Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 20, 2010.
I PM'ed Earthling to remind him it was his go.
Just checking back in since I have a spare moment right now. Nice play dima. I'm still too busy with work to contribute and devote too much time, right now my students are starting their final project. Once mid June hits I'l be back in action hopefully.
BTW, what is AUFN?
Also, has IO truly gone AWOL? Not one word from him this entire time?
AUFN=AUtoskip For Now, I'd imagine.
Yes IO has gone seriously AWOL, I left a PM on his profile and no reply.
AUFN = Autoskip Until Further Notice
I'll PM Earthling again, as he's active on the forums but not really around much.
I'm checking back in, sorry I missed stuff. I should apologize for the last week or so just didn't catch up and I could have a few days back, before that was busy with exams and travelling. Thanks for being patient; I fully understood if you wanted to skip over me again, and I know I won't be doing anything till I catch fully back up with everything we're up to.
I'm willing to wait a few days, especially if you're going to come up with some good input. But it remains a team decision. By the way our captain has gone completely AWOL and FGJ is on autoskip to the end of the month (watching the World Cup I'd guess), so we're down to 5 (including yourself) for the moment.
I know, I don't want to let you guys down. I was also stuck (well, it wasn't a bad thing) as turnplayer on our Democracy game where our team is one of the teams kinda hurting on players too. I should be able to keep up with this though.
And I do have a lot of ideas. For one though great work again to the last few turnplayers, can't say I'm not happy, we seem to be doing rather well. The path we're on is also pretty good and we seem to be head and shoulders above the AI. Really, we shouldn't have to worry too much, if we keep Zara as a friend, and AI are just absolutely awful at sea invasions, but we'll probably be ahead in technology too and not have to worry about that.
-We need to find a solid third culture city for sure. Now, I once thought that Vijay could be all right, but the key was chopping those forests into some solid wonders. I'll have to check a lot, haven't picked up the save today but if I'm up next and you all are ok with it I'll load it up (not play any turns yet, just for more looking around). But here's the idea - if nobody has gotten, say, the Statue of Zeus, or Mausoleum, getting these wonders is worth 20 and 40 in 1000 years (that really becomes an issue soon, anything after about 300 AD won't get to double it's culture because like 1500 AD is so far away). Simply having 2-3 major wonders and then get Hermitage in the city, and it doesn't have to have the most cottages.
-In a related matter, Zara took that Northeastern spot really annoyingly. Guess it just happens, it's true that cut off our blue city. However, if we can afford it, I might found the blue city anyway on a hill and try to steal Zara's cow. Or, if we're looking at the white city, it should work a lot of cottages to build the cottages up to towns for Varanasi or Vijay. Obviously Varanasi is good to run on pure cottages.
I'm actually repeating myself here (some more below), but I also am thinking that perhaps Bombay, the GP farm, could just end up as a cultural city if it wants, it will have a lot of artists. Have to do some thinking about what works to make this happen, and we'd probably give the fish/every possible tile back to Bombay so it can push it's population/culture up in the long run. Oh, and if we go with Bombay as a culture city, I think we might as well put Maoi statues there too - it would thus have Maoi Statues and National Epic as it's wonders. Hermitage goes in the cottage city Varanasi then, and we just let those other coastal cities feed more Great People.
But overall I still think we're on a path to cultural victory. We can get Sistine chapel, pick up Sankore and Minaret at some point, and with religions + wonders + cottages where needed it's not like we'll lose the game. The issue will become going to get our resources, and speed in doing so.
As far as military and technology goes - it appears we just went through the massive wave of tech trading, so I'm as disoriented as anyone, will have to catch up. See how far ahead of the AI we are, I think we got an Academy in Delhi right and we want to pick up Bureaucracy soon? But Music, Bureaucracy, Paper, those are all good techs and with representation too we can be trucking along.
Buildings/military - courthouses honestly just aren't the largest priority, unless for cities overseas. They are better than nothing though and imo we really don't need much military at all, so better than building barracks/extra units that will cost us money. I absolutely think Pacifism works out great and as long as Zara is Pleased/Friendly (and that happens kinda by default if he stays with our religion) we really don't have to fear much in the way of military. So I would focus on infrastructure over military, if we need some to expand overseas and get barbs we'll get it later. Going to crush barbs with Rifles or Grenadiers is far more efficient than axes and swords now. We have to tech/build up anyway, so we might as well focus all on the tech and economy now, and then we'll be even faster to get to the real tech/military we need. And it's not like we couldn't revolt to nationalism for a few turns to draft as many rifles as we'll ever need. (Nationalism is a great tech, we want Taj and Hermitage of course. And again, if we're not fearing attack by the AI, no need to build up a standing force now.) I fully agree we want to go get the furs/other resources as soon as we can but if there's islands full of barb longbows it's not worth the cost to go with a military now.
So let's see if I can condense things into a better short term plan - though the last turnplayers have done great and have of this is already written in. I'll look at the save later and give a full idea of what I might do, pending the team approval of course, all input is great as I'm catching up too.
-Dehli builds the Great Library; has an Academy (right?). Bureaucracy teched too in the near future
-Let the GP farms work on lots of artists, that's what they will do from now until the end of the game. Sistine should be built, it seems like chopping in Vijay could work, because Vijay has lots of forests, and if it becomes culture city #3 the culture couldn't hurt.
-For that matter, we need a final plan for choosing our third culture city. Varanasi = like 14 towns someday, so it's good, and Delhi the capital is good. I think, depending on if we can get wonders this turnset, that just building/chopping some wonders in Vijay could get 50+ (and of course multiplied by cathedrals/free speech etc later). However, it needs some support, so if we settle that intermediate white city or something to help build up cottages that could be important. Sharing the corn with Delhi will be a lot of micromanagement back and forth as always.
-Before I go too far, I do want to point out one other thing. Our GP farm, Bombay, could feasibly become a cultural city. After all, it will have a TON of artist specialists, each at 6 so that's really not so bad, plus it's a holy city. If we do this, then absolutely we should just be sure to chop out the essential World Wonders like Sistine and Taj Mahal whereever we can get them - also Delhi will just build a lot. Will take some hard looking at the save - also, do we have National Epic up? Revolting back to slavery to get that + Maoi Statues + any other infrastructure could be very worthwhile, just to be in slavery for a handful of turns.
-Other cities - with Representation and trading for resources with AI it seems we've built up a happy/health cap. So the focus is on growth/economy - Maoi statues, Great Lighthouse in the one city with the forests available. I will be on the lookout for settling overseas, not sure if we want to go for the sugar yet but we want to beat the AI/barbarians? I personally think we do not really need to worry about military - if Zara stays friendly, and we'll blow the AI away in technology such that overseas AI really don't matter for anything. Besides, we're supposed to be peaceful enough and actually trying to war to conquer somebody probably results in us just losing time - and we do want to optimize for a fast victory. I think somebody said turn 500, but we can do it way before then with the blessings of Eldine I think
I know that's a lot of thoughts for now, but again, I'll try to be ready. If you all are ready I'll take more looks at the save, then we can all formulate a final plan for this turnset. I think 20 turns is probably still fine and I'll probably also end up playing just 5-10 before being back here, but that's after tomorrow/we all have plans ready.
Plan looks good, it's basically what we're looking at. I would also look at getting a third religion. We have 2 unless I'm much mistaken, and a third will be a big boost after music.
On the military side of things we have only been building to have a decent defense in case Zara gets stupid. Barracks were only built when they were the least stupid options.
Otherwise I think we're pretty much on the same wavelenght as a team.
Unless he gets Christianity in one of his cities. He will switch to it, so don't let him get a whiff of it.
Unless of course, it's one of our religions, then we can accomodate, I think
Is our plan for making sure AI are running state religion still based on espionage? If so, courthouses might be slightly less of a waste of time than I previously claimed.
10 imaginary dollars says that Willem is somewhere on this map
I'm just happy your back.
The plan looks solid, but I have a few disagreements.
1) Hermitage must go in the city with the highest base culture, it is a multiplier wonder, so we want to maximise the 'free' culture.
Leg1 will probably still need 1 artist bomb. Leg2 will need 3-4, and Leg3 will need ~9.
The only way you would not put hermitage in Leg1 is if we don't have enough Artists to bomb all the cities and Leg1 would then get to 50,000 by itself.
2) Courthouses are good, as they will allow us to run 100% culture earlier. Also, I think we get them half price. Forbidden Palace is also a good wonder to reduce costs and also increase culture. Varanasi is the obvious choice for it.
I'm pretty sure Delhi will get to 50,000 by itself, but we'll have to see. It should have close to 200 base culture with any luck, (already will have at least 80 on wonders, then throw in 20 for religion/Sistine, another 20-30 on regular buildings like library, theatres, uni, religious buildings of the other religions, and cottages and trade routes) just cathedrals/free speech puts it a very decent 7 or 8 hundred a turn. Since Delhi probably isn't after the national epic or even heroic epic it could possibly get hermitage + oxford though as it's two wonders. But really, depending on the third city I see Varanasi as a better link for Hermitage - it won't have tons of wonders, it's not a holy city, what it will have is just the straight commerce through towns/trade routes, and it won't have a few thousand culture already that Delhi will just get naturally even before the slider goes 100%. Basically, Delhi is already ahead at the start because it's the capital with lots of wonders and will have built up a lot of culture over time even before Hermitage and going 100%- I think what you layed out will be the case, it'll probaby hit before we even get bombs to the other cities.
AI running religions - espionage will be part of it, sure, though it usually takes them a while to get out of a religion into free religion. I think generally by the early Renaissance we'll be outpacing them quite a bit and then there's no point in helping them catch up anyway, so some of the slow/warmongering ones if they war with each other wouldn't even get liberalism/democracy for a while.
Anyway, in a related vein I think we can pretty much be sure to get Islam though, again just through tech lead (Representation and Great Library and all that, yeah ) If we want Christianity probably should be sooner rather than later though. Likewise, the Apostolic Palace for extra production in all religious cities could be rather useful, but it does take a lot of production and commitment, to build it before the AI who love to get it.
Courthouses are always good, I agree, and we'll build them if we have nothing else, but perhaps temples/monasteries (who with Minaret, Sankore, etc... will be really monstrous) would be a preference, granaries/libaries in new cities too. We don't get them cheap - we get cheap temples and cheap universities - not bad but not as good as Organized I know. (but, well, the traits are solid anyway).
I'll have a look over every city/thing we can spot in the save and post a full plan tomorrow before tackling this though. Really want you all to make sure things are polished and after all your patience don't want to rush through. I don't want to delay either though so tomorrow we could play this out, and then see who else on the team is around I guess, I'll have to look at the roster too for who's on deck.
That would be me.
As long as were in the state religion of the AP we'll get the bonus for production. As Spiritual all we need is a few spreads from our overseas buddies. If we take out the Treasure Island barbs and don't manually spread we could have a good chance of getting all religions. It is very handy to have a few cities without any religion, especially if you have enough to get the needed Cathedrals.
Well, looking over things as I get ready for this turnset I think there is a LOT to discuss, and some things we'd apparently overlooked. To get started, I think I won't be playing this set tonight without a clear plan to give you all time to hear back. So, just a list of things I noticed and some questions to resolve collectively, some more urgent than others.
-The Great Lighthouse has already been built guys. Zara Yaqob built it, probably what took him forever all these years. He only has three cities still though and it looks like we have that chance to settle a city east of Delhi and pick off some nice river grasslands.
-Likewise, Christianity already FIDL. Not any of the civs we know maybe, could be another continent.
-We are running Pacifism, but we have not actually adopted a religion ourselves. As our major cities have religions we are getting no net benefit from Pacifism. Currently a one-turn delay before we can change civics but we should consider what to change regarding both civics and religions.
Overall Strategy Plans
-I personally now favor Bombay as our third cultural city, along with Varanasi and of course Delhi. There are many reasons, and first another screenshot for a good look at Bombay.
So here's the city. It has ridiculous food no matter what we do - over +20 right now. Also has 10 water tiles, and it can take back the fish from Patal in the long term if it wants. Opposed to Bombay, we don't seem to have as sweet of other options. It's getting a bit late to make much out of Vijay going the production route, and it won't have cottages up for a while, so I've just got a gut feeling Bombay is now the solid choice.
Here's what I would do then - first in the short term as discussed below we should work on empire wide happiness, but that will be resolved, and I think the city can grow to a cap of 15 or so in any scenario. The plan for Bombay would be:
-Get Maoi Statues in Bombay, giving it extra water tile production. I'd chop it with forests right now, no good reason to put it off. Yes, Agra is a bit heavier on water tiles but we'd just let Agra go with running straight Artists and not worry about it again - the extra boost in the Legendary city is worth it.
-Run Confucianism as our state religion long term. Delhi is likely to pop a Great Prophet, if not now then sometime a little later out of its GP. We don't want many prophets at all really but picking up the shrine in Bombay is an added bonus.
-Also get National Epic in Bombay, and long-term it will run close to 10 Artist specialists probably, on top of its regular tiles. Probably will take a few culture bombs but it won't be a bad cultural city.
For that matter - General Cultural Planning
-I believe I misspoke earlier on the Legendary threshold - remember it's 75000 on epic, but again that's over a few hundred turns we'll have and artists bomb for 6000. Anyway, our cities would be Bombay, Varanasi, and Delhi. It is still my opinion that Delhi is probably good almost no matter what - it will have close to 100 base culture-per-turn just from wonders, add in towns and trade routes etc and it will probably not need either Hermitage or culture bombs. I would get Hermitage in Varanasi, which will have 13 or 14 towns, but overall lower production and less buildup - it will take some culture bombing as will Bombay. We of course want Cathedrals wherever we can get them too.
-This is the second real part of the mess/short term concern. So I'm not sure where to start, but a list of priorities is good. Here are the wonders I think we really want/need:
Sistine Chapel - absolutely necessary
Taj Mahal - really nice, and we'll get it anyway because we'll blow out AI in tech to get there
Sankore, Spiral Minaret - also great, and also we should have a tech lead
Great Library - we're already going to build it like right now and it'll of course be useful
Mausoleum - here's where we start looking at trouble. This wonder I feel is very, very useful, really almost better than the Taj. We will have the Taj golden age and possibly one or two more. So the Mausoleum effectively grants another free Golden Age (or more!). The problem is AI may already be hard at work on it and I'm not sure where we stand on getting the wonder. The good news is we have a couple of cities who could possibly chop it - since the Great Lighthouse is out of the picture, I wouldn't see a downside to chopping that wonder in that city (I've renamed it Calcutta, it was named Vijayanananagagagagagara too, gotta stop letting the name placer do that).
Apostolic Palace - the last effect-useful wonder we'd really want imo. The problem is someone has Christianity, the AI love it, and it's just a pain to build - 600 and no bonus from resources. However, if we're redirecting Vijay into a regular production city, it too has a fair amount of forests and could pull this one off. Controlling the diplomatic votes (to boss Zara/others around) and just the hammer bonuses in all our cities is a really nice effect.
As for other wonders - anything else we get would be purely on the basis of cultural output, and thus only worth it in a main cultural city. Right now I think some things like the Statue of Zeus are lost causes, but if we somehow trade for Ivory maybe we could chop it out in Varanasi or something, 10 isn't something to scoff at, worth 2 towns in the long run. Likewise, other wonders like Hagia Sophia or Angkor Wat or whatever are only worth it if we have time - if we do, great, pick up more culture in a Legendary city.
-Our economy is well afloat and I have previous turnplayers to thank there, it'll get much better shortly with a few more techs and trade with AI. Anyway, we're still ahead in tech and we will get way further ahead soon I'm guessing, with smart trading. Zara needs to adopt our religion though, hopefully he will do it on his own - Confucianism is in his lands, if not we'll bribe him eventually. The overseas AI I don't really care what they do but we have no need to anger them now and selling old/backfill tech for gold at Currency could boost things all around. Top priorities right now I think are getting our religions set up and spread - I agree we want to try to get ones we haven't founded to spread to us. Also, we need to increase our happy cap. Some cruel twist of fate has resulted in Tokugawa having most resources and he hates us. However, this could be remedied if we get enough "fair trading" bonus perhaps - at least enough so that we could trade for luxury resources, of which he has several. If not, we'll manage eventually because say 40-50 turns down the line we will have religious temples everywhere anyway, and settle that sugar, and maybe trade with another AI - and we're at a respectable 9-10 happy anyway.
So with all this said, some of it you all may not agree with of course, so I have several questions and then a tentative plan.
Question for the Team
1) What should be our third cultural city, or do we have any deviations from a cultural victory plan?
2) What world wonders do we really want, and our worth deviating tech in the short term to get? Keep in mind we should be able to get anything Renaissance and onward just from being way ahead in tech - it's what we do right now on some wonders that may still be in the race.
3) How much focus do we want on further/overseas expansion now? This results in two changes to our empire management imo - building more units and having to keep better relations and trade. If we want to hunker down and just work on culture, hoping that in the end we can simply go find the furs+other resources, that is possible. If not, we probably need a bit of a navy, and military, and more settlers and workers, and a bit of a different tech path. Obviously we can claim the nearby sugars and we'll explore a little, but overseas cities are expensive and have a lot of opportunity cost otherwise. Letting the AI claim our victory resources could be trouble on the other hand. At the least, it seems we have plenty of warriors so we'll keep them safe till the end of time.
Now I know that answers to the above could change, but I'll also lay out a
Tentative Plan for this turnset
Technology: Literature, Currency, Calendar, Civil Service, Music, Theology (we won't get that far in these 20 turns though I don't think)
Delhi builds Great Library right away, should be done in this turnset
Calcutta chops the Mausoleum if at all possible, hopefully also by the end of this turnset
Settle a city east of Delhi, taking those grasslands, it'll be a solid city eventually. Probably two more settlers we'll want sometime later too - the sugar island, and that white "intermediate" city.
We might get 2 great People this turnset, though maybe just one. Delhi has either a Prophet or an Engineer, from the World Wonders it's built. Obviously the Engy is great please but a Prophet gets the Confucian building in Bombay. A second GP would be built up from specialists in some other city, we seem to have a lot of scientist points around, or maybe we don't get it this turnset yet if we go out of Pacifism or don't run a ton of specialists.
First, I'm waiting for Currency to see if I can trade for some stuff, maybe get Tokuwaga happy enough to trade resources or same for other AI. Then, we should actually adopt a religion though, hopefully Zara also goes Confucian. I would actually go back to Organized Religion and Slavery for a little while looking at the picture we currently have - or at the least OR, since we're not running heavy specialists yet and Pacifism is costly, and OR helps us get wonders/infrastructure out just a little better.
Bombay is going to become a cultural city, and I favor getting Maoi, so chopping Maoi is the first build there, probably follow with some temples/monasteries, then National Epic. It'll hold off from running some specialists (also it's getting Scientist points now anyway) for growth and build stuff, but it'll pick back up in population so fast anyway.
Delhi builds Great Library, follow with Temples/Monasteries/whatever until Sistine, and it should probably build Sistine though that will take a while. If we consign Vijay to a production city - which looking at things I think does work, then Delhi even keeps the other corn.
Calcutta (western coast) chops out Mausoleum as fast as it possibly can, hope we beat AI to it - I won't waste the forests though, so either we chop with like 5 workers in one turn and get it, or if someone already got it we still have a bunch of forests and we'll find some other wonder someday to chop.
Other cities build straight infrastructure and economy and grow. A couple cities I think had some half built military, if we do go back to slavery we'll see what gets finished up. But I think we have sufficiently military for our continent right now; Zara should never be a threat. Agra/coastal seafood cities will starting running Great People in the long term; in the short term if we want to build a couple more settlers/wokers/slave some galleys too that's all good.
That should be everything now, know it's a really long post. I'll play 5-10 turns and report anyway but if I don't hear back this can wait till tomorrow again, I obviously am great with all of your input. In the big picture I should say we're all still doing really good and I noticed we've still played further than most other teams when I picked up the save and on the graph and all. We just want to be careful and optimize things but we have a solid plan and good ideas and I'm glad for that.
Well Sistine, Taj and Maus with the Glib are probably essential. I don't think the AP is neccessary, handy yes but not needed, especially if we keep Zara out of Christianity (i.e. confuse all his cities). Though if you can build it they will come.
The only deviation from culture would be an AP cheese, but that would require finding all the resources now, quick popping four GPs and trading what we need and sending warriors and GPs to the fur. I can't see that happening (we can spread confused easily enough).
Seeing as someone found Jesus then I would go look for a mountain to bring to Mohammed, thus bringing Spiral into play. Can we do that with your proposed tech path? (I honestly don't know I never prioritise DR)
I would explore Treasure Island ASAP, remember only one fur in the game due to Satan (or Madscientist). If it's there we'll have to settle, I don't want to waste one of our two DoWs if not neccessary.
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