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SGOTM 11 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 20, 2010.

  1. ForGreatJustice

    ForGreatJustice Master of the Grump

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    Well Earthling you and I off are off to good start as we seem to be thinking along the same lines. I also feel diplomacy could be the fastest way to win this game, and more of the "sure thing". Yes I know there is no such thing as a sure thing in Civ4, but here's the deal. If we go culture, we need wonders to win this game as fast as possible. Assuming the worst, we won't nab any early wonders, we waste our production and fall behind in infrastructure, military, and expansion. This can be crippling even on emperor if our surrounding areas are not good (I imagine desert area nearby).

    BTW, on epic emperor, what's the timing of hindu and buddhism being FIDL? On normal it's about 8 turns.
     
  2. dima42

    dima42 Prince

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    I don't remember the turn #'s on emperor (I want to say 16-18 on Buddhism, lots of variation on Hinduism), but I'd guess it's like 85% of getting hinduism first, 50% of getting buddhism first with gandhi on this kind of start. Obviously super-easy to run test cases if someone thinks it's worth not researching agri first
     
  3. Earthling

    Earthling Deity

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    I don't know the exact "turns" (by the way, also depends on map size I guess) but the answer is AI will usually beat you to buddhism first on Emperor; hindu you can get, but I don't like researching polytheism right at the start, more so when we have really good land our first worker could be working on. I think we could pick up a later religion like Confucianism mostly easy enough - and it's not that much of an investment in converting AI either, if we need to. Anyway, some AI is sure to get at least one other religion and having an AI to side against in war/get other AI to hate is acceptable anyway, let them fight over the earlier religions.

    As far as cultural goes - if we play things right, and there isn't really crazy map-edited stuff going on, we shouldn't find ourselves in a situation to lose a wonder race. If we get marble/stone we of course would be able to wrap those wonders up no problem. The concern over cultural is how fast/how efficient we can get it going compared to diplo. The more difficult diplo would be (multiple continents, unfavorable circumstances, like having to go conquer resources for Eldine) means cultural becomes the quicker win. Certainly all we'd have to do is get to around liberalism+nationalism in the tech tree; it then becomes a matter of is it quicker to tech all the way through Mass Media or just stop and build up the culture. Of course, if we really knew diplo was doable early on we could speed it up by being sure to pop great scientists all the time and managing expansion/production to gear for diplo faster, so it'll be something to discuss.
     
  4. ForGreatJustice

    ForGreatJustice Master of the Grump

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    Another reason why I don't like founding religions in general (also why I'm inexperienced with trying to found them :lol:) Running an early state for extra happy, shrine income vs. diplo modifiers of up to -4 for being in a heathen religion... hmmm... could lead to being a target for someone. Too risky.

    CoL and Philosophy, especially the latter, are reasonable to obtain since both are needed (CHs and Lib path). Philo I find hitting first quite often on emperor normal through a GS. CoL is harder to hit first without Oracle but not impossible. At least with CoL I'm not expecting to reach it first since the reason I want CoL are for the CHs which is needed at that stage of the game. Myst and Poly offer nothing you need in the early game.

    Good points. It's basically a "play it by ear" situation. We'll definitely know more by turn 100. By then I hope we'll know what landmass we're on, the # of AIs we have, the # of AIs left, the pace of the teching, GPs being born, religions FIDL messages, and our surrounding land. All of this will help paint the path we could choose to Eldine's Light.
     
  5. ForGreatJustice

    ForGreatJustice Master of the Grump

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    Well the save has been up for 24 hours. Let the warrior move debates begin! Also has anyone checked the save and confirmed that that is a forested flood plain?
     
  6. Brian Shanahan

    Brian Shanahan Permanoob

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    Not me I'm not touching the save until it's my turn incase I disqualify the team. I suggest our glorious captain should make a roster, and put up a victim I mean volunteer for the task.
     
  7. ForGreatJustice

    ForGreatJustice Master of the Grump

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    Well IO's first post listed the roster, we could just go in that order, with him leading off. I would move warrior SW, something intersting I think 2SW from warrior's current spot and he'll be able to see it.

    Some thoughts:
    After closer inspection of the screen shot, starting tile looks like a forested plain based on color (looks yellowish to me).

    Also noticed both corns touch the river, nice to get 1C. And there's an unforested plains hill bordering the river. Great starting tiles. SIP seems almost too good to be true. I wouldn't mind burning 1T to move the settler 1SE onto the hill to get more recon since this is epic speed. But you epic vets can severely correct me on if that is a stupid move :D

    Starting moves to me seem like start with Ag as first tech; depending on if buddhism is founded early or late we could debate going Med -> PH for oracle if we can find nearby marble. Otherwise we could just go conventional after Ag meaning BW -> wheel -> pottery.

    Worker first though it seems like.

    Another look at the screen shot makes me think 2SW of settler is a coast. Another reason to send the warrior 1SW to confirm. If so we may want to move the settler then away so we could fit a second city on that coast if it has seafood.

    We start with mining and mysticism. If we SIP, worker will have plenty to do with 3 tiles, allowing BW to finish before worker finishes improving so we wouldn't have to worry about an idle worker.
     
  8. Brian Shanahan

    Brian Shanahan Permanoob

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    Ok if we want to go with IO's roster we will.
    I'm not too sure about it with the green on the river edge of the tile, that usually dentotes FP.
    Worker first always I believe.
    2SW is coast or river mouth.
    On tech I think we are going for the Oracle sling to CoL, so that would probably mean your first choice.
    I think the best thing to do is for IO to pick up the save, move the warrior and then post a few screenies.
    Oh, yeah one last thing we need to keep away from hunting for a while (until we have a lot more than four warriors just in case).
     
  9. ForGreatJustice

    ForGreatJustice Master of the Grump

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    Good point about hunting, forgot about it. I bet there's ivory really close just to tempt us to research hunting before we get the 4 warriors :mischief:

    IO should move the warrior then post a new screenie. Too little info right now to discuss a definite course of action. But we should agree on where to move. Brian, you're saying also 1SW?

    As a side note, I've been playing a lot of 100 turn tests with Gandhi, just to get a feel of how to do openings with him on fractal starts. Let's just say I'll be leaning to all ya'lls wisdom for our venerable peacemonger:cry: Also I'm not used to playing with mysticism as a starting tech.
     
  10. Brian Shanahan

    Brian Shanahan Permanoob

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    I'd say SW too, with Nw being the second best choice, I'm guessing we wont find much other than extra info on the starting position SW.
     
  11. MatrixTheKitty

    MatrixTheKitty Skitty

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    I agree with moving the warrior SW.

    As for having mysticism as a starting tech, we can backtrade medi and poly without having to tech it (backtrading mysticism? :lol:) and we have access to monuments right away for culture goodness for our first expansions.
     
  12. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Yes, Yes & Yes
     
  13. ForGreatJustice

    ForGreatJustice Master of the Grump

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    Very true, very useful. I guess my main gripe is that having enough for your initial worker to do after the first improvement is very important. Nothing bothers me more than having your worker sit and be a spacebar punching bag until the next worker tech is researched.

    I know it's situational and all, and in this start and what we can see, the worker has three jobs to do before worrying about something else. That's plenty of time to let the next tech roll in. But in many other openings you may need two worker techs off the bat to be efficient. Also let's not forget that these workers have mobility, so they will consistently shave off 1-2 turns of the overall time to get an improvement done (that includes travel).

    I'm just b*tching and whining for my own inability to so far play with Gandhi effectively :lol: But I guess there is something to be said for those that love early Stonehenge :mischief:
     
  14. MatrixTheKitty

    MatrixTheKitty Skitty

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    Heh, I remember when I played as Gandhi on Chieftain on the Perfect World 2 mapscript. There were forests totally surrounding my capital. Once I got BW, my Fast Workers were the bomb.
     
  15. Earthling

    Earthling Deity

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    warrior SW fine by me; I too would like to see something get going, while it's still the weekend and I have time hang around and add to discussion ;)

    Anyway, I'm thinking that if it is a weird floodplains forest, then settler SE is probably the way to go; it might be the right call anyway as clearly to the NW there isn't much but forests, and we still get both corn to the SE at least (and a plains hill spot to settle). But definitely if the tile weren't on is 3:food:1:hammers: or something might as well move onto the plains hill and work that. Otherwise I'm sure IO will do great as a first turnplayer (stopped myself from typing I/O there ;) so good luck.

    I'm personally kinda against Stonehenge, for these reasons
    -with Agriculture first and two corn, we become a settler/worker pump like right away. Shifting to production unless we have copper/a good mining resource in the BFC is probably less efficient, but we can't really build/slave Stonehenge with a food surplus efficiently as that's kinda a waste too
    -But more to the point, I don't see the real need for Stonehenge. In some ways, it's even harmful, because it plus the Oracle puts us really heavy on Great Prophets as our great people. In fact it also probably delays our timing/production on the Oracle a little too. I'd much rather get a good Oracle => CoL or CS beeline and then the early culture from Stonehenge isn't a big loss (plus we'd have settled more cities in all likelihood). Perhaps I should help test how viable getting Civil Service on the Oracle is, but we could of course get CoL at the very least.

    Anyway I'm still really not sure whether culture or diplo will be better, but from researching around/some old and test games one thing I am kinda sure of is if we want to do culture we should shut off tech early. Unless it's absolutely necessary to get the fur/other resources, against Emperor AI we shouldn't need to keep on teching/go get corporations and infantry and railroads and so on if we do culture; we'd have liberalism => Democracy or something and just be done, with towns and as many great artists as we could get.

    But the real alternative speed-wise is avoiding this altogether, and popping Great Scientists from the start and beelining Mass Media - that's the question. If we can get three good city spots and have marble for instance I think that leans it towards culture but don't want to rule Diplo out.
     
  16. ForGreatJustice

    ForGreatJustice Master of the Grump

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    Hahaha earthling. I was totally being sarcastic about stonehenge. I never go for it exactly the same reasons you listed. Our cap, even 1SE with nothing else revealed, will still give us great production for settlers/workers. It also gives us great whipping power to build us infrastructure/units if we can supplement the two corn with an extra farm or two. With the hills mined, we can run a mix of farms, mines, and cottages, a hybrid economy of sorts.

    I also can concur with your analysis of diplo vs. culture. I ran a bunch of test games this week (had too much time on my hands after I inured myself from playing ultimate frisbee earlier in the week :lol:) and I found that pop scientists for mass media is much faster than teching it straight up. It does use up quite a few GS though, and we'll need to save 4GPs for the end (kinda of a double-edged sword of sorts). It requires a strong GP farm with a few wonders besides the GLib and Parthenon to make up for the lack of PHILO. It also requires Pacifism, thus a state religion, making diplomacy potentially a touchy situation.

    Culture, I tried two ways. One just like you said, run culture slider after getting democracy for SoL. The second, kept teching through to the media wonders (Broadway, Eiffel Tower, Hollywood) for the extra culture push and to have UN for backup. So far, conclusion is second is a half-baked approach, and played like so (unless I was doing something terribly wrong). The first way atm is faster can't argue with a 90 or 100% culture slider. That's just my initial observations so don't take it as definitive, please don't! :please: I'll keep testing just to be sure.

    What I have noticed though, it's a lot easier to build the culture heavy wonders if you have marble at least, which also enhance the GPPs of the GP farm. So in a way, I think it's possible to play a middle-of-the-road style until we can assess if we are going to have three strong production cities or not.
     
  17. Earthling

    Earthling Deity

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    Ok sure, I agree, just wanted to give my thoughts on the opening seeing as everyone was and the first turnplayer in the rotation could get going, I'm happy to see things get started.

    I'm thinking from the general timelines on a bunch of games (lucky for me I play epic pretty much like all the time on my own SP, so I'm happy enough with the timing) that Oracle between turns 100-120 (or of course earlier if we like/have a reason too) is pretty safe, and nabbing CoL is fine. If tech is really proceeding along and we have happiness/resources in line we could probably manage to Oracle something like Currency or of course the Monarchy => Feudalism snare instead if we thought we wanted that. But thinking about it and being at Emperor level I do think risking all the way to civil service may be a bit much so I'd settle for a safe Oracle and a solid tech anyway; then maybe if we have Marble we'd get plenty of solid cultural and economic wonders like the Parthenon, GLibrary, Mausoleum and down towards Sistine Chapel/Music/Nationalism that way (ir we want culture, that is). But again I just wish good luck to the first turn players up and we'll be off to a fine start I'm sure.
     
  18. IdiotsOpposite

    IdiotsOpposite Boom, headshot.

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    Haha, keep the strategizing up, I think... Sorry I've been gone, but I've been playing laser tag with friends all day, and I have the bruises to show it. I'll play in about 19 hours or so if that'll be OK.
     
  19. ForGreatJustice

    ForGreatJustice Master of the Grump

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    No not okay! :joking: Anyway IO is the lineup as you written it also the play order? If so, you should move the warrior (1SW) and post a screenie for us to digest and discuss and regurgitate before you play the entire turnset. Also we seem to be in consensus for the settler 1SE (at least for recon) but first move the warrior and let's see. The suspense is killing us.
     
  20. Brian Shanahan

    Brian Shanahan Permanoob

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    As justice says wait a while and post the initila warrior move before doing anything. We need to look at the game properly. I would much rather miss the 24/48 on this game than risk getting a bad set in from lack of advice (for myself anyway).
     

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