SGOTM 11 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

[ForGreatJustice]

Well this is strange...

I decided to run AC and I got 66 errors under Vanilla and Warlord but none for BTS. Yet I receive no errors on opening, no warnings of "file can't be uploaded" etc. Everythign fine for me. Does the Vanilla and Warlords Assets have to be error free as well?

@Earthling and neil
Well I'm you guys are better city placers than I am Settling on marble makes so much sense, especially taking forever to build anything on Epic (yes I know everything is scaled to be longer, but still I'm an impatient man) And I was thinking earlier to how my red dot would have to rely on high pop for whipping meaning HR. With the forests, at least we could build a granary and lib in decent time. I'm not sure if that city would be good for GLib, might want to save it for a high production city that can be one of three legendaries.

It is early to tell if culture is indeed the way we'll proceed, but again, like you said we're definitely given the tools to do so.

Finally, I would like to complete this game fulfilling all winning conditions as much as possible. Meaning I would too also save our 1 of 2 DoWs in the name of obtaining a critical resource or whittle down a bit if becoming too powerful, and one to spare in case we're forced to DoW on someone for the sake of preventing negative diplomacy with someone we fear and asked for our assistance. We still need to scout to our east, and the 2nd warrior is in 3 turns so that'll help.

Final edit: I'll post a new dotmap of what was suggested, since you two are in agreement and I'm sold on your guys suggestions.

 

[neilmeister]

OK, I agree about Zara. No point committing ourselves too early.

As for the settling, why would you go for the Marble city first? The wonders it will speed up all come quite a bit later. My reasoning for going 1 NW of the GP farm first (we agree on the location) is:
1- we can chop some infrastructure, and it should grow strongly.
2- it is less exposed in case of barbs.

I'm not worried about the extra silvers. No matter where our capital went, any city that gets both extra silvers will be really crap. Only the fish and a single non-FW grassland for food. By the time we can actually trade an extra silver, we can just settle on one of them.

 

[Earthling]

You're right of course. I was only thinking - meant Marble first before Stone if we had to choose; certainly the pig/fish GP city would be fine to get up, slave some buildings like a library etc... so Marble might be the third city or something. And yeah, cap having silver anyway is fine and I'm not too worried about the tundra either, could even be lolzworthy if Zara settles a city which gets razed/eaten by our culture later.

 

[neilmeister]

You're right of course. I was only thinking - meant Marble first before Stone if we had to choose; certainly the pig/fish GP city would be fine to get up, slave some buildings like a library etc... so Marble might be the third city or something. And yeah, cap having silver anyway is fine and I'm not too worried about the tundra either, could even be lolzworthy if Zara settles a city which gets razed/eaten by our culture later.

Ahh, I see what you mean. Totally agree that the marble should come before stone.

The stone is close enough that it might tempt a few teams to settle next to it first.

BW in 2 turns, so more over-analysis will be required when/if it shows up in 'our' lands

I decided to run AC and I got 66 errors under Vanilla and Warlord but none for BTS. Yet I receive no errors on opening, no warnings of "file can't be uploaded" etc. Everythign fine for me. Does the Vanilla and Warlords Assets have to be error free as well?

They shouldn't make any difference. As each variant has its own, separate, Assets directory. But it means you wont be competing in a Vanilla or Warlords GOTM/HoF game.

 

[ForGreatJustice]

Alright here's something updated:
v. 1.01


v. 1.01 updates:
Red our GPfarm is 1NW as suggested.
Orange, marble city is placed on marble as suggested
Yellow, 2nd GPfarm is placed to get both fish and deer.
Blue untouched
Pink untouched (too little to know yet for the far west, what if the land continues west into more AIs )
Got rid of inner core of dots, that one fog tile in the middle is my fault and is thus screwing me up in terms of placement. Let's just say that if we want the Mids, I'm sure we'll come up with something

 

[ForGreatJustice]

The stone is close enough that it might tempt a few teams to settle next to it first.

I hope they see the power of the Mids and go for it. I for one believe shiny marble is more powerful long term.

BW in 2 turns, so more over-analysis will be required when/if it shows up in 'our' lands

Might I suggest the next player take a pause for discussion if indeed we do happen to be settled on a copper hill? That would be Brian if indeed IO and I have swapped places and is going last.

shouldn't make any difference. As each variant has its own, separate, Assets directory. But it means you wont be competing in a Vanilla or Warlords GOTM/HoF game.

Well now, no Vanilla or Warlords for me, harumpf!

 

[neilmeister]

Might I suggest the next player take a pause for discussion if indeed we do happen to be settled on a copper hill? That would be Brian if indeed IO and I have swapped places and is going last.

Yes, agreed. Over to you Tall Dwarf.

Well now, no Vanilla or Warlords for me, harumpf!

I didn't think you would care.....


Actually, what about the timings.
I am normally a big fan of switching to a Settler as soon as hit hit pop2. It normally pays off, but it depends on how long it takes from pop2 to pop3 and how many turns quicker the settler would get produced if we waited until pop3.
The other option is to build another worker, and we could then chop the first few settlers out in quick time. Actually, I forgot we have Fast Workers, so I think this is the best option.

And I am sure that single fog tile holds a FP Corn or something equally unbelievable....

Tech path might be: AH -> Writing or Wheel

Thoughts????

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

FP Corn or something equally unbelievable....

Yeah, FP with no river is pretty unbelievable. and Impossible.

 

[neilmeister]

Yeah, FP with no river is pretty unbelievable. and Impossible.

You obviously didn't play BOTM28....
Our friendly map maker world builded it into our map, next to a stone....

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

Our friendly map maker world builded it into our map, next to a stone....

O_o wut

 

[ForGreatJustice]

Relevant info: Settler = 149 P, growth to 3 pop = 36F, warrior = 22H, worker = 90P

@ 2pop, work both farmed corn for surplus 10F + 2H from cap = 12 P / turn
That's 13 turns without including overflow for the settler (someone please tell me if that's good or not for epic speed)

These numbers are to compare speeds to get first settler and hit 3 pop.

Scenario 1, build settler @ 2pop
-12P/turn x 13 turns we get 156 P, resulting in 1 settler and +7H from overflow. 36F needed to hit size 3, -so 36F difference, 10F surplus, 4 turns to hit pop 3 with +4F overflow.
Totals: 16 turns hits pop 3 with 1 settler and +4F and +7H (gone into a warrior or something). Settler produced in 13 turns.

Scenario 2, growth to 3pop while building warrior, switch to settler @ 3pop
-10F surplus means growth in 4turns. Warrior gets 8H/22H at 2H/turn rate. Growth to 3pop, work silver with 4F overflow.
-13turns for settler still at 3pop. Why? 8F surplus now with 2H extra from silver giving 4H, total 12P/turn. Starting from 0H without any overflow
-156P in, 7H overflow, but 13t of 6C.
Totals: 17 turns hits pop 3 with 1 settler and +7H (put into warrior, 15H/22H when back to warrior), +4F surplus, and +78C more than scenario 2. Settler produced in 17 turns.

So if you want to argue for a faster 2nd settler, then yes scenario 1 is best because you'll get the settler out faster by 4 turns. However this costs you quite a bit of potential commerce. If you are looking at what things like will be at pop 3, a reasonable pop to be at for producing, then you'll be producing the settler 4 turns slower but can utilize 78 C from 13t of silver. This results in 5 turns faster on teching something like masonry.

There's the math, I hope it makes sense. I'm pretty sure this time my numbers are right, but point out any errors. To me, scenario 2 is the best overall approach, but we might have to opt for scenario 1 if we feel Zara will REX to us.

And with that, good night gentlemen!

EDIT Stop making me do mental calculations again for a Fast Worker!?!?!

ANNNNYWAYS... Tech path: BW -> Wheel -> Pottery. I feel the need to hook up our silver asap.

 

[neilmeister]

Wow, great calculations FGJ. Thanks for highlighting my laziness
So, it effectively comes down to 78C and half of a warrior, or city2 four turns earlier. On emperor we will probably need the fogbusters earlier. OK, wait to pop3 to build the settler.

Also, we do not need to hook up the silver yet. Yes we definitely need to mine it, but we do not need to road it just yet. AH is much more important than Wheel, because it will:
- influence where we put cities
- allow city2 to grow

Can I suggest a compromise:
BW -> AH -> Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing

EDIT
I am going to add scenario 3, build a worker @ 2pop, and chop a settler out when the worker is done. Now, where is my calculator.....

 

[ForGreatJustice]

Wow, great calculations FGJ. Thanks for highlighting my laziness
So, it effectively comes down to 78C and half of a warrior, or city2 four turns earlier. On emperor we will probably need the fogbusters earlier. OK, wait to pop3 to build the settler.

Exactly, and now we know that it's 2>number AIs cities that determines the barb incursions so we should get the fogbusters out asap.

Also, we do not need to hook up the silver yet. Yes we definitely need to mine it, but we do not need to road it just yet. AH is much more important than Wheel, because it will:
- influence where we put cities
- allow city2 to grow

You're right. I for some reason thought I had already teched AH. Again stupid normal timing transition!

Can I suggest a compromise:
BW -> AH -> Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing

Absolutely, gotta find those horses for effective fogbusters.

EDIT
I am going to add scenario 3, build a worker @ 2pop, and chop a settler out when the worker is done. Now, where is my calculator.....

I really hate you but I shall do so RIGHT NOW.

Edit: Move calcs to one long post

 

[ForGreatJustice]

For ease of use I'm copying and pasting my calculations on one nice post: Love me

Relevant info: Settler = 149 P, growth to 3 pop = 36F, warrior = 22H, worker = 90P

@ 2pop, work both farmed corn for surplus 10F + 2H from cap = 12 P / turn
@ 3pop, working both farmed corn and mined silver for surplus of 10F + 2H = 12p / turn

Scenarios 1 and 2 compare directly with each other. These numbers are to compare speeds to get first settler and hit 3 pop.

Scenario 1, build settler @ 2pop
-12P/turn x 13 turns we get 156 P, resulting in 1 settler and +7H from overflow. 36F needed to hit size 3, -so 36F difference, 10F surplus, 4 turns to hit pop 3 with +4F overflow.
Totals: 16 turns hits pop 3 with 1 settler and +4F and +7H (gone into a warrior or something). Settler produced in 13 turns.

Scenario 2, growth to 3pop while building warrior, switch to settler @ 3pop
-10F surplus means growth in 4turns. Warrior gets 8H/22H at 2H/turn rate. Growth to 3pop, work silver with 4F overflow.
-13turns for settler still at 3pop. Why? 8F surplus now with 2H extra from silver giving 4H, total 12P/turn. Starting from 0H without any overflow
-156P in, 7H overflow, but 13t of 6C.
Totals: 17 turns hits pop 3 with 1 settler and +7H (put into warrior, 15H/22H when back to warrior), +4F surplus, and +78C more than scenario 2. Settler produced in 17 turns.

Scenario 3 compares with scenario 2 in that both build settler at 3pop.

Scenario 3: Worker now @2pop, growth to 3pop with warrior, switch to settler at 3pop, insert a chop of 30H during settler build
-@2pop build worker at 12H/turn for 8 turns giving 6H overflow. Worker complete.
-Switch to warrior, 4turns for growth at 10F surplus, 4F overflow, hit 3pop. Warrior build gets 8H+6H = 14H/22H
-@3pop build settler, with a worker chop of 30H (imagine just one chop taking 5 turns) slow build settler for 5turns to 60H, add chop for 30H, 90H invested, 59H remaining. 5 turns left remaining giving 1H overflow to warrior now at 15H/22H. Also don't forget 10turns of +6C from silver for +60C.
Totals: 22turns, 3pop, worker, settler, warrior at 15H/22H and +60C. Settler finishes in 22turns

Scenario 4 compares with scenario 1 in that both build settler at 2pop

Scenario 4: Worker now @2pop, settler immediately after, 2 chops along way to build settler, grow to 3pop building warrior
-@2pop build worker at 12H/turn for 8 turns giving 6H overflow. Worker complete.
-still @2pop switch to settler with 6H overflow costs 143H. Slow build for 5 turns for 60H into Settler.
-2 workers complete 2 chops by turn 5 and add another 60H from chops to bring up to 120H. 3turns left for 7H overflow, settler built.
-10F surplus for 36 F for growth to 3pop still 4 turns for 4F overflow.
Totals: 20 turns for worker, settler, and 3pop. +4F and 7H/22H into warrior. Worker finishes in 8 turns, settler finishes in 16 turns, growth to 3pop at 20 turns

 

[ForGreatJustice]

I'll post my opinions here:
I'll pick 2 because it's the unique one of the 4 to compare against. And because it's really hard to argue when you can shave off 5 turns off a tech and help prolong our REXing phase.
vs. 1: Commerce is issue
vs. 3: Way too long to get settler out.
vs. 4: A close competitor. 1 turn faster and with 2 workers in the end. The worker could go travel with the settler. However, who will protect them?

Unless our endangered warrior survives to scout about 4-5 tiles more of eastern fog, we must have to sacrifice scouting or protection with how we use our next warrior. At least the 2nd worker will be used efficiently in that it will immediately start improving the 2nd city.

So between 2 and 4... tough call... +78C and 3rd warrior born 2 turns sooner vs. 2nd worker. Really tough call.

EDITS: I apologize for edits. The biggest mistake was that for scenario 4 I had listed all its accomplishments done in 16 turns. That was wrong, it's 20 turns to get up to pop 3.

 

[neilmeister]

I'll post my opinions here:
I'll pick 2 because it's the unique one of the 4 to compare against. And because it's really hard to argue when you can shave off 5 turns off a tech and help prolong our REXing phase.
vs. 1: Commerce is issue
vs. 3: Way too long to get settler out.
vs. 4: A close competitor. 1 turn faster and with 2 workers in the end. The worker could go travel with the settler. However, who will protect them?

Unless our endangered warrior survives to scout about 4-5 tiles more of eastern fog, we must have to sacrifice scouting or protection with how we use our next warrior. At least the 2nd worker will be used efficiently in that it will immediately start improving the 2nd city.

So between 2 and 4... tough call... +78C and 3rd warrior born 2 turns sooner vs. 2nd worker. Really tough call.

I'm impressed FGJ, you really have run the numbers quite well...

Me personally, I go for option 4, every time.
We have 2 warriors, so we have enough protection for now. As long as they don't go everywhere exploring. This is exactly the kind of risk that can pay off big time.

BTW, I hope you enjoyed your 7 hours sleep ..

 

[ForGreatJustice]

More like 6, my students are working on their projects this past week and change so i've been online posting more often during the day.

There isn't too much advantage in teching something 5 turns faster if we had nothing for our workers to do. With AH in after the 2nd worker helps chop, we won't have to worry too much. This start offers nice variations which makes could play out significantly different if you were to compare all four paths in four different games.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

So I am looking at the calculations. I will get the save in a moment.
But from discussion so far I'm looking at FGJs scenario 2 for settler (build warrior to 3 pop then settler).
For tech I'm looking either

BW -> AH -> Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing

, from Neil, or BW->Myst->Poly->Priest for the Oracle slingshot. Personally if we want a religion of our own and conversion of Zara to pacific ways then the Oracle is best. In a standard game I'd probably go the other way.

Settling; well if I'm going Oracle I'm either settling on the marble next or 1SE of it (less water 1SE). Other option is to get the GP farm started now.

Builds: spam a few spawn-bust warriors out of Delhi for a while and get city 2 up and running.

Turnset length; 20 turns? 10? 25?

My plan is to download the save soon, and leave it until tomorrow about 3 p.m. Irish time. The full report may have to wait though to Thursday, as I'm up the walls tomorrow. I'll get a quick Autologesque one tomorrow for definite but I may not have time for a full report. But in the meantime feel free to pick apart my sketchy plans and decide on a better one if available.

 

[neilmeister]

So I am looking at the calculations. I will get the save in a moment.
But from discussion so far I'm looking at FGJs scenario 2 for settler (build warrior to 3 pop then settler).
For tech I'm looking either , from Neil, or BW->Myst->Poly->Priest for the Oracle slingshot. Personally if we want a religion of our own and conversion of Zara to pacific ways then the Oracle is best. In a standard game I'd probably go the other way.

Settling; well if I'm going Oracle I'm either settling on the marble next or 1SE of it (less water 1SE). Other option is to get the GP farm started now.

Builds: spam a few spawn-bust warriors out of Delhi for a while and get city 2 up and running.

Turnset length; 20 turns? 10? 25?

My plan is to download the save soon, and leave it until tomorrow about 3 p.m. Irish time. The full report may have to wait though to Thursday, as I'm up the walls tomorrow. I'll get a quick Autologesque one tomorrow for definite but I may not have time for a full report. But in the meantime feel free to pick apart my sketchy plans and decide on a better one if available.

I don't think religion is an issue. Either Zara gets one, which will spread to us, or he doesn't. If he doesn't, then we can wait for Confucionism to come later on.

This is probably just my prejudice, but getting writing, building a library, running a scientist specialist, founding Academy early, is usually very powerful.

On emperor, you usually do not need to explore too much, other than to see where the next city or 2 will go. If there are AI's on our landmass, they will discover us.
So, we have 2 fogbusters already, and we only have to worry about 2 directions -> N & W.

This is very important, the early turns are crucial. I want to see what the others have to say before we make any decisions on what to do.

As for turnset, we could do the same as our other game, 25, 15, 10, 10....

 

[Brian Shanahan]

I have downloaded the save from the scores page, so this is the got it.
@Neil Earthling was positing on the Oracle CoL sling so that was the reason for my alternative tech path (though I suspect that I forgot about Masonry there ).

At everybody, I can always put back the playing time if needed for discussions, but discussions and a general plan there will be before my set is played.