SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[AlanH]

Welcome to your SGOTM 11 team thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results page on September 9th, at midnight, server local time.

Thanks again to Gyathaar for coming up with the variant and developing the map.

You are Shaka of the Zulus, and your mission is to dominate the World. The world is standard sized, but crowded with 13 rivals grouped into several power blocks locked into mutual protection pacts. You are out in the cold.

All victory conditions are switched on, but the winning team will be the one that achieves a Domination victory earliest. Domination is defined for this game as 75% of world land plus coast, and 75% of world population.

Here's the start.

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Zulu
Difficulty - Emperor
Opponents - 13: America, Arabia, China, Egypt, England, France, Germany, India, Japan, Korea, Ottomans, Russia, Scandinavia.
World - Standard, Continents, 60% water, 4 billion years old, temperate
Barbarians - Roaming

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Game mods:
The game uses the default rules as defined in the SGOTM Reference Thread, with the following modifications:

- Domination requires 75% of world territory and 75% of world population.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included, as you can see from the starting screenshot. If you have played SGOTM 9 then you will be ready. Other players will need to download and unzip this small graphics mod pack. Details are provided in the SGOTM Reference Thread..

Please ensure that you have incuded the line: NoAIPatrol=0 in your conquests.ini text file.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared, skipping references to PtW or Vanilla versions of Civ3.

The GOTM Reference Thread.
The SGOTM Reference Thread.

Notes:

A. ONLY Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for a single award.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - the laurels will be awarded for the fastest Domination victory. The wooden spoons will go to the team with the lowest final Jason score, having completed the game.

C. You MUST play from the start file assigned to your team. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Enjoy your game

 

[I. Larkin]

OK, I am in. Geogaphically I am in Brasilia, Brazil. Time is 4 hours after England and 4 hours before West Coast. Will be " near computer" 1 hour or so.
Can we start discussion?
Ivan

 

[I. Larkin]

OK, "see you tomorrow". Worker on Cattel, Scout Suoth and try water. But no matter "salt or fresh" better to settle nearby. Problem is on BG or on forest? Forest is 10 schields anyhow...
What to research first is another difficult problem. May be the Wheel?

 

[markh]

Hi guys. Great to play with you again.

Scout should go south to check on the water. I do not think that we want to settle in place, do we ?

If we settle 1 SE the worker could immediately irrigate the cow if we have fresh water there. This would be a positive thing. I would not like to settle on the BG, but maybe the scout reveals a much better location.

 

[Andronicus]

Soory guys - just wrote a detailed post only to be timed out on this internet site.
The short story
Thanks Paul and Abegweit for organising team whilst I was AWOL
Welcome Ivan
1SE sounds like good starting possibility, I doubt we are fortunate enough to get a freshwater start.
Points to consider
crowded 14 civs - ? 3-4AI on each of 3 or 4 continents - poss 4 on our starting one ? AI on same continents in locked alliance
- first team to own starting continent will be well on way to the laurels?
- ? consider despotic GA to achieve this
- early suicide curraghs to contact other continents and play off one block against another?
- any wonders we should build / capture - GLH springs to mind
- research will require at least chivalry and astronomy I think. Wont be surprised if we have to fight to get horses and iron.

I'm in the Australian Alps (actually small hils by northern hemisphere standards) and will return to Adelaide on Monday.
- suggest I go later in roster
- good luck

 

[markh]

A despotic GA will be hard to avoid. With that many civs around the settling phase will be over quite early, so wars might come soon. If we are lucky enough to have horses around we could go just building horsemen, but I doubt that we will be able to get along without building defensive units with this setup.

 

[Paul#42]

Good morning world. This is a nice day to conquer - ahm dominate you...

Welcome Ivan

First thought was settler SE was a no-brainer, so scout could go N (where the real action is) but the chance to miss a good site S of the cow (yet out of range of the goat) convinces me of scout S. Then we need a screenshot to discuss whether scout shall proceed E, S, SW or W.

Wait - if we move the worker to the cow first, we could tell if the settler should go S (if there is a nice spot SW-S) or SE. In that case the scout might move N (or W or E) to explore faster.

I do not think there is any chance that chop first for a quick granary is the first action. Irrigating the cow should be the strongest choice I feel. The BG might be the place to settle this time although I would hate it. If Gyathaar is mean (no doubt about it ) He would give us a BG under the forrest SE anyway... I remember a discussion about that - does CivAssist reveal that?

 

[Paul#42]

Oh wait, irrigation of the cow might become a trouble if the water is salty
That might mean a chop first could be an option for our worker.

So scout S it is (for me).

 

[markh]

Oh wait, irrigation of the cow might become a trouble if the water is salty
That might mean a chop first could be an option for our worker.

That was what I tried to say. Scout S, check the water. If we have fresh water : worker to cow and settler 1SE. 2nd turn : settle and worker irrigates the cow. If we have salt water there of course we have to think about something else, although we will not have too much time to check for a better place as we have more AIs than usual around and it will get more crowded. Does the AI start with two settlers on emperor already ?

 

[Abegweit]

Hi everybody. And welcome to the team, Ivan

Let me add my voice to the chorus in favour of scout south. When we get a save, we should do that and then have further discussion.

PS, the AI only gets one settler.

 

[Paul#42]

Research
English, French, India, Korea and Vikings start with Alphabet but I doubt any of them going for Writing directly. However the trading activity should be quite high so a slingshot is not easy. Our techs are nearly worthless for trading.

All first tear techs are spread except one:
The Wheel could give us a monopoly though some others might go for that, too. Is it worth trying?

Golden Age
I second markh, we might not have the luxury to abstain from our Impis till we are in republic (or monarchy). We might want to calculate very early if a GA would give us a boost - remember the effect narrow differences early turn big in the future.
Ans if we are at war early we will have to fight all civs on our starting continent - this might get tough...

 

[Paul#42]

Do we want to call us Shaka, not stirred?

AlanH wanted to be prompted by this time, so Abegweit, if you'd like to send him a message...

 

[AlanH]

I've changed your thread name to Shaka, not stirred. You'll be abbreviated to Shaka on the Progress and Results page.

 

[Paul#42]

Thanks. Now we already achieved all I was aiming for

I might want to set higher aims for myself...

 

[AlanH]

I might want to set higher aims for myself...

How about ... winning a laurel

 

[Abegweit]

Thanks for setting the name, Alan

On strategy, here's my C$.02.

I agree with Andronicus about the GLH. We should definitely consider building it. It is especially good at continents and with only 60% water, it might well be enough to allow us to reach our goal. If we do decide to build it, we should hold off on suicide ventures until it is finished. Ignoring the value in early exploration, the expected ROI on suicide galleys and curraghs is about the same. It shifts strongly in favour of galleys if the GLH is factored in. With GLH steroids, galleys may even be able to explore the entire world without risk.

I don’t understand all this talk about despotic GAs. I am not against them if the circumstances are right, which usually involve an awesome AA UU. The Impi is not awesome.

I don’t see any reason why it should be difficult to avoid despotic GAs either. If we don't build Impis, we won't get an accidental GA I rarely build spears and Impis should be no different. Their purpose is to get a GA, not to defend our lands. You defend by killing invaders before they get to your cities, not by cowering in them and watching them pillage your countryside. Impis do combine well with horses but it’s like spears with archers. One or two is enough. I fully expect that, when we want our GA, we will have to get it by using them on the attack.

It's only exaggerating a little to say that any Impis we make before preparing for our GA should be whipped, not built. E.g it's done as a panic defence against an impending surprise attack. An unpanic defence involves training vet archers or stronger units. As such, the crowded map may well mean we need barracks sooner than usual. It does not mean we need Impis.

Research: definitely Alphabet. No second choice. I see no reason not to try for the Sling (or Philosophy at the very minimum) and Alpha has plenty of other advantages too. I almost always get the Sling at Emperor in my own games even if I start with neither Alpha nor Pottery. Somehow we never seem to manage it in the SGOTM Here we at least have granaries from the getgo. Alpha is the most expensive tech and as such it is difficult to trade for without having a good discount. As Paul noted, the AI does not prioritise Alpha. Nor does it like Writing or Philo and it only has a moderate interest in CoL.

Incidently, I disagree with the idea of going for monopoly techs. The first tech on which I want a monopoly is Writing and I have no interest in trading it – or any other early techs for that matter. We already have Pots and WC, which is all we will need for quite a while. While it’s true that they are useless for trading, why would we want to trade for anything? Except, of course, for Alpha TW and IW are medium term objectives but they pale in comparison with Philo and Republic. I have a feeling that Andronicus is right that we will have to fight for resources, which makes even TW and IW low priority. In any case Writing or CoL, traded at the right time, will get both of them.

 

[Paul#42]

I agree with Andronicus about the GLH. We should definitely consider building it. It is especially good at continents and with only 60% water, it might well be enough to allow us to reach our goal. If we do decide to build it, we should hold off on suicide ventures until it is finished. Ignoring the value in early exploration, the expected ROI on suicide galleys and curraghs is about the same. It shifts strongly in favour of galleys if the GLH is factored in. With GLH steroids, galleys may even be able to explore the entire world without risk.

Without lighthouse, suicide curraghs have movement of 2. (No differential movement this time?). That would mean almost no use for suicide missions. So TGL is an option, definitely. Plus the AI don't get it.

I don’t understand all this talk about despotic GAs. I am not against them if the circumstances are right, which usually involve an awesome AA UU. The Impi is not awesome.

Of course he is not but I think we should consider using him if the start is so crowded and its use combined with our GA would speed up the conquest of our continent by some ten turns. Because ~20 turns at max is what a non-despotic GA gains us later.

Research: definitely Alphabet.

With 5 rivals starting with Alpha, a monopoly on The Wheel would get us Alpha much sooner if we know two Alpha-Civs by then. We might even be able to get it for Pottery + TW if we only know one Alpha-Civ. I just hate to research techs others already have known for ages

 

[AlanH]

Differential naval movement is enabled for all SGOTMs. See the SGOTM Reference Thread.

No more hints

 

[Abegweit]

Without lighthouse, suicide curraghs have movement of 2. (No differential movement this time?).

Good question. Perhaps a mod can answer it. If on, it changes the ROI equation in favour of galleys.

Edit: crosspost with Alan. Since differential movement is on, we should not build curraghs at all. Scouts are cheaper explorers than curraghs and their other advantages more than make up for their slightly slower movement. And galleys are better for suicide missions, with or without the Light.

So TGL is an option, definitely. Plus the AI don't get it.

GLight could easily be a game-breaker in our hands. I really don't care whether the AI gets it. They don't know how to use it.

Of course he is not but I think we should consider using him if the start is so crowded and its use combined with our GA would speed up the conquest of our continent by some ten turns. Because ~20 turns at max is what a non-despotic GA gains us later.

Possibly, but I strongly doubt it. We may well start warring before Republic as we did in our last game. But, if there's one thing I hate even more than a despo GA, it's needing to switch to republic and not being able to because you are in GA! We should switch sometime before 1000 BC and, if we have a despo GA, we will be in the middle of it at that point. In any case, this discussion is the opposite of the previous one. It's about embracing a despo GA, not avoiding it.

With 5 rivals starting with Alpha, a monopoly on The Wheel would get us Alpha much sooner if we know two Alpha-Civs by then. We might even be able to get it for Pottery + TW if we only know one Alpha-Civ. I just hate to research techs others already have known for ages

Don't take chances. Alpha is what we need, not monopolies, so go for it. Always, always, always make a beeline for Philo/Republic. Always. The only thing which can have a higher priority is Pottery but we already have that. If we find two Alpha civs, we'll get a big discount on our research anyway. Maybe the investment plus our techs (and whatever our expansionist civ can find) will be enough. If we don't find Alpha civs, we will have made a very serious error. You don't often get monopolies from first tier techs at emperor anyway.

 

[Abegweit]

Differential naval movement is enabled for all SGOTMs. See the SGOTM Reference Thread.

No more hints

Please Just one more. Is the movement bonus for the GLight doubled too, or does it remain at one? I'm guessing the latter, which reduces its value considerably.

Edit: Actually I've changed my mind. Differential movement adds a lot of value to the GLight. Without it, a galley can go sea-ocean-sea-coast. At 60% water, that might very well be enough. However, with the Lighthouse, you can cross six (or seven, depending on the answer to that question) ocean tiles safely! This is almost certainly enough to get our objective.

Tentatively, I think we should build it and attempt to finish the game with chivalry. We'll know whether this is possible long before we get there, of course.