SGOTM 11 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

[ForGreatJustice]

I think go 20 turns is fine.

Also I think I'm leaning towards neil's assessment of option 4.

I favor conventional path to get to writing fast... but...

If we truly want oracle, then marble city would need to be 3rd city, and we'll need masonry to take advantage of cost reduction. But we will need AH to get our cities up faster. Also where would we build oracle? Dehli?

So compromise of the two would be...

BW -> AH -> Med -> PH -> Masonry -> Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing

That's a long way to go to writing... but having a 6C tile in the cap is great. Since roading will take forever for that distance and fishing and sailing would be required to to get marble home faster than roading, it would be a long time to get marble hooked up. So it looks like the Oracle, should we want it, would be built on chops.

Also Oracle build date on normal emperor is about 1000bc. What I have noticed so far in epic speed in test games is that while there are more turns, the year intervals between turns are shorter. In the end the dates of religions FIDL or wonders being built stay pretty much the same. We are at 3375 BC. Can someone calculate how many turns does it take to get to 1000 BC on epic from 3375 BC? Because then we can calculate based on research turns how long it will take for us to hit PH and calculate our chances for Oracle.

So Brian I would humbly request you hold off a few more hours if you can and allow others to chime in. I know it's almost 3pm your time but I think we have quite a few -7GMT players in this group plus Neil who must be past midnight?

 

[Earthling]

Thoughts - I like getting another worker before the settler, it will pay off in the long run. We could send this worker right out with the settler to get those pigs up in the second city anyway.

Obviously I don't see any way we don't grow to size three and work the silver though, it's such a good tile. So grow to three => worker => settler =>more warriors/workers/settlers

As for tech, I still want to get the Oracle, but we don't need it right away. We could probably tech AH and maybe the wheel, and then go Meditation/Poly => Priesthood => Writing (Writing prerequisite for much Oracling anyway). But we could have the Oracle before 100 anyway and the silver allows this tech to be pretty easy so I don't see why not.

I'm happy with whatever we decide on turnsets, too much discussion couldn't hurt. Looks like good times ahead, and good luck, those are just my thoughts.

Edit - regarding Oracle timing, turn 100 on epic is almost always safe. Sometimes the AI won't get it till 120+ Stonehenge often goes around 75ish but again can easily be later, but I don't think we're too worried about SH right now. But all we need is the marble and a city with about 3 forests to chop and we're mostly good on the Oracle.

On the above techpath - if we have time to get Pottery, I don't see a reason to delay - put off Medi and PH till right before writing then. However I'm not sure getting Pottery and then going for PH gives us a lot of time, we'll have to see how fast the techs are going if we'll have time to do that and get writing and the Oracle built with a safe margin. I suppose we could forgo the Oracle of course, skip that religious line and head straight to Math/Aesthetics/Literature for a ton of other wonders (then again we could always Oracle something on that path too instead of Confucianism, if we wished. See what Zara does religion wise will help on that call).

 

[neilmeister]

Yep, its almost 1am in Oz. Almost time for me to check out. I must admit though, it is interesting to wake up and see 2 pages of new posts.... thats why I am getting my 2 cents in now.

Normally, Oracle will not be built until close to 1000BC. So I agree with Earthling, we should have plenty of time to get it. Also, if we do build Oracle, we want a worthwhile tech, there is no point doing it if we can only get something crappy.

BW -> AH -> Wheel -> Religion tech -> PH -> Writing -> Maybe CoL -> Free CS.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

So Brian I would humbly request you hold off a few more hours if you can and allow others to chime in. I know it's almost 3pm your time but I think we have quite a few -7GMT players in this group plus Neil who must be past midnight?

Not playing today, the plan was 3-4p.m. tomorrow at the earliest (giving about 24 hours of discussion), but then only if a plan was up, as I realised about the time differences. I was just getting the save now (haven't even opened it) just to avoid future problems.

 

[ForGreatJustice]

ARGH!!! Alright then, here's another possible build. I present to you:

Scenario 5: Growth to pop 3 building warrior, switch to worker at pop 3 with one chop, and then build settler at pop 3 with two chops
-4 turns of 40F to hit pop 3. Building warrior for 4turns resulting in 8H/22H. Switch to worker.
-12 H/turn for 90 H means 8 turns for worker with 6H overflow. However with worker chopping by 5 turns in, extra 30 H on top of 60H invested from 5 turns of slow build, worker built in 6 turns. Then build settler. No overflow
-12 H/turn for 149 H means 13 turns for settler with 7H overflow. However with TWO workers chopping by 5 turns in, extra 60 H on top of 60 H invested from 5 turns of slow build, need 29 H more. 3turns more on slow build for settler to get 7H overflow.
Totals: pop 3, 1 worker, 1 settler all in 18 turns along with 15H/22H into warrior. Worker comes in 6 turns, settler in 18 turns. WE ALSO GET 14 TURNS OF SILVER WORKING (6c/t x 14t) FOR +84C.

Now with this, I choose 5 as the best overall. However we do lose 3 forests. 90 H of forests towards a worker/settler essentially.

Edit Talking about religion possibilities. I'm not sure on ZY's behavior regarding religions. He doesn't start with mysticism so he's not likely to have either Hinduism or Buddhism in this game. Both went around the time I would expect a religious loving AI would tech it. The only religions I see ZY realistically founding are Judaism (not likely I feel) or Confucianism (more likely). So what I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't rely on him to spread one to us, unless he has a neighbor further east that is one of the religion loving AIs. Personally I do hope he has another neighbor so we don't find ourselves in the AI tech monopoly trading hole too much.

Also not to state the obvious too much but give in to demands. ZY is not a crazy warring AI like many others so let's keep him that way and become loving friends. My only worry is the possibility of there isn't much land out east and Zara is coastal and he'll be forced to expand towards us.

 

[Earthling]

Wait, how is 5 different from 4? I thought option 4 was already:

Grow to 3 (tiles farmed and mined) => build worker (chop with first worker) => build settler (chop with both)

In any case I support both/either of those, if it matches above. Namely - don't stunt growth at 2, and build a second worker before the settler (I would send the second worker to the second city with the settler after that though)

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

BW->Myst->Poly->Priest

You silly man, we start with Mysticism!

 

[ForGreatJustice]

Earthling: The difference is this:
Scenario 4: Worker now @2pop, settler immediately after, 2 chops along way to build settler, grow to 3pop building warrior
-@2pop build worker at 12H/turn for 8 turns giving 6H overflow. Worker complete.
-still @2pop switch to settler with 6H overflow costs 143H. Slow build for 5 turns for 60H into Settler.
-2 workers complete 2 chops by turn 5 and add another 60H from chops to bring up to 120H. 3turns left for 7H overflow, settler built.
-10F surplus for 36 F for growth to 3pop still 4 turns for 4F overflow.
Totals: 20 turns for worker, settler, and 3pop. +4F and 7H/22H into warrior. Worker finishes in 8 turns, settler finishes in 16 turns, growth to 3pop at 20 turns

vs. this:

Scenario 5: Growth to pop 3 building warrior, switch to worker at pop 3 with one chop, and then build settler at pop 3 with two chops
-4 turns of 40F to hit pop 3. Building warrior for 4turns resulting in 8H/22H. Switch to worker.
-12 H/turn for 90 H means 8 turns for worker with 6H overflow. However with worker chopping by 5 turns in, extra 30 H on top of 60H invested from 5 turns of slow build, worker built in 6 turns. Then build settler. No overflow
-12 H/turn for 149 H means 13 turns for settler with 7H overflow. However with TWO workers chopping by 5 turns in, extra 60 H on top of 60 H invested from 5 turns of slow build, need 29 H more. 3turns more on slow build for settler to get 7H overflow.
Totals: pop 3, 1 worker, 1 settler all in 18 turns along with 15H/22H into warrior. Worker comes in 6 turns, settler in 18 turns. WE ALSO GET 14 TURNS OF SILVER WORKING (6c/t x 14t) FOR +84C.

The short version:
Option 4 chooses to build worker and settler on pop 2. Option 5 is the only option that chooses to go to 3 pop THEN build worker and settler. Option 1 only builds settler after growing to 3 pop. Thus why option 5 is most desirable of the five choices now.

 

[neilmeister]

I can't agrue with the maths. Getting off to a flying start is imperative.

Option 5 sounds like we get to eat our cake, and have it to....

I'm getting off the option 4 bandwagon, and onto option 5's

 

[MatrixTheKitty]

THE MATH

IT BURNS USSSS

But yeah option 5 sure why not.

 

[Earthling]

I didn't realize the option four was what it was apparently, and as I said before I supported worker as size three, so obviously this new plan is the way to go then.

 

[ForGreatJustice]

Also the difference is the chopping. Essentially I could do an option 6 just to have Matrix melt away Essentially, chop worker and settler at 2 pop, EXACT SAME TURNS REQUIRED because of the surplus doesn't change. At 2 pop 10 surplus of food. At 3 pop 8 but we also get 2 extra hammers that would come from silver. Therefore this variation is exactly the same as option 5, but the growth comes 4 turns after having worker and settler built, not before as in option 5. Plus the biggest reason why 5 is the winner... the silver's 6C contribution. How can you argue having your cake, eating it, and then have an after meal smoke? +84C for 14turns can translate into more beakers.

 

[ForGreatJustice]

Oh as a side note, just in case any of you were wondering what would it take to build the oracle as fast as possible. Two options, and I'll spare the math this time.

Option 1 involves building it at the marble city which is on top of the marble. Just ran several trials and the fastest I could get was 20 turns. Simply, work the cows, improve it while working that tile and making oracle. Improve rice afterwards, then chop the one forest. On turn 20 you can get an oracle.

Option 2 is to straight up build the Oracle in Dehli without marble at 14H per turn, costing 225H about 16 turns. That's not including chopping.

Option 2 is the better solution long term. Why? Well the marble city does not have good production and without a GE will never get another high culture wonder. Dehli having the Oracle will step up as Legendary City candidate #1. Plus we may need to do a culture battle with ZY if he chooses to expand towards us.

So in other words, if we want the Oracle badly, for the next 55 turns, we pretty much have to tech Masonry, Med/Poly, PH, AH, and Writing (just for economy and to unlock CoL) all for the Oracle to bulb CoL. If we can do that by turn 80, well now... just something to think about.

One forest at Dehli can chop off 2 turns, so let's use one or two, but spare the rest for other infrastructure.

 

[neilmeister]

Does Delhi have 14H per turn?

I have no issue with going for an early Oracle, but I would suggest getting The Wheel after AH so that our workers can road our land up for us. We don't ever want them having nothing to do.

IMO, slow buildng the Oracle when we have Marble close by is not very efficient, or logical really. This will cost us in terms of expansion!

 

[ForGreatJustice]

Dehli can have 14H per turn if we chop two grass hills and mine them, and mine the tundra hill. So this would have to be done before we start the Oracle. Those two chops can go into something like a library if we tech writing before PH, which I think we should do.

Oops I forgot about the Wheel, another consideration as well that makes the timing very strict and makes the Oracle tough to get started 55 turns from now (turn 80).

Nope it's not logical, hence why it works! No seriously I understand what you mean. If there is a way to get the roads made between Marble City and Dehli mostly complete by the start of building the Oracle, by the Gods we must do it! It's 6 tiles of roading, 18 turns of roading, and there is no river that is shared by both Dehli and Marble city. I'm just assuming that along the way to the Oracle, we'll have hopefully built two more settlers, three more workers, and enough warriors to keep around for a reunion on some furs in a few thousand years from now.

And more on teching. So let's assume this was the tech path we chose:
BW -> AH -> Wheel -> Writing -> Med -> PH

Since we're halfway done with BW, total is around 1118 beakers give or take a couple (I estimated on remaining beakers left for BW). We would have, to be safe, 55 turns to accumulate that much beakers. It looks like a lot because it is, but that's based on just one city. We'll need to get 2nd city up fast and making us commerce. Yes a few libraries would help with this, maybe making Writing before Wheel more necessary.

I say it's a pretty tight squeeze since this path leaves out Pottery. Again I'm just posting up my thoughts on what if.... Personally, I say we have no shot at it from this current point unless we choose to chop like madmen. Otherwise, at this rate, looks like to fund such an ambitiously fast tech we might need to settle 2nd city on one of the silvers

 

[neilmeister]

Well, its great your floating ideas, especially when you do the maths for us

 

[ForGreatJustice]

Well now that you mentioned it, it's great to be playing this and our SG because in some ways they can be used as reference to the other. So the ideas just keep pouring in, and at some point I'll start confusing the two games

I don't know, my mind explodes with ideas. Just ask Brian and IO

 

[neilmeister]

and at some point I'll start confusing the two games

I already have a few times...

 

[neilmeister]

I say it's a pretty tight squeeze since this path leaves out Pottery. Again I'm just posting up my thoughts on what if.... Personally, I say we have no shot at it from this current point unless we choose to chop like madmen. Otherwise, at this rate, looks like to fund such an ambitiously fast tech we might need to settle 2nd city on one of the silvers

We will see how we go. It's still early days.

Settling on the silver really bad move. We have a no growth city, the only food tile we have is 2 squares from the city, so won't be available until the city pops its borders. So, we would have a city that would only work a silver square, and stay at 1 pop for a really long time. The city maintenance on Emporer is starting to hurt, so every early city we found has to be really worth it. This is why we can't just put the cities where they would fit best in a long term game, we must put them down where they can be effective asap. So 2nd city on the silver could actually reduce our tech rate, as we would need to pay the maintenance, which would be more than the cities income for a very long time.

 

[Earthling]

I don't see why 55 turns is a limit at all, or am I not following again?

We're at 25 right now right, and so if all the tech was done turn 80-90 we could easily chop the Oracle with likely lots of time to spare against AIs? If it's something like writing wouldn't be finished in that timeframe - well if we don't finish writing till turn 90 or something but the Oracle's not finished till then either it's not so much of a problem.

Anyway, for tech calculations the prereq bonuses aren't something to be ignored which is why I'm not sure when exactly we want writing - it saves us some beakers if we pick up pottery/PH first, since that multiplies into our research when we research writing. But the short answer is I think with the silver we have enough to get all the necessary techs - and in the short term we should get AH and the Wheel regardless, so if that leads you all to decide to forgo an Oracle rush I'm ok with just getting the important techs and other wonders down the line. I still think we should have the tech though - I mean yes we wouldn't necessarily get something crazy like researching Math and CoL and Oracling after that, but just enough tech for the typical Code of Laws Oracle should be easy? When you've got a silver (about the same as gold, which is the more common scenario of course) resource like that in the capital and marble nearby this works on just about any game I've ever seen so I don't particularly see too bad a chance of failing now. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out we're far enough along past these basic techs into other stuff and the AI wouldn't have been a threat on the Oracle race yet.