SGOTM 11 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

No, we're not allowed to win an Apostolic Diplomatic Victory - that doesn't actually count for our victories. Then again it may only count as one "point" against us but I'm not sure and wouldn't want to do that. That all said - out of the list of wonders there AP is my bottom priority because it is expensive to get and not ALL that essential. Anyway I don't think we get to Theology or to that wonder this turnset - I'd rather try to get the Mausoleum, and be sure to get Music, and Civil Service obviously, as first priorities.

Divine Right comes after Theology by the way, so yeah we could pick that up. No need for ultra-fast education or something, it's doable in the medium long run (2 or 3 turnsets down the line, 60 turns maybe but that's still early enough Islam)

I do agree finding the fur/this aptly named "Treasure Island" could be important. The thing is I just don't think we'll get there to conquering it until we have galleons, but still we should see what we can do I guess. It really seems like there is one more continent of AI across the Ocean entirely too. Anyway, we have one exploring workboat in the middle of Justinian's territory and anything else would have to be back at home. The good news though is those coastal cities really have nothing to do but run artists and we could slave out some boats/units in the long run, and maybe let Vijay be our ground production city.

Oh by the way - we can note for the record now that there are multiple sources of ivory, (think Justi has one but Toku has several) so in the long run we will probably get to trade for it. Fur we do know there is only one of and if barbarians do have it we want to conquer it. Haven't seen anything about silk nor dye, they may be on the last AI continent, really hope there are multiple sources. But we have saved our DoWs, I think it's really good we never DoWed Zara Yaqob or something silly like that.
 
Yep, NO AP win for us.

Though, I am starting to think that we should keep our options open concerning a Diplo victory.

I'm happy with Bombay being Leg3. It will certainly have the artists to help boost the culture. IF we choose Bombay as Leg3, then I think it makes sense to put Maoi there, otherwise we would just leave it as a pure GP farm.
 
Well, the thing is diplo requires a ton of tech and we get into a real hassle otherwise in the modern era, because we are not allowed to research technology like industrialism or combustion or plastics iirc that obsolete resources. We'd end up beelining Mass Media and if it didn't work out we'd have a lot of wasted time. I think culture can just be pulled off faster overall and we really won't have to rely on fickle AI.

Though Bombay as city #3 is good. I'll start off this turnset if we all right with basic plans - first 5-10 turns, tech Currency next for economy, work on the Great Library, get that one city by Zara's borders so he doesn't steal those juicy grasslands (with a couple of grassland farms the city should grow all right).
 
I'll play part of the turnset now then, cautiously. But really our civ is in good shape, nothing major should go wrong, I'll try to avoid any frustrations.
 
Well, here's an update at any rate. Again, things are generally going well, that's the first spot to say, not like we're not winning by quite a bit. Here we go, turn by turn

turn 160 – played by last turnset, however I saw a lot of overflow in Delhi, changed to research for one turn to put that on Great library rather than part of a temple. Likewise switched Bombay to Maoi Statues, as it seems that it will serve that city well now.

turn161 – workers just doing improvements around the place, most of em already doing something from before. General tasks on getting infrastructure/etc… down won’t be too complicated. In the short term, chopping for Calcutta is important, by the end of the set we will prechop some around Vijay – Vijay becoming a production city and it might build a wonder like AP if we can/we still want it.

turn 162 – Zara adopts Confucianism. Don’t see a reason at this point for us not too; Toku is gonna dislike us a little bit more but it doesn’t throw off other AI. And anyway, we were getting zero benefits out of Pacifism before, now we actually get that +100% GPP. GLibrary well under way, 0% research but then tech currency straight through after.

turn163; nothing too interesting. AI are starting to research Code of Laws; guess Justi already had it. But we haven’t given up Philosophy or Literature and don’t want what they have right now (just Monarchy, not willing to trade Calendar or Metal Casting or Construction on a couple). Looking at GPP, Delhi still awaits the next great person. But either Bombay or Patal is probably going to get our next GP after that, and they both have a ton of scientist points. Are we content getting another scientist somewhere (Academy really can’t hurt, in Bombay again for instance?) That will be an issue by the latter half of this set or next set.

turn164 – Byzantines get Statue of Zeus. No surprises there; the AI had the tech for awhile and he had ivory, so bam. I expect Hanging Gardens to go soon, also Shwedagon, and Colossus. Currency getting closer. One forest accidentally chopped in Calcutta, didn’t realize one turn left, but set to research anyway – as soon as we get Calendar it’ll go into the Mausoleum and I’m still hopeful we can get it.

turn165 – nothing special; that forest hill east of Delhi was prechopped apparently so even faster Great Library. Noticed Justinian had theology, I’m worried about who’s gonna get the AP, but it was probably our lowest priority wonder.

turn166 – Barb galley shows up north of Nagara; ie the sugar island. Problematic, may come to pillage stuff. Justi got Currency; noticed Zara is very nicely teching Metal Casting for us – we can see Zara’s research. Diverted some more of our EP points (well, it’s a measly 4 total) onto Justinian though who is looking to be the strongest AI rival. Other news – library in Varanasi next turn, workboat in clam city, currency teched next turn, will probably sell Code of Laws to Toku, Math to Saladin etc… for gold if they have it.

turn167- Prophet in Delhi, not surprisingly, it was 65% prophet. Obviously goes to Confucian holy city (Bombay). GNP nicely up with currency. Trade Math to Saladin for not much gold but trade relations boost too. None of the other AI have anything worthwhile to trade though so don’t give them major techs. The barb galley is going to get one clams no matter what, lucky most of our clam/fish is ocean so barb can’t enter, we’ll replace it later. Again just another note, discussion of when to go back to slavery this second half of turnset, we could use it some places. Patal is pretty much going to get a GS no matter what next too so I assigned more scientists, might as well get it sooner rather than later. Calendar will be teched fast and Mausoleum started on asap then, hope to be able to get it.

turn168 – nothing special at all. Settler for new city by Ethiopian border moves out. Workers will farm a couple of grasslands, and it’ll also helps Delhi grow some cottage tiles.

turn169, 65 BC- good, bad, and interesting news. Good – we are on track for major goals. Lead in technology over the AI and our economy really kicking now. Delhi near completion of Great Library, Bombay will have the Maoi Statues. Bad news is that Justinian built the Mausoleum (in his capital, but that doesn't really matter). Interesting news is that Hinduism spread from who knows where on another continent to Vijay. This should be great for pumping missionaries later.

Start of Turn 170, 50 BC
I am taking a break in this turnset at this point, for advice and suggestions and plan revisions. Several screenshots to follow:

Delhi, the Capital
Spoiler :



Bombay – note Patal will actually beat it on Great People Points, another scientist due soon, an Academy in Bombay sounds about right. When Maoi is up Bombay will work tiles and not run specialists, so when the specialists go back up they will probably be artists. May get one more scientist out of pollution but one more scientist isn't a killer either, useful for bulbing or Golden Age or stuff anyway.

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Agra – barb galley being a nuisance, it lost a fishing boat. Also doesn’t have happiness bonus from Rep but really that won’t matter as we’ll have more resources/religion spread soon. I would personally whip the lighthouse, then soon whip a galley for getting another settler (new settler in Vijay) overseas to the sugar.
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Varanasi - it's doing fine, just a look at cottages. It can take the upper tiles from Agra too over time, likewise that white filler city can help it work cottages up, but we have other settling priorities just a bit first.
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Vijay - just for completeness sake. The settler here goes to the sugar city, then maybe it'll grow if it could borrow Delhi's corn a little bit and work on spreading Hinduism around too, that works great. Those forests haven't been really prechopped like Calcutta's are, again either here or Calcutta could be a possibly if we really wanted to push some wonder like the AP.
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Actually that takes me to my next point – thinking of revolting back to slavery soon to whip infrastructure in many cities, for a few turns. Pacifism seems fine for now. We also don’t want to miss Bureaucracy as soon as it is available so I’ll be careful with that, will probably come near the end of the turnset.

Here is the tech screen, we really are solid in all ways. Zara Yaqob should even nicely trade Metal Casting, which he stupidly spent ages researching, to us sometime in the near future.
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Overview:
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Again, quick summary of my thoughts for the last 10 turns here:
-Finish wonders in core cities, get temples/monasteries if we have time, they are always good choices. Spreading Confucian ain't bad now too since we have the shrine up, but keeping some cities for the lucky new religion, like what happened in Vijay, is cool too. On balance I might just let the shrine autospread and avoid using actual Confucian missionaries.
-For overall empire, revert back to slavery for a few turns, get infrastructure up, some navy. Maybe some AI galley or trireme will show up to kill that barb but I'm doubtful and it'll probably be annoying anyway. We want to get to the sugar island with our next settler I think.
-Technology is finishing Calendar since we're already most of the way into it, then Civil Service - Bureaucracy is a no-brainer. After that, we should clearly beat the AI to music (none of them even have the prereqs). That will do out this turnset though, after music not sure, it's a debate over whether going for Theology/Islam is worth it, if we want to just get Paper and Sankore, etc...


If anyone wants the intermediate save here (turn 170) I can upload it, but I'm fine finishing this turnset to 180, when we officially upload it on results page. And remember you really can't change anything but I guess we all know that, if you really want a look around just ask and I'll put it in. tried to do a thorough job with screenshots for everyone.
 
Looks fine to me, I'd say finish the two wonders then pull the whip (unless you think unknown AI is after GLib too). Tech to Music for the moment and we can debate a path after that, but with Hindu in our lands Islam is not neccesary, especially if we can get the wonders from it with chopping (i.e. being a quick 2nd or 3rd on tech).
Calcutta may be better for chopping out the AP, a culture heavy wonder may be better use of the Vijay chops.
 
Well Vijay doesn't need the culture, at least as long as we're still thinking Bombay as a Legendary city and really I think it is shaping up as one. So we'd only use it to get a wonder faster/beat an AI on something that we need empire wide, the city itself doesn't need anything special. Maybe a fast Taj or something with chops could be doable in the long run though, while our other cities build Cathedrals or something, we could keep options open. If we were to get the AP I would still do it in Vijay because it is 600 raw hammers and we can't do it on forests alone (would take 12+ forests, 5 or 6 is only halfway)- Calcutta just doesn't have the production.

I could see the sentiment that we don't need to go after Islam right away though. Certainly saves us on technology costs, and we can go for Education/Liberalism/Economics and those nice techs. Still it's kind of a synergy thing - if we want to go for the AP then we need Theology soon and we might as well get Divine Right for another religion; if we skip both it's more efficient going another way. Really we'll probably be all right either way and I'm on the borderline so certainly up to the team decision. I also would not go heavily for Versailles or at the least wouldn't worry about it because it is awfully expensive and not nearly as useful as the Minaret in the short term/for the culture game - but if some confluence gives us the chance to build it of course we would, why not.

I think the very next tech is Civil Service though - there is no race to anything else (AI are 1 tech before they can start on Music) and bureaucracy will pay off right away as soon as we get it.

I'll probably go slavery around turn 174 or 175 right now then, just around the 1 or 5 AD point or whatever year it is. But we'll slave the lighthouses/granaries/etc... that we need - not really a need to slave Delhi/Bombay/Varanasi mind you, but it will help in newer cities.
 
Would moving the citizen on the cottage to the mine shave off a turn from the glib in Delhi?

If so, how many turns would it put on growth?

And Calendar, we'll need that for sugar. Is either of the techs Justinian wants (Lit, Phil) a good trade for that?
 
Would moving the citizen on the cottage to the mine shave off a turn from the glib in Delhi?

If so, how many turns would it put on growth?

And Calendar, we'll need that for sugar. Is either of the techs Justinian wants (Lit, Phil) a good trade for that?

1)Probably not from the screenshot.

2)Also from the screenshot, I'm guessing one extra turn before growth.

3)We're 1 turn away at 100% (unsustainable), but as we're running lots of scientists it'll be 4-5 turns I think, we've only about 20% research left, so only good trade for Calendar is money only.
 
It'll probably still be one or two turns even at 0% research at this point by the way. But yeah, probably back low on research for a couple turns, if only also because we get one more Academy up soon and we're squandering more bonus there in Bombay. But if Civil Service after Calendar is good, that will probably finish up this turnset on tech. We also have incense just as a reminder, and yes I do want to get that sugar up and running, both probably not too far out.

And no, I think I just moved off of the mine this turn or a turn ago (was working it for a while) and it didn't change the Great Library, so I figured might as well speed up growth, that tundra tile isn't all that great otherwise.

Lastly I should ask if we're clear to build the National Epic in Bombay. Might come after this turnset again (after Maoi want a temple for happiness and maybe the monastery, both will build quickly). I think we might as well since Bombay will have close to the highest number of specialists if not the most, especially if it takes back another fish in the longterm and all, and it's Great Artist Points anyway. However that does finish up two national wonders in Bombay which means no more available there, but I hadn't really thought of anything else that fits and we're not getting to all the late game ones much anyway. Bombay should eventually have pretty pure/unpoluted Great Artist points - over a hundred with 7-8 specialists and enough bonuses too at some point so I'm content with that plan, but other options may be out there.

In other news I should get another good screenshot of that Treasure Island - because that looks like where our furs/something will be. It's clearly artificial - notice the ice appears to block off the Southern half, and it seems now there is a mountain range with perhaps just one opening and another barb city, before leading back to the final barb city. I'm still thinking taking that down in the Renaissance just with Rifles abd we'll have Galleons real quickly is feasible; don't think the AI will get it yet though we'll have to be careful and keep watching over there; that's what that one workboat will do as he can't even get back iirc (Toku's borders blocking way back).

But overall we should continue to lead the AI in tech and I think we have a good plan - I'll wrap this up later today, on to our next turnplayer whenever ready with the best of luck.
 
turn 170 – found Lahore (keeps giving Vijaya…and Pataliputra as city names. If we want back on default Indian city renames I renamed Vijay and Patal back to these – we can always refer to them in short as Vijay and Patal though). Lahore is right by the Ethiopian border, but some grassland farms will get it growing and it will overlap work a couple cottages for Delhi too.

turn171 – Justinian has Spices available to trade, give him silver, 1 for 1 resource and it’s a fine deal (we had 2 silver). Nice happy cap increase, and with more temples + our own incense/sugar soon we will be good for a long time (and of course when we actually push the culture slider happiness never a problem again)

turn172. Calendar researched; Civil Service next but a few turns at 0% for gold first. Bombay builds Maoi Statues – city really rocking now but we know it will be awesome in time to come.
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turn173. Delhi gets the Great Library. Major surprise as Isabella’s workboat shows up in Zara’s land (we see his cap through espionage/religious influence). Isabella is backwards and weak and apparently reachable by coast back there, all very interesting.
Spoiler :



turn174 – nothing much exciting, cities with old military units finishing production finished those (Delhi and Bombay, one axe and one chariot that were losing hammers otherwise.) Zara Yaqob finishes Metal Casting. As soon as somebody builds the Colossus the AI will probably free up the tech to trade. He even kindly started on Machinery next, takes him ages, but since we’re not teching that path either maybe we can trade for it later too. Other AI plodding along at who knows what, we’re building up gold for Civil Service which will help our economy more :)

turn 175 – Scientist in Patal, becomes Academy in Bombay. Revert back to slavery. Slave: Lighthouse in Agra. Lighthouse in Patal. Galley in Nagara (for sugar island). Granary in Calcutta.

turn 176 – Hinduism spreads by chance in Agra. Noticed Confucianism had spread in Calcutta, probably due to our shrine, which is also up to 6 gold by now, not too shabby. Otherwise cities are doing well. I give it one more turn of building up gold then 100% research straight through the end of this turnset to help on Civil Service, maybe start of next turnset. Delhi is building up tons of GPP. With ZERO specialists (just wonders/Great Library) it makes 49 GPP a turn, it might hit the next great person which is a mix of artist/prophet/scientist/engineer. We’ll get to straight farming artists in our other cities soon though I think.

turn 177 – Isabella “demands” fish. I give in, we have spare and might as well not hurt diplo more (she already hates us due to religion). Toku takes another barb city on his continent with some war elephants, our workboat spots it. Saladin techs Feudalism and would trade it, but didn’t want to give him too many techs (aesthetics + calendar alone is not enough) and we don’t really need feudalism yet. Settler built in Vijay, goes into the boat up at Nagara and will settle the sugar island. Couple workers ready to go get sugar too, they’ve about finished an incense plantation and we’ll leave the other incense till later I guess

turn 178 – nothing too special. Slave one pop for a bit more of a galley in Agra because another barb is spotted, and we could have bad luck and lose something; if not though we have enough galleys/ships to last us, can always upgrade to galleons later. AI have pitiful gold but I’m still thinking we might sell backwards tech like Code of Laws or Math to Toku/Isabella for the gold they do have, better than nothing.

turn 179 – Madras founded (Sugar Island). Saladin’s galley has done us a favor killing a barb galley. So cut navy production; cities like Agra/Nagara can slowly work on courthouses for now or something. Meanwhile just a few turns from Civil Service but looks like it comes right after this set. Other thoughts – on Great People – we will get a free Artist from Music and I would settle him in a city (Varanasi). It still pays off over 200 turns when he makes 14 culture (Sistine) and the 3 science from Rep too. The next GP will probably be an unknown one out of Delhi, if it’s worthless (like a Prophet) could be good for a golden age and/or saving for one of Eldine’s welcomers. Eventually we get a free Merchant out of Economics and we’ll have a free GA out of Taj, that’s it for Great people – we probably won’t tech as far as Physics or Communism, cutting science for 100% culture probably well before then. If by some weird circumstance we don’t cut tech before those they do yield great people which we’ll need on the fur tile at the end, but we’re due to get 30 GP born this game cause all of our gp farms will get up to dozens of GPP/turn eventually.

Turn 180, 100 AD End of Turnset

Nothing too interesting this turn, save uploaded with turn waiting to be ended. We’re maybe 3 turns from Civil Service, AI laughably backwards; in fact they didn’t even get some things they could have, oddly enough, like Hanging Gardens not built yet; if we found a way to chop it that might even be worth it. Colossus also not built. But we have CS, then I’m actually think Drama before Music (no threats on Music still) and the Sistine Chapel. After that we just tour into the Renaissance, Paper and Nationalism and Education and so on, we’ll beat all the AI to the goodies and get set up for culture. Our top three cities look good.

I actually wasted time putting down some signs on the map, next player may be angry so sorry about that. But here’s the basic idea – overlapping cities are going to work cottage tiles if available for the main tiles – grow the cottages to towns as fast as possible. At this point, any newer cities/tiles outside of the main cultural cities can probably just be farmed over – help the cities grow, we’ll have irrigation just fine, and eventually run more artist specialists.
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Other screenshots of technology and cities:
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Spoiler this was 100% research, will be slower :



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Other news/management – we are just clear to revolt civics again. However, I would wait a few more before going back to Caste System. Bombay is going to hit a happy cap and can slave again – I’d slave the monastery then be building National Epic. Likewise a couple newer cities could still need granaries/lighthouses. Delhi is good, it’ll probably get temples/monasteries/theatre and then we’ll be ready to build Sistine. Varanasi wants somebody else to send him Confucianism, but that city is good as well.

Actually now that I mention it, we should consider backselling a little to the AI. We want to keep a solid lead, sure, but there’s no use keeping them too far in the dark, so they can tech stuff on the side we’d want to trade for. I think sometime soon it’ll be worth it to trade for Metal Casting and Machinery and Feudalism and those types of tech the AI research so keep that in mind. If we can do it without coughing up major techs like Philosophy or Civil Service all the better. Also, Apostolic Palace isn’t out yet either and Engineering has a pretty sweet wonder in Notre Dame if the AI never get it, but I wouldn’t call those priorities at all.

Think that’s it for me then, thanks for the support and good luck as we move onward, I’m very optimistic about it all.


Session Log

Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 200 BC to 100 AD:

Turn 160, 200 BC: Vijayanagara has been founded.
Turn 160, 200 BC: You have discovered Literature!

Turn 161, 185 BC: The borders of Patal have expanded!
Turn 161, 185 BC: Zara Yaqob converts to Confucianism!

Turn 162, 170 BC: Gandhi converts to Confucianism!

Turn 163, 155 BC: The Statue of Zeus has been built in a far away land!

Turn 165, 125 BC: Varanasi celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 166, 110 BC: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 166, 110 BC: St. Augustine (Great Prophet) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!
Turn 166, 110 BC: You have constructed a Library in Varanasi. Work has now begun on a Taoist Temple.
Turn 166, 110 BC: Varanasi celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 166, 110 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Agra. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 166, 110 BC: Polynesian (Barbarian) has been captured by the Japanese Empire!!!

Turn 167, 95 BC: You have trained a Settler in Vijay. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 168, 80 BC: Hinduism has spread in Vijay.
Turn 168, 80 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Nagara. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 168, 80 BC: Justinian I has completed Mausoleum of Maussollos!

Turn 169, 65 BC: You have discovered Monarchy!
Turn 169, 65 BC: Gandhi has completed The Kong Miao!
Turn 169, 65 BC: Saladin adopts Caste System!

Turn 170, 50 BC: Lahore has been founded.
Turn 170, 50 BC: Aryabhata (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 171, 35 BC: You have discovered Calendar!
Turn 171, 35 BC: You have constructed Moai Statues in Bombay. Work has now begun on a Axeman.
Turn 171, 35 BC: Tokugawa adopts Vassalage!

Turn 172, 20 BC: Gandhi has completed The Great Library!
Turn 172, 20 BC: You have constructed The Great Library in Delhi. Work has now begun on a Chariot.
Turn 172, 20 BC: Confucianism has spread in Calcutta.

Turn 173, 5 BC: You have trained a Axeman in Bombay. Work has now begun on a Confucian Temple.
Turn 173, 5 BC: The borders of Calcutta have expanded!

Turn 174, 10 AD: You have trained a Chariot in Delhi. Work has now begun on a Confucian Monastery.
Turn 174, 10 AD: Rosalind Franklin (Great Scientist) has been born in Pataliputra (Gandhi)!
Turn 174, 10 AD: Isabella adopts Caste System!

Turn 175, 25 AD: Gandhi adopts Slavery!
Turn 175, 25 AD: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Pataliputra. Work has now begun on a Axeman.
Turn 175, 25 AD: You have constructed a Taoist Temple in Varanasi. Work has now begun on a Taoist Monastery.
Turn 175, 25 AD: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Agra. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 175, 25 AD: Hinduism has spread in Agra.
Turn 175, 25 AD: You have trained a Galley in Nagara. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 175, 25 AD: You have constructed a Granary in Calcutta. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.

Turn 176, 40 AD: You have trained a Settler in Vijayanagara. Work has now begun on a Hindu Monastery.
Turn 176, 40 AD: You have constructed a Taoist Monastery in Varanasi. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.
Turn 176, 40 AD: Magyar (Barbarian) has been captured by the Japanese Empire!!!

Turn 178, 70 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Agra!
Turn 178, 70 AD: Delhi has grown to size 10.
Turn 178, 70 AD: Bombay has grown to size 12.
Turn 178, 70 AD: Nagara has grown to size 3.
Turn 178, 70 AD: Agra will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 178, 70 AD: You have constructed a Confucian Temple in Bombay. Work has now begun on a Confucian Monastery.
Turn 178, 70 AD: You have trained a Galley in Agra. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 178, 70 AD: Zara Yaqob has founded Addis Ababa in a distant land.

Turn 179, 85 AD: Madras has been founded.
Turn 179, 85 AD: Pataliputra will grow to size 7 on the next turn.

Turn 180, 100 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Madras!
Turn 180, 100 AD: Pataliputra has grown to size 7.
Turn 180, 100 AD: Agra will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 180, 100 AD: Calcutta will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
 
Not too shabby, we're ahead of the AI, and we've got or are getting the wonders we need. All we have to do now is secure resources, and keep ourselves out of trouble (I'm making it sound like a walk in the park here).
Of the three wonders that you talked about expecting to get, I'm guessing that HG is better than Colossus with the Schwe trailing far far behind.
 
I meant I expect the AI to get them, and I'm really not sure we'd be able to detour to get them first at this point; somebody could finish any time. However, if we want to try, Hanging Gardens is certainly way ahead for usefulness (free health all game long even isn't shabby). Possibly we could manage to slave an aqueduct and chop out the HG if we really hurried, probably in Vijay - the others aren't worth investing in, and I'm beginning to agree with writing off the AP too.

Short answer, in case there was confusion - I don't think we really have to have any of the wonders we don't have yet, and the AI may beat us to them anyway. Might or might not be doable, I wasn't actually trying to strongly advocate that. However the really nice upcoming wonders like Minaret and Sankore and Sistine Chapel and the Taj, we should all get with ease.

I do think we should lay out some ideas for longterm, but really I'm seeing something like circa turn 300 we'll be about ready to push 100% culture, giving us another 100 turns of just building the culture, and we'll be sure to go get our resources in that time. As far as great people - well my estimates on GPP are about as follows. Once the cities hit their long term/middling size, say around 15 pop for many, we have:
Nagara - high 40s/50 GPP
Agra - 60-70 GPP
Calcutta - 50 GPP upper end, if we farm out Calcutta, lower in the 30s or 40s
Patal - 60 GPP
Delhi - 70 GPP, but many different types (all wonder points here, Delhi won't have much food surplus, maybe one free specialist)
Bombay - 100+ GPP

It won't be worth trying to run artists for GP elsewhere. These cities have 5+ Artists each looking at their food surpluses, to the upper number of 8 or 9 in Bombay which also has National Epic. 2 or 3 Artists only will get about in the 20s GPP, and the city probably ends up building thousands of points but never actually making it to the threshold (eg. a city at +20 a turn, 2000/6000 with other cities constantly popping the upper limit higher, is never going to get a GP. So if we can't get an artist we might as well run scientists/happily manage the land otherwise).

I would use the Merchant from Economics for a Golden age, if we get a weird prophet or something he can go too. With the Spiral Minaret and a Shrine, and hopefully favorable trade with the AI, and courthouses by later in the game, etc... we should be able to run 100% culture without real gold deficitis. Artists I think should settle at least up through like turn 250 - we'll have to do math on this, but usually if they are settled for 150-200 turns before the culture victory settling pays off more than bombing (plus we get gold and science from representation) But I'd settle in Varanasi, where I think we're getting Hermitage. If by some weird situation we can pull off a Great General or two they count as final Great People for Eldine but that doesn't seem worth the effort, unless we have to war for resources anyway. My long term/final tech would be:

After Nationalism/Education/Printing Press:
-Full Democracy line - Constitution, Democracy, we'll build statue somewhere + espy building nice if we need to force civic changes, and Corporation
-Economics leads into Corporation
-We must have Astronomy to get resources overseas
-I would NOT tech Scientific Method, and thus that excludes techs after that. Sci Method brutally obsoletes stuff, and then doesn't give any benefit - we have to research physics or more after that, and it's probably not worth the tech at that point. Likewise, I'd avoid Military tech like Military Tradition/Science, Steel, etc...
-However we need one military "ace" unit - basically something strong enough for barb busting and a war if absolutely needed (I'm pretty confident that in any war against the AI we'll have a tech edge). So I would shut down tech on the actual slider, but given representation and science slowly built up, over 50 turns or so we could tech rifling or chemistry, for rifles/grens, maybe trade with AI if they get something else. Then in the last chunk of turns before cultural victory we go to nationhood and draft an army if we haven't whatever, to be sure take over the furs or other resources, and hope we're good. If it turns out the other resources (silk, dye) are not accessible without attacking some AI overseas, this has to be revised. Discovering a backwards Isabella at least means one less potential AI threat, if we're lucky Isabella even has extra silks/dyes that she just trades, but don't know.

Still, overall I think we can have a victory by 400-450 with everything fulfilled. Things to watch out for Eldine at the end are getting Confucianism to any cities we conquer, and the AI all keeping state religion too. Once we take Liberalism many of these AI aren't so likely to go for Lib though, some like Saladin and Izzy thankfully love religion forever. (we probably use lib to get the most expensive thing we can, put it off a little while because it's not a straight race. Democracy is always a decent one for beaker count, though in this game it's less useful since we won't run either civic and we could write it off altogether if we just don't want the Statue/feel it's not worth the investment)

For the short term/next couple turnplayers - I still like CS (almost done) => Drama => Music, Drama because it makes music cheaper and we might as well get it on the way. Then Paper after that is probably good, that could be 30 turns out though. If we really want to trade a lot with the AI, we should make that call quickly - if we want to help them catch up on say Code of Laws/Aesthetics I'd take their gold now because the gold fuels us through Civil Service/Drama much faster. I would not sell Philosophy right now, don't sell Literature till Music is safe, and don't sell Civil Service cheaply - anything else for Feudalism or Metal Casting/Machinery or Theology or Construction/Engineering, is all good. Eldine is a peaceful goddess and we don't suffer by seeing others enlightened too.

Oh, and this last thing is entirely a call by the team, but I'm thinking after this next set maybe (turn 200) we go to 15 or 10 turn sets for the succession? Is that ok with everyone, do we want to rotate faster/do people mind? Anyway we're definitely on track to be able to do another couple hundred turns in a month or two and we're kinda checking in every half-set now so I'm thinking maybe fewer turns as things get busier for the turnplayer.

For that last matter unfortunately I'll probably be sparsely less active at the start of July for a week or two, hope that doesn't coincide right with a turn for me, but we've again got time, and besides everyone (well, Northern Hemisphere ;)) should enjoy their summer! :sunglasses:
 
For that last matter unfortunately I'll probably be sparsely less active at the start of July for a week or two, hope that doesn't coincide right with a turn for me, but we've again got time, and besides everyone (well, Northern Hemisphere ;)) should enjoy their summer! :sunglasses:

My summer should be well over by then. It usually finishes on the last day of the Leaving Cert. (why we call it exam weather over here:lol:)
 
I would defnitely sell CoL to Toku and Alphabet to Isabella, for whatever gold they have.
Aesthetics I'm not so sure on, it would want to be a decent amount of gold.
This will help us maximise the 'fair' trading diplo bonus.

Any GP we get, other than Scientists & Artists will need to be carefully considered.
I think I would want to keep any other GP for Eldine, except Engineers of course.

What I want for the next turnset is to go explore where Isabella might have come from.

I am happy to turn down the number of turns in a set to 10.
 
I just got a PM from IO last night, turns out he was incommunicado due to internet fail all this time. He'll be back up and running soon.
 
And here I am... How's it going? School's ending next week, so I'll have a LOT of time on my hands. I'm working some, but I'll be available a lot more. My internet adapter was lost the whole time, and without it, I can't play SGs on Civ. But I'm back now... hopefully you've done well, but I'm sure that's not a problem.

So yeah. Hello.
 
Welcome back, great to see you and not a problem, we've got a nice summer ahead anyway, and yes, I think we're still doing well, making our dwarven forefathers proud and whatnot.
 
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