)
    Delhi -> Observatory

    Revolution->Pacifism+CS
    Set up specialists

    Specs:
    Madras 8M (work lake*2 and fish)
    Dehli 8S (removing Silver, mine, mature cottage(?) and unmature cottages+farm
    Vijay 4M (Working 4f, Cow, Marble, horse)
    Calc 5M
    Banga 6M

    T215:

    Workers:
    Chop near Madrid
    Farm Near Pati
    Build fort 2E1N Gate


    Cities:
    Agra -> Parthenon
    Madras -> Wealth
    Vijay->HA
    Bombay->Wealth
    Calc->Wealth
    Cordoba->Wealth
    Madrid->WE
    Gondar->Wealth
    Lali->Warrior
    Aksoum->Wealth
    Barcelona -> Culture (in 1t if it doesn't shrink)



    T216:

    Research 100% on Physics (1x bulb now)

    Units: Capture Fur-city this turn or next (depening on garrison).
    Ship settler towards Just, with chariot for scouting Meh


    Cities:
    Vijay->HA
    Gondar->Wealth
    Lali->Wealth
    Madrid->WE
    Agra -> Wealth (work 1 gold)
    Barcelona -> WE


    Specs:
    Varan 3 Merc
    Dehli 7S (Work cottage)

    T217:

    Workers:
    Chop Madrid

    Bombay->Wealth
    Lali->Wealth
    Vijay->HA
    Barcelona->WE
    Madrid -> WE

    T218:

    Units:
    Land settler near Just (on stone), or we land near Iron and later gift to Toku?

    Cities:
    Dehli 6 GS (work Silver)
    Vijay -> HA
    Agra -> WOrk both Gold. (We're not gifting them anymore, are we? No need to set up as draft-site

    then...)

    T219:

    Units:
    Settle Madurai near Just (Culture)

    Cities:
    Madurai -> Culture

    T220:

    Cities:
    Dehli -> Work cottage over Silver (if needed not to shrink)

    T221:
    Save, upload and report



    Questions:
    1. Where to send settler (are we ok with building a settler)
    2. When do we vassal Saladin (right away?)
    3. Do we gift the Toku/Just city? (no?)

    EDIT: I suppose it's possible we get to Physics T220 in the real game. Do I need to assign more scientists a bit all over to make sure? (should be ok on the last turn only). If we do I'll queue Airships in : Lahore, Banga, Vijay, Varan, Calcutta, Hyder, Aksoum, Gondar, Cordoba, Madrid, Barcelona (so 11 total available deployed for war T223).

    Save attached below
     

    Attached Files:

  6. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    Don't forget, every turn:
    grab gold from Justinian-Toku-Saladin-Izzy-Zara with techs

    Some issues:

    Madras has 39 food in store, using 8 specialists gives -7F/turn so you'll be out of food in 5 turns (6th turn = shrink). We have to maximize the number of specialists turns under Pacifism+Golden Age. I am trying to come up with a long-term plan to achieve the needed GPP for this city (we won't have trouble in Delhi at all).

    Patali: I prefer working the plains tile (and farm it) to the Engineer to store more food. I would like this city to hit size 21 to whip UN while in Pacifism to allow easier GPP production in Madras.

    We can allow the fort to be delayed on Fur island (there should be 3 workers there). Spare workers by Aksum should go help chop Madrid and make a road to attack eastern Mehmed cities.
    I am slightly worried about barb spawns possibility on the Fur Island (south west region and north east before Devilsgate comes out of revolt), move the GG/HMs to that area with the Caravel maybe?

    T214
    We don't need the second silver to be hooked up. (send workers to Madrid after finishing road network). Also no need for Farm in Aksum.

    The settler should head to Justinian. The galleon is needed at home so worst comes to worst we have the settler walk the rest of the way to see if it's available.

    Madras: I think we should use the deer instead of a lake. We really need every inch of food here.

    ***EDIT: whipping 3 pops into a CH seems a bit excessive in Aksum. [42 fewer hammers in test game] We can finish it in 6~7 turns after while keeping the 3 citizens on good tiles.

    T215
    Duckweed mentioned Moai for OF in Agra.
    I suppose the Aksum OF will be kept for Airships?

    Not really important but you mixed up W with E about fort location on Fur island.

    T216
    Can you delay the Physics bulb ~3 turns [t219]? Every pop we grow adds to the beakers we gain.

    T219
    I guess we need to figure whether Saladin will break free from us if we don't have 3 cities anymore on his landmass. If no... then it's easy to give it away right after accepting vassalization.

    T221
    ptgppg (Pray to gpp gods) for a GS :)
     
  7. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    Patali test

    Patali will reach size 21 on t228 (the earliest we can get Mass media) IF we work the farmed plains tile and not the Engineer. On t227 it's at +20 food and 70/90 so you can see that we can't spare any food whatsoever.

    I still need to run another test for Madras concerning GPP.
    For now civics change look like: (assuming 3GS bulb of Electricity)

    t214 Caste+Pacifism
    t222 (1 turn after we get Physics) Slavery
    t228 Caste (after whipping UN)
    t23x Theology (if we don't/can't vassal Saladin - after Delhi's GP)
     
  8. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    I'm not interested in the plan of vassalling Saladin since I don't see any convincing reason.

    I have never seen a pleased AI demanding cash, have you? Refusing Theo gives -1 and we still have enough to get the vote (Moreover we will be switching civic all the time so the chance is close to 0). I don't understand how getting the tech of Engineer will speedup the final victory. Isn't the bottleneck research and GP? I don't like to do anything unnecessary in the game. I feel it the same as building a wall in Delhi. The effort only sacrifice the yield of citizens and the usage of navies for nothing necessary.

    However, as I mentioned many times, all these are small issues even we go for a suboptimal way atm. Building wall in every city will affect the game result, but building 1 wall probably won't. I'll keep my opinion and not tangle with it as most of you are excited with this fancy plan even it's NOT 100% to succeed.

    I'll be busy in the next 2 weeks and might not be able to post often. Move on when you feel ready to go and don't need to wait for my response. Hopefully I see the winning screenshot soon.:)
     
  9. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    I understand the feeling of not wanting a vassal for 2 pops + disrupting troop movement.

    As I said, I feel slightly uneasy with being borderline w/ Saladin to get enough Diplo for UN vote -> that's what's driving me to push for this. Nothing else - engineering is just an added perk to make up the lost time moving troops.

    As soon as I can try 1 more test to verify GPP situation in Madras, I think we can finish the game in under 1 week.
     
  10. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Chieftain

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    Good work on testing, kossin.

    Will await your final test and revise plan tomorrow. Hopefully my turns work out, and you can just keep going according to your tests.

    @duckweed:

    You're right it probably doesn't matter at this point. We'll hopefully be done shortly.
     
  11. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    I'm 90% certain the GPP situation will be fine in Madras with Patali able to grow to size 21 but I will try a test tonight to confirm it (along with some suggestions going from t214-t221).
     
  12. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    Alright here is.

    t214
    Delhi is fine as you did it. I will add some notes later on that you didn't write down in the plan (or simply forgot).
    Patali 3FW finish farm 2N1W of Patali
    Patali 1FW finishes farm SE of Patali
    Patali 1FW roads 2N1W of Patali (this is very important for worker movement!!!)
    Patali: either check it every turn for no assigned spec or click on auto+emphasize food (you should check every turn anyway)
    Madras 8 Merchants (Lake, deer, fish)

    t215
    Patali 1FW finishes road 2N1W
    Patali 4FW go to plains tile and farm

    t216
    Patali 4FW finish plains farm and assign coast -> plains (auto governor should do it by himself)
    Patali 1FW goes to 1SE Patali and roads (also important for worker movement)

    t217
    Patali 4FW go 1NW and farm (the roaded grassland)

    t218
    Patali 4FW finish farm (coast->farm)
    Patali 1FW finishes road

    t219
    Delhi 5 scientists (farm+cottage or it starves)
    Patali 4FW go to 2S1E of Patali and farm (last farm here)
    Madras 7 Merchants (->lake tile or it starves)
    Bulb 1GS on Physics this turn to be safe

    t220
    Delhi 4 scientists (silver)
    Patali 4FW finish last farm (assign farm)
    Madras 11 Merchants (starves as we only need 9 pop to run the 5 slots of specialists available under Slavery)

    t221
    Physics in
    Delhi GP in (hopefully GS) /// I haven't exactly determined what to do with Delhi from this point on but it shouldn't be too hard
    Patali (coast->Engineer to finish Harbor)
    Madras 10 Merchants [starve]

    t222
    Revolt to Slavery
    Patali (engineer->coast)
    Madras 5 specs until t228

    t223-t227
    Nothing changes really

    t228
    Mass Media in
    Rush UN in Patali, whip UN
    Revolt to Caste
    Madras: 1200/1500 gpp assigns 9 Merchants (...then 8-7-6)

    ...

    t232
    Madras GP born
    Delhi max specialists

    ...

    t234
    Delhi GP born
    Pair with Madras GP to 5-galleon bridge towards Fur Island fort

    t235-t236
    Walk last 2 GPs on Fur

    t237
    Smoke Cigar

    t238 win
     
  13. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Hi guys,

    Sorry for not posting in the previous days. This is summer and there has been a lot of unexpected non stop funtime...
    I'm affraid it will still last a week or two. It won't be non stop, of course, but I don't think I'll have the energy to delve into the game. So... Count me out for voting purposes and... also for discussions, I guess.

    Things seem to go well, though. So : well done !
    I'll catch up when I'll have time, but most probably the game will be done by then.

    BIC.
     
  14. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Chieftain

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    @kossin:

    Ok.. I altered the plan to reflect your tests. Looks like overall troop movement will be a couple of turns delayed to the front compared to not settling near Just (So Meh war starts a few turns later, right?)

    Are you sure you have enough gold to complete MM at @100% all the way running slavery longer? What kind of trade-values are you assuming to get the needed gold?

    Also, final questions not answered :

    When to take on Sal as Vassal (There are maintenance costs involved, but I don't know exactly how much in taking on Vassals. At the same time we do want Engineering to help out troop movement)

    and

    To gift or not to gift the city (and when).

    Peacevassals can in theory break free every 10 turns, I think. As our power is growing throughout here, I don't know how likely that is, really. If we take him on ASAP (to gain Engineering benefits, and to liberate the city), he has 1 chance to break free before it's over. I'm not sure the timing matters anyhow, So I vote for ASAP. He'll allways have 1 chance to break free before UN elections, and we'll allways want Engineering to move troops. EDIT: We could probably delay gifting the city by 10 turns (to avoid the whole land-target issue), it'll cost us in excess of 200g, and it'll boost our research somewhat, so it's not all bad. Maybe taking on Sal could also allow us to trade for Meh's gold?)

    This plan all rests on getting the last GG as well, I suppose, but that's hopefully not going to be an issue. The issue may be to get the GG to Fur since we also need a Galleon Bridge to transport the final 2 GP to FUR.

    Plan:

    Spoiler :

    Trades:
    Dye to Toku for 1
    Marble to Just for 1

    Trade maps with Justin to be on the safe side

    Put Zara on Guilds

    Run Caravel with HMs/GG to Barb-island

    Assemble troops SW Santiago. Leaving over T221 should then let you whip Airships and move

    troops into position the way you want it.

    Every turn : Check for gold-trades.

    T214:
    Research 100%

    Units:
    Hindu Spreads in Barcelona
    HM moves back to Madrid (No need to spread Hindu to Meh now).
    Take Barb-Gate
    Set up 3 Galleons So we can move to Stone near Just.
    Send one shipment of troops via galley bridge
    Run Caravel towards Madrid to pick up GG/HM

    Workers:
    Chop more around Madrid
    Pati : Finish farm SE and Farm 2N1W. Road 2N1E (Welcome to the let's mix up E and W club, kossin :))

    Workers near Aksoum finishes Road from Dehli then moves for Madrid

    Cities:
    Vijay->HA
    Agra->Whip Uni (OVerflow to Parth, work food untill size 4)
    Bombay->Wealth
    Gondar->Wealth
    Cordoba->Wealth
    Madrid->Whip CH
    Lali->Whip Settler
    Aksoum->Continue CH, no whip
    Barcelona -> Whip CH
    Pati -> Work foods (no engineer)
    Delhi -> Observatory
    Varan -> Wealth

    Revolution->Pacifism+CS
    Set up specialists

    Specs:
    Madras 8M (work lake, deer and fish)
    Dehli 8S (removing Silver, mine, mature cottage(?) and unmature cottages+farm
    Vijay 4M (Working Cow, Marble, horse)
    Calc 5M
    Banga 6M (Work horse)

    T215:

    Workers:
    Chop near Madrid
    1 FW Finish road
    4 FW Farms Plains
    Build fort 2W1N Gate

    Units: Mace that captured Gate Fogbusts 1N2E


    Cities:
    Agra -> Parthenon (Do we need to delay Moai in Hyder for 8 overflow from Uni in Agra?)
    Madras -> Wealth
    Vijay->HA
    Bombay->Wealth
    Calc->Wealth
    Cordoba->Wealth
    Madrid->WE
    Gondar->Wealth
    Lali->Warrior
    Aksoum->Wealth
    Barcelona -> Culture (in 1t if it doesn't shrink)



    T216:

    Research 100% on Physics

    Units: Capture Fur-city this turn or next (depening on garrison).
    Ship settler towards Just, with chariot for scouting Meh. Pick Up HM/GG from Madrid and ship with

    settler so it arrives on barb-island to fogbust at some point.

    Workers:
    Road SE Pata


    Cities:
    Vijay->HA
    Gondar->Wealth
    Lali->Warrior
    Madrid->WE
    Agra -> Wealth (work 1 gold)
    Barcelona -> WE (Work tiles for max commerce+growth)
    Pata -> Assign Coast to Plains.


    Specs:
    Varan 3 Merc

    T217:

    Units:
    Mace that took Zhou Fogbusts around Zhou
    Land Settler

    Workers:
    Chop Madrid
    Ship 2 workers towards Madrid

    Bombay->Wealth
    Lali->Wealth
    Vijay->HA
    Barcelona->WE
    Madrid -> WE
    Hyder -> Wealth

    Specs:
    Varan 3 Merc
    Calc 4 mercs

    T218:

    Units:
    Settle Stone. (It's same timing to settle near Iron btw, also for to get Galleons back)

    Cities:
    Vijay -> HA
    Agra -> WOrk both Gold. (We're not gifting them anymore, are we? No need to set up as draft-site

    then...)

    Specs:
    Dehli 5 scientists

    T219:
    1xbulb Physics

    Units:
    HM to fogbust in SE barb-land

    Cities:
    Madurai -> Culture

    Specs:
    Calc 3 Mercs
    Vijay 2 Mercs
    Madras 7 Mercs

    T220:

    Cities:
    Dehli -> Work cottage over Silver (if needed not to shrink)
    Aksoum -> WE

    Specs:
    Vijay 1 Merc
    Madras 11 Mercs


    T221:
    Save, upload and report

     
  15. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    @Bugg
    There is not really any other choice for civics (other than delaying Airships whipping 1 more turn thus delaying war).
    I must say I did not test for having enough gold to complete research - I am betting on failure gold and trading from AIs here.

    I'm pretty sure we won't have trouble moving the GG to the fur, even by just using the Caravel. As long as rtge GG gets on the galleon bridge at some point , he'll be on fur at the same time as othe GPs.

    As for Saladin, vassal him right away yes. I've never had a peace-vassal break away from me bit I'm not sure that if we liberate the city that he won't. I'm ready to bet though that once we start the Meh war he'll like us so much that it won't be happening though ( we can leave this issue for next set or I will try to find the answer today).
     
  16. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    My final comment:
    T216
    I don't think we need the chariot to scout Mehmed. We don't need to see his northernmost cities, there's going to be an Archer and an Axe in there. Shipping a helpful troop instead could be better maybe?

    Anyway, your choice :)

    I'd be ready to bet you can play whenever you want.

    BIC+Duckweed are semi-away and won't be voting much.
    dingding seemed fine with the plan as well so that kinda looks like 3/3 to play.

    All that's left to do for me is find out if Saladin wants to break out if we liberate the city.

    EDIT:
    Upon testing liberating the city, Saladin didn't break free anytime. Don't think it's too much worth it to keep the city due to high upkeep. (we'll get about 15 beakers for 12 gold upkeep)
    Unless Mehmed has a very large pile of gold, I'd stay away from trading for his gold just to be safe.
    Anyway, having him as a vassal will lead to shared war bonus against Mehmed which would pretty much guarantee a Friendly Saladin = +10 = UN vote for us

    Crazy edit: can't wait to see what kind of GP we get in Delhi... I'd really love for this optimization to work out!
     
  17. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Chieftain

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    Allright!

    I'll see if I can get some playtime to play it tonight.

    If not I won't have time untill tomorrow afternoon.. fingers crossed :)
     
  18. dingding

    dingding Chieftain

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    Go and good luck, Bugg!

    I'm anxious to read other teams' progress.

    I wonder how One Short Straw can have lost some score and power at the same turn (normally you lose power for score - capture a city - or lose score for power - whip or draft units).

    And how can Phoenix haven't won yet???

    Gypsy Kings should have played better. It seems that they have cherished too much the pops and sacrificed the expansion at the beginning. It's true that the REX makes the most significant difference, which can be seen in around 1AD.
     
  19. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    @Bugg
    Ah! You know you want to play tonight :p

    @dingding
    I am quite unsure about what other teams decided to do with their playing - it will be very interesting to read over the course of a few days!

    EDIT: OSS's power drop could be the result of gifting away cities maybe?
     
  20. dingding

    dingding Chieftain

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    Not possible. They've lost like 40 power, that's 80 pops if they gifted city:p

    I can't imagine how they can have lost equivalent 5 macemen without taking anything:rolleyes:
     

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