SGOTM 11 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

[AlanH]

BtS SGOTM 11 - Welcome the Goddess

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 11 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

You are playing as Gandhi and, appropriately, your civilization is dedicated to the worship of the Goddess of Peace, Eldine, who will enter the world to bring in an era of everlasting happiness on the very day that you prove her righteousness to the world by securing a peaceful victory over the other civilizations. There is but one problem. Eldine is currently naked and must be clothed when she enters the world. In order to clothe her in a manner as befits a great Goddess, you must have access to fur, dye, silk and ivory. Your Holy books tell you that Eldine will use the fur as a portal through which to enter the world, and to demonstrate your devotion to her, you must have a welcoming party ready on the fur: Four great people (to symbolise Eldine's greatness) and four warriors (to symbolise the toil and labour as you raised Eldine's great civilization from a single settler). This will be no easy feat, since rumour has it that fur is so rare that only one unique supply exists, and that is heavily guarded by the most vile barbarians. Doubtless this was the result of meddling by the Devil Satan when the world was young and the Gods not paying sufficient attention.

Oh, and Eldine detests war and all its trappings. On the day she enters the world, she will question your brother and sister AI civs to ascertain how you have treated them, and will be distressed beyond belief should she discover that you have been excessively warlike towards them - in that case she will reject your civilization and look for more worthy worshippers.

Your aim in this game is to welcome in Eldine by securing a cultural or diplomatic victory that satisfies the following conditions:

• Every AI is still alive and running a state religion.
• All your cities have access to fur, dye, silk and ivory.
• You have the welcoming party of four great people and four warriors standing ready on the only fur in the world. (The great people can be of any type)
• You are running a state religion which has been spread to every one of your cities.
• No more than two AIs have a 'you declared war on us' negative modifier towards you.

The winner of the competition is the team that secures the earliest (measured by date) cultural or diplomatic victory where all these conditions are satisfied on the turn of your victory. Obviously your game is forfeit should you lose the game or win by some other victory condition. If you win a cultural or diplomatic victory without satisfying all the conditions, your game will be listed and ranked within a secondary group for the amusement of other teams (especially if you do something silly that makes it impossible for you satisfy the conditions, like letting ivory become obsolete, or having fewer than 4 warriors when your tech becomes too advanced to let you build any more).

Timetable
The start files will be published on Friday, April 23 here. There will be one start file per team. Please ensure that you only download your own team file.

The finish deadline is August 23 2010. If any team has not finished by this date they will be deemed to have retired, and will not be eligible for any awards.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



Map Parameters

• Playable Leader/Civ - Gandhi of India
• Traits - Spiritual, Philosophical (starts with Mysticism and Mining)
• Unique Unit - Fast Worker (replaces Worker)
• Unique Building - Mausoleum (replaces Jail)
• Starting Era - Ancient
• Difficulty - Emperor
• Game Speed - Epic (750 turns)
• World size - Standard
• Rivals - Six
• Landform - Fractal
• Sea level - Medium
• Climate - Temperate
• Other settings - No goodie huts, No events
• Victory Conditions - All enabled

Notes

• Versions
  This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.19, using the HoF Mod BUFFY-3.19.003. This HoF Mod version is available here.
  
  If a later BtS patch, or BUFFY version, is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in the above versions before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.
  
  Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows game on their system.
  
• Awards
  Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the Fastest victory that meets the above stated conditions, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.
  
• Rules and Procedures
  Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
  All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Roster:

IdiotsOpposite
Brian Shanahan
dima42
Earthling
ForGreatJustice
MatrixTheKitty
neilmeister

Any requests on the order? I decided I wanted the first slot, because really, how much damage can you do to your own game in the first 20 turns?

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

To discuss strategy...

First thing I notice is that we cannot tech Industrialism. This shouldn't be a problem to us.

Now for the hard things...

First question: How in the name of Eldine are we going to make sure that none of the AIs adopt Free Religion?
Second question: Should we try for a cultural victory, or a diplomatic victory?

Thoughts on question two: With a cultural victory, we can just tech to liberalism, gain the stuff we need, and put culture to 100% while pushing for great people. I think that it will be a far easier victory. What about you guys?

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

{Reserved3}

 

[ForGreatJustice]

I'll offer my two cents first, surprise!

First question: How in the name of Eldine are we going to make sure that none of the AIs adopt Free Religion?
Second question: Should we try for a cultural victory, or a diplomatic victory?

Spies baby. If we can get our esp strong in this game we can control the AI by forcing them on the up to 4 turns (or 5, not sure if AI gets one extra turn before actually changing even though they hit the 5 turns) before turn victory into a non-Free Religion civic. In addition, we can use spies to also change to whatever religion we want provided it has spread to them. Very useful for diplomacy.

Tough to say at this moment which might be the easier of the two victories. Instinct says diplomacy because we can focus on just relations as opposed to relations + nabbing culture buildings. We have more control over AI attitude than controlling which wonders will grab. And instead of cultural slider, we can use the esp slider. Ultimately, we must assume the AI will probably go free religion when available. We need the means to change them back at the last second.

Regarding order, kinda moot since we can always discuss here, but I think our strongest REXers (whoever most comfortable with REXing) should be in the 2-4 slots. That means not me, I'm happy batting 5th in this strong diverse lineup.

Again, only my two cents. Let's keep the war planning oops) I mean strategizing rolling. And IO you STILL can mess up the game in the first 20 turns

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

I'll offer my two cents first, surprise!


Spies baby. If we can get our esp strong in this game we can control the AI by forcing them on the up to 4 turns (or 5, not sure if AI gets one extra turn before actually changing even though they hit the 5 turns) before turn victory into a non-Free Religion civic. In addition, we can use spies to also change to whatever religion we want provided it has spread to them. Very useful for diplomacy.

Tough to say at this moment which might be the easier of the two victories. Instinct says diplomacy because we can focus on just relations as opposed to relations + nabbing culture buildings. We have more control over AI attitude than controlling which wonders will grab. And instead of cultural slider, we can use the esp slider. Ultimately, we must assume the AI will probably go free religion when available. We need the means to change them back at the last second.

Well, this is excellent, I've always wanted to run a spy-based game.

Heck, why don't we do that? Run a game based around espionage?

Here's a guide on how to do just that...

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/espionage_guide.php
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=274135
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=269801

If we want a tech, we can steal it. If we want other stuff, we can steal it.

How about it? If we don't win the game, we can at least win the oddball award.

And if we do do it, this reading is your homework, and there WILL be a quiz.

 

[Earthling]

Play the land too imo; though espionage is viable I'm not sure it's something we could just committ to too early. Though it's almost more doable with cultural since we don't need to push a specific tech pace.

Anyway I see posting on this thread has opened up; didn't want to spam early posts if we were reserving first page for something. But I'm of course fine discussing here/PMs/wherever. Looking forward to the start; not sure about timing for me on but I'd try to available for a slot the team is ok with. Certainly in a week or two things are good; finals week in mid-May not so much

Diplo is usually faster than culture except Gandhi is one of the key leaders who can pull it off otherwise. Obviously the additional conditions on victory will be hardest though if we need military to go find resources hidden halfway across the map and keep the AI all doing the right things. So a culture push would probably be on passive buildup; wonders and great artists, rather than going 100% culture quite as early, because we might need parity in other areas. Finding stone/marble/general REX stuff early helps regardless of course.

Also espionage if we were after it is more doable with culture definitely; we wouldn't have to worry about our tech pace so much at all if that was the case, if we built key early wonders, got a GSpy or two, and let things settle in from there. We're Philo and would almost certainly run Pacifism, and Spies and Artists do offer the best raw yields of all specialists, if you actually want espionage/culture. Don't quite think we could finish the game before the AI at least had access to free religion though but that would be an accomplishment; keep the AI in perma-war with each other by bribes and sabotage. But really just looking forward to discussion etc, and open to anything. I'll be careful and diligent as I can when it's my turn of course, not worried about anyone messing up mechanics or something, you guys'll be great.

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

Hmm. Espionage. I've never really bothered with it before. So if we do go for that, just know that I have zero experience with it.

Well, maybe not zero. I probably got some XP from reading and such, but yeah.

 

[neilmeister]

Diplo is faster to achieve, usually, but riskier.
Our neighbours, or lack of them, will probably help us decide.

I notice I am lucky last well, someone has to be I guess.

Concerning our start position:
Is that a FP under the settler?
I'm thinking warrior SW, and settler SE, maybe....

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

Is that a FP under the settler?

Looking closely, yeah, I do believe so. That's strange. A flood plains/forest? Don't think I've seen that before.

Ya know what? I bet that's one of the things they worldbuildered in, to throw us off.

Well, I guess we'll know for sure once we get the save.

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Looking closely, yeah, I do believe so. That's strange. A flood plains/forest? Don't think I've seen that before.

Ya know what? I bet that's one of the things they worldbuildered in.

I doubt it, although I may be wrong. It actually looked like a plains tile to me.

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

It actually looked like a plains tile to me.

The beige beneath the trees looks lighter than the plains up in the corner, and the green right beside the river looks lighter than the grassland.

But again, we'll only know for sure when we get the save.

 

[ForGreatJustice]

Play the land too imo; though espionage is viable I'm not sure it's something we could just committ to too early. Though it's almost more doable with cultural since we don't need to push a specific tech pace.

Of course, I was just offering an idea. A lot will depend on what's around and especially which AIs are we dealt with.

Diplo is usually faster than culture except Gandhi is one of the key leaders who can pull it off otherwise. Obviously the additional conditions on victory will be hardest though if we need military to go find resources hidden halfway across the map and keep the AI all doing the right things. So a culture push would probably be on passive buildup; wonders and great artists, rather than going 100% culture quite as early, because we might need parity in other areas. Finding stone/marble/general REX stuff early helps regardless of course.

I agree on this.

Also espionage if we were after it is more doable with culture definitely; we wouldn't have to worry about our tech pace so much at all if that was the case, if we built key early wonders, got a GSpy or two, and let things settle in from there. We're Philo and would almost certainly run Pacifism, and Spies and Artists do offer the best raw yields of all specialists, if you actually want espionage/culture. Don't quite think we could finish the game before the AI at least had access to free religion though but that would be an accomplishment; keep the AI in perma-war with each other by bribes and sabotage. But really just looking forward to discussion etc, and open to anything. I'll be careful and diligent as I can when it's my turn of course, not worried about anyone messing up mechanics or something, you guys'll be great.

Hmm... could you imagine winning this game before Free Religion?

EDIT BTW, I didn't see this but for you GOTM vets, can others not currently up download saves in order to analyze alongside the person up playing? I ask because I just realized what's to stop a player from d/ling the save and playing a whole game through just for recon? I mean we have the honor system, but not all are honorable dwarves that worship and protect Eldine.

 

[neilmeister]

Hmm... could you imagine winning this game before Free Religion?

No, I can't.


EDIT I am not sure exactly how it will be monitored, as this is my first SGOTM, but in a regular GOTM, everytime you load, and play, is logged.

I myself had a problem where my friend who was staying with us played a GOTM at the same time as me, and I was excluded from that month. The logs contained loading and playing data, and if there is any inconsistency, the game is excluded.

One of the teams in the last SGOTM had a problem along these lines. There ended up being a long list of things that were 'allowed', and an equally long list of things that were not allowed. Cant remember which team it was. Doesn't matter, this is a perfect question for the maintenance thread

 

[Earthling]

BTW, I didn't see this but for you GOTM vets, can others not currently up download saves in order to analyze alongside the person up playing?

I am not sure of this. It appears suggested that only one person should download the save from the "submissions" page. If so we just have to be very meticulous in reporting to others; screenshots with detailed city and terrain views and so on. Obviously any playing ahead isn't allowed and we'll of course be honorable. But I'm new to the succession format here so I don't know if anyone other than the person currently in the rotation can load up the game or not.

As far as strategy; the map is probably designed/balanced to be somewhat unusual. I really haven't gone for any lightning cultural games lately so I might play around sometime soon with Ghandi and see how fast it can be done, assuming we get the right wonders. So if we do plan on culture from the start in this one we'd have to look for stone/marble/do our expansion right. And then satisfy the various victory criteria, which may mean a bit of planning for boats/warfare/etc... Hopefully there's been nothing really cruel like the fur being in a barb city guarded by drill mech infs...

 

[ForGreatJustice]

As far as strategy; the map is probably designed/balanced to be somewhat unusual. I really haven't gone for any lightning cultural games lately so I might play around sometime soon with Ghandi and see how fast it can be done, assuming we get the right wonders. So if we do plan on culture from the start in this one we'd have to look for stone/marble/do our expansion right. And then satisfy the various victory criteria, which may mean a bit of planning for boats/warfare/etc... Hopefully there's been nothing really cruel like the fur being in a barb city guarded by drill mech infs...

Well I was thinking of the obvious just in case we get too ahead of ourselves. If a non-barb city was on the furs, two words: Open Borders

And if after early recon turns up empty on readily available marble/stone, I would seriously consider going diplo unless we have a very friendly AI neighbor with multiple sources of both.

 

[neilmeister]

Well I was thinking of the obvious just in case we get too ahead of ourselves. If a non-barb city was on the furs, two words: Open Borders

I think Earthling is on the right track with his paranoia suspicions.

DS will have protected it, to stop anyone getting it too early. This ensures some mayhem trying to keep everyone in a religion.

 

[Earthling]

We have to have the furs too at least though. I don't think AI are even able to trade a resource they have only one of; there's only one fur in the world so if an AI had the city we wouldn't be able to have access to them in our city. Same goes for the other resources too of course; if there's not multiple sources we may not be able to trade with the AI for them. Though just being somewhere in an enemy AI's territory is a lot less worrisome than it being hidden inside some maze of ice-mountains full of worldbuilded barbarian cities or something.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

I think Earthling is on the right track with his paranoia suspicions.

DS will have protected it, to stop anyone getting it too early. This ensures some mayhem trying to keep everyone in a religion.

I think our plan B on religion would be to go for a bit of judicious bribery about 9 turns before victory, if we can manage it. Remember they only have to finish in a state religion.
On the other conditions, we need to found a GP farm (so lots of food, and Philosophical will help), spam enough warriors to keep Eldine happy (not teching fur is out because we need the cams).
We have to try and avoid war at all costs (we don't want to lose on the penalty). I reckon going for culture while keeping on the side of as many of our neighbours as possible is the best way to do things. Build a strong defensive army, while being liberal in our trades, and doing a bit of civic swapping to keep people on our side could help (swapping civics wont hurt we're spiritual).
We start with Myst & mining, do we want to go for an early religion to try to spread it around? (I'm not sure if we can do it with that start I usually just jump on the biggest one out there).
The mausoleum is fairly useless for this varant, a jail that gives +happy instead of -War weariness (though we might be building them for espionage if needed).

On the Willem game, I was thinking as an addition to the variants to be controlling all spice resources on win day too, as we'll need the spices for our religious ceremonies (yes dancing around in a field naked while stoned off your tits is a religious ceremony).

 

[Earthling]

Yes, they only have to finish in a state religion, and for that matter so do we. If we ended up going for diplo or something we could run free religion in the midgaem to not get any negatives that might hurt and only switch at the very end to a religion of our own when we're ready for victory. But I suspect we'll end up with Pacifism most of the game anyway and spreading an early religion could really help keep AI in line, though we'll have to see.

Early Stonehenge/Oracle are of course good builds no matter what, certainly we have a very strong start with plenty of food, and forests for our fast workers to chop. First GP on a shrine would definitely be all right in my book; any more prophets could perhaps be saved to be some of the final great people.

That does oddly look like a floodplains forest to me too but we'll have to see when we get the save; checking out what's on that plains hill for the potential to settle there may be a good idea.