SGOTM 11 - X-Nuts

[AlanH]

Welcome to your SGOTM 11 team thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results page on September 9th, at midnight, server local time.

Thanks again to Gyathaar for coming up with the variant and developing the map.

You are Shaka of the Zulus, and your mission is to dominate the World. The world is standard sized, but crowded with 13 rivals grouped into several power blocks locked into mutual protection pacts. You are out in the cold.

All victory conditions are switched on, but the winning team will be the one that achieves a Domination victory earliest. Domination is defined for this game as 75% of world land plus coast, and 75% of world population.

Here's the start.

​

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Zulu
Difficulty - Emperor
Opponents - 13: America, Arabia, China, Egypt, England, France, Germany, India, Japan, Korea, Ottomans, Russia, Scandinavia.
World - Standard, Continents, 60% water, 4 billion years old, temperate
Barbarians - Roaming

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Game mods:
The game uses the default rules as defined in the SGOTM Reference Thread, with the following modifications:

- Domination requires 75% of world territory and 75% of world population.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included, as you can see from the starting screenshot. If you have played SGOTM 9 then you will be ready. Other players will need to download and unzip this small graphics mod pack. Details are provided in the SGOTM Reference Thread..

Please ensure that you have incuded the line: NoAIPatrol=0 in your conquests.ini text file.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared, skipping references to PtW or Vanilla versions of Civ3.

The GOTM Reference Thread.
The SGOTM Reference Thread.

Notes:

A. ONLY Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for a single award.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - the laurels will be awarded for the fastest Domination victory. The wooden spoons will go to the team with the lowest final Jason score, having completed the game.

C. You MUST play from the start file assigned to your team. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Enjoy your game

 

[leif erikson]

Welcome to our Peanut flavored friends.

I am looking forward to playing together after so many fairly close matches, well, most of the time.

Think I'll go PM everyone.

 

[civ_steve]

Hi Leif - thanks for the PM heads up!

civ_steve checking in - shells and all!

Thanks to DJMGator for suggesting the merger; we'll have a good group of players looking for a good time (and Laurels are nice as well!) Let's give those Klariusians a run for their money!

 

[denyd]

Just back from a semi-relaxing long weekend in Sedona and checking in.

Just off hand I would think that settling in place with the scout going SW-W and the worker going to the cow to mine is how I would start this one. As for research, I'd probably go for The Wheel if Japan isn't in the game.

I wonder since there are already some alliances formed, if that means that some tribes already have met and can trade first level techs. I also wondering if there are 3 groups of 4 or 4 groups of 3 that we'd have to fight.

 

[leif erikson]

As with all great mergers, there are sometimes procedural things we are used to that may need a little compromising. I have read your threads before and I think we operate, as teams, similarly. But I'd just like to state up front that should I do anything that bothers anyone to please let me know. While I'd love to nudge past Team Klarius, I also would like us all to enjoy the game as well as each other.

Looking at the starting screenie, I wonder what that water to the south tastes like, if that is coast I see?

 

[Mathilda]

Hi

Looking forward to this. The merger was definately a good idea

Any suggestion for team captain?
Play order?

Agree with Leif, I want to go and dip my (scout's) toes into that water before settling.

 

[denyd]

I think sending the scout SW-W will give us a taste of the water.

My usual shortcoming in these SGOTMs is a lack of aggressiveness on the military side. I usually wait until the RNG won't be of major concern. Like 6 swords for a 2 spear size 3 plains city. I'm a builder at heart, so I see if I can call upon my blood-thirsty evil twin to come to my aid.

LE: I'm always looking for ways to improve my game, so don't hesitate to point out new ideas or correct misperceptions.

 

[leif erikson]

My usual shortcoming in these SGOTMs is a lack of aggressiveness on the military side. I usually wait until the RNG won't be of major concern. Like 6 swords for a 2 spear size 3 plains city. I'm a builder at heart, so I see if I can call upon my blood-thirsty evil twin to come to my aid.

I share your pain!
I used to wait until I had a large sized force before attacking. What I found out was that while I was building this nice force, the AI was building more defenders. These guys have reformed me into, well, sort of a bloodthirsty wramongering Viking?

LE: I'm always looking for ways to improve my game, so don't hesitate to point out new ideas or correct misperceptions.

I'm with you here as well. We found a couple of games ago that there are positive ways to do this and there are, well, less than helpful ways too.

 

[Mathilda]

I think the key in this in succession games is discussion and jointly deciding the goals for each turnset beforehand.
Yes, I like to keep the game moving, (and I'm very to use the :whip: if anyone's slacking), but discussion is even more important.

It'll be interesting to see how nicely surrounded we are by our closest neighbours.

 

[leif erikson]

Just a little background work.

We are the Zulu so start with Pottery and Warrior Code. Japan is in this game, so The Wheel will be around early.

I think we should think about what our objectives should be, early war or fast expansion (farmer's gambit?). Either way, it looks to me like The Wheel to HBR is our best shot at getting something of value to trade, and find the horse resource to claim. I know I'll breath easier when we know where Iron and Horses are and if we can claim them or if we have to fight for them. And then there is may be the need, at Emperor, for some pointy stick research.

With the Impi we have a strong early defender that needs no resource to build and can serve as a Scout.

We should get scouts out to find the other civs and see if we can figure out who is locked in alliances with who so we can figure out how to set the alliances against one another and keep any one of them from becoming too dominant.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Hi team
I'd go S S with the scout (if we can). I think that reveals the most tiles.

 

[civ_steve]

I think everyone has posted except DJMGator13, so we're almost all present and accounted for.

We do need to appoint a team captain. I would suggest one of the former XTeam members assume that position, perhaps Leif since he took the initiative to PM everyone once the thread was open.

XTeam and Peanut ran fairly similarly so I see no problem with the merger. First and foremost let's have fun, since this is entertainment and obviously Civ is a game we enjoy. And if we have suggestions or comments to make about the play, let's always present them in a constructive manner - point out where we could do something better, but don't put anybody down.

To the game:

First - we have a very crowded start. Standard Map has 5000 tiles; with 60% Ocean that cuts us down to 2000 land tiles. With 13 AI and little ole us, that averages to 142 tiles per civ, about 7 fully expanded cities. Considering I see a lot of Mountains in the immediate vicinity, we may have space for only 4-5 useable cities. It may make sense to not build Granary and get Settlers out to the best city sites ASAP! With a non-irrigated Cow, we can put a Settler out every 14 turns; with Irrigation, every 10 turns, so Irrigated is definitely better (if we have fresh water available). With a Granary, this becomes every 8 turns non-irrigated, and every 6 turns irrigated. We get the 4th Settler out about the same time either way, and with or without Irrigation; without Granary we save the 1 gpt cost for now, and have some excess shields to build other units; with Granary we have the cost, and Capital is doing nothing but building Granary and Settlers, but there are longer term benefits to having a Granary and we can pump out Settlers 5 and higher faster if there is more space to be occupied.

The Scout - do we want more immediate information about what's over the Mountains? It's hard to imagine moving away from a Cow, so whatever's on the other side will probably not change our Capital's location much. We'd definitely like to find out if there's bonus food we can use right away, so I would support Scout going S first, and probably S or SW from there. After that, off to the hinterlands.

The Settler - it appears that there are mostly Hills and maybe a plains space to the NW beyond the Mountains. Unless there's a nice bonus in there, I would suggest moving the Settler SE 1 Space and founding there. We clobber a Forest here as well as in the initial founding location, but if the Water is fresh we are adjacent to it and can pass irrigation to the Cow directly. Also, if there is a bonus food to the SE, this will gain it, while still keeping the Gems (and Goats of course) in play. And we may be swapping grassland for Hills within our Capital's use, which should be more useful in the short term. If the Scout reveals bonus food to the SW, then we'll have to figure out how to use it.

The Worker - it might be worthwhile to move 1 space NW to see if there's anything just over the Mountains to justify founding in place. Turn2 goes to the Cow and then either Irrigates (if water is Fresh) or Mines.

Research - I'd definitely like a shot at Philosophy and the Free Tech, and I suspect trading will be fast. There are 4 Commercial civs so Alphabet is fairly well represented (as will be most Techs) but only Japan will know the Wheel, so for best Trading Power, the Wheel would be a good choice and give us some further options (and knowledge of Horses). After that I'd really like to trade for Alphabet if possible, and head up to Writing. At Emperor probably go for Philosphy right away.

I don't have any good idea about the nature of the alliances we're up against, and I would suggest a lot of caution until we find out. I also tend to be more cautious than many, in part because I feel the RNG has it out for me!

That's my thoughts for now; please feel free to post any arguments and counter suggestions.

 

[leif erikson]

It would be an honor to serve as your team captain. What we have always done is that I simply keep track of the roster and, when needed, communicate with Alan or Gyathaar about whatever we may need clarifications on.
Our decisions are made together based on the most logical argument or smartest idea.

I like your ideas concerning the early game. It would be nice to get to Philosophy, but that will require a fairly early trade for Alphabet and we really don't have much to trade, unless Alphabet is traded around and is cheaper because so many other civs will have it. And that will require us to know those civs, so scouting will be important to establish contacts. A small question, and perhaps a wild idea, do we self research or use savings plan to purchase discounted techs as they get wildly traded about? Then start researching on Philosophy once we have what we need and some gold saved to do some negative research?

Pushing out Settlers without a Granary is Ok as we can build some Impi's in between to get them out and searching. If we do find another food resource, we may want to reconsider this if a Settler pump is available.

Workers will be important too to get our little civ up and cranking out whatever it is we need.

You're right, it will be tight and we may need to make some room for ourselves, once we get a handle on who is aligned with who. Hate to start a war with someone who has a big daddy!

 

[WillowBrook]

Lurker Willow checking in!

As a sometimes-XTeam'er, I'm looking forward to following this merged team! Have fun!

 

[denyd]

When playing an EXP tribe I've always made at least the first build a scout. Popping huts for either techs or a settler/city is one of the few benefits of EXP. I didn't notice any mention if it was settlers or workers from huts. Getting an early bonus settler/city would help a lot.

I like most of Civ Steve's ideas (research The Wheel, settlers w/o granary, etc), though if the water's salty, I'd rather we just settle in place. A BG, cow & goats will all be available to Zimbabwe after 10 turns and once needed, the gems will be easily connected. If the water is fresh, then the move is worth it and SE is the best choice.

I like to to shy away from early Impi's as I really try to avoid a Golden Age while in Despotism. I also don't see any reason to try building any AA wonders. I'm wondering whether we'd be better off as a Monarchy instead of a Rerpublic (maybe take Polytheism with the Philosophy bonus if we have the prerequisites.

 

[civ_steve]

I'm suggesting SE because there's not too much likelihood of something good just over the mountains to the NW (a Worker move would verify that). Our Scout can't go both SW and SE, so I figure move scout SW and if nothing shows up move SE anyway just in case there's something that way just out of range. (I'll trade a row of hills for what's behind Curtain #3!)

I agree about not using the Impis right off if we can avoid it (or at all for a while). We still need Bronzeworking before we can build them so not an option initially. There are 4 Scientific civs in the game so I'm sure we'll be able to trade for them fairly soon.

I like the idea of building a 2nd Scout first for quick exploration. Probably follow up with a Warrior for MP duty, then Settler (?).

Saving Gold to buy Tech is an interesting idea (certainly gives more flexibility), but I think that works better under PTW than under C3C. IIRC, C3C civs trade Tech at high gold cost no matter how many civs you know with the Tech. If that's the case (I'm not sure), then we would be better to have Techs available to trade and should do mostly research, targeting good trading Techs or Techs we are most interested in.

I think this will be a long affair. This many civs, at Emperor, needing 75% land and population ... Monarchy is really well suited if you know you're going to constant war with very little research needed and a few targets to take out, but with this many civs I'm afraid we would fall very far behind in Tech. My initial feeling is that we'll probably want Republic, and research as quickly as possible to MilTradition; hopefully along the way we can start some side wars and drag some of these alliances into them against each other and keep ourselves fairly strong and groups of the AI weak. Along the way we'll have to find out what those alliances are, who is also on our continent, and how much Tech do we need to reach the other civs (do we need Astronomy, Navigation, ...)

 

[DJMGator13]

Gator checking in finally. Haven't really studied the starting situation much and I'm all thunk'd out for the day due to work, but I agree with Steve that claiming some land ASAP is top priority. With 4-5 cities we can easily build a decent army, depending on the resources available.

We also need to decide early if we want to try to go for the Republic sling. That again will depend on how many start with Alpha and wether they are trading freely amongst themselves. (EDIT: After reading Steve's post in more detail, I see he mentioned the Sling).

I'm planning on getting out of work early tomorrow (I've earned over 40hours of comp time over the past 3 weeks), so I'll have a more detailed look then.

 

[DJMGator13]

I saw this while browsing Team Klarius' SG10 thread.

Mediterranean resources (if you installed the SGOTM mod you will find the bonus values in the civilopedia):

Originally Posted by cracker


* Lambs: bonus; +2 food (found on Hills and Plains)
* Sheep: bonus; +2 food +1 shield (found on Hills and Plains)
* Wool: luxury; +2 food +1 shield + 1 commerce (found on Hills and Plains)
* Oysters: bonus; +2 food + 1 commerce (found in Coast)
* Pearls: bonus; +2 food + 3 commerce (found in Coast)
* Coastal Rocks: bonus; +1 shield + 1 commerce (found in Coast)
* Goats: bonus; +2 food +1 shield (found on Desert, Hills, Mtns)
* Menudo (young goats): bonus; +2 food (found on Desert, Hills, Mtns)
* Olives: bonus; +2 food +1 commerce (found on Desert, Hills, Mtns)
* Cotton: luxury; +1 shield +2 commerce (found on Desert and Plains)


All new food resources are +2. So you irrigate them on plains in despotism. Mine in other places.
One special thing is goats in desert. You can gain no shields or food in despotism (they are already +2 +2) so just road them early.

He referenced the original thread where Cracker posted and I found these other interesting items.

Bamspeedy posted this

Ok, here is a 'cheat sheet' of what the tiles will produce in despotism:
I might have made a mistake, so let me know, so I can correct it.
These are not taking into account rivers (for commerce), but I always slap a road on the tile if I'm going to be using that tile anyways (and of course you need roads to hook up the ones that are luxuries).

Lambs:
Hills-2/1/0 default
2/2/0 if mined
Plains-2/1/0 default
2/2/0 if mined
3/1/0 if irrigate
Irrigate lambs on plains!

Sheep:
Hills-2/2/0 default
2/3/0 if mined
Plains-2/2/0 default
2/2/0 if mined
3/2/0 if irrigated
Irrigate Sheep on plains!

Wool:
Hills-2/2/1 default
2/3/1 if mined
Plains- 2/2/1 default
2/2/1 if mined
3/2/1 if irrigated
Irrigate wool on plains!

Oysters:
2/0/2 default
3/0/2 with harbor

Pearls:
2/0/4 default
3/0/4 with harbor

Coastal Rocks:
1/1/2 default
2/1/2 with harbor

Goats:
Desert-2/2/0 default
2/2/0 if mined
2/2/0 if irrigated
Hills-2/2/0 default
2/3/0 if mined
Mountains-
2/2/0 default
2/3/0 if mined
Just slap a road on those goats in desert!

Menudo (young goats):
Desert-2/1/0 default
2/2/0 if mined
2/1/0 if irrigated
Hills-2/1/0 default
2/2/0 if mined
Mountains-2/1/0 default
2/2/0 if mined
Mine those young goats in desert!

Olives:
Desert-2/1/1 default
2/2/1 if mined
2/1/1 if irrigated
Hills-2/1/1 default
2/2/1 if mined
Mountains-2/1/1 default
2/2/1 if mined
Mine those olives on desert!

Cotton:
Desert-0/2/2 default
0/2/2 if mined
1/2/2 if irrigated
Plains-1/2/2 default
1/2/2 if mined
2/2/2 if irrigated
irrigate that cotton!

Then ControlFreak made a chart


With these comments

All the values are adjusted for Despotism and have an * next to values that would be higher out of Despotism. I added Flood Plains, just in case a bonus on a desert square can also be a Flood Plain (Desert with river).

Green - Food above 2 after improvements.
Blue - Sheilds above 2 after improvements.
Red - If the tile is next to a river, you wouldn't get an extra commerce from roading.
Purple - The better choice of improvement given terrain. Note that only the Plains and Desert even have a choice.
Yellow - Goats on Desert can not be improved other than roading it in Despotism.

Coastal Tile bonuses will still benefit from a harbor since all food bonuses are 2 and already reduced in despotism.

Always mine Menudo and Olives, always irrigate cotton.

 

[leif erikson]

I agree about not using the Impis right off if we can avoid it (or at all for a while). We still need Bronzeworking before we can build them so not an option initially. There are 4 Scientific civs in the game so I'm sure we'll be able to trade for them fairly soon.

Yes, I forgot about the despotic Golden Age. Been playing too much C-IV. What I was was thiniking in suggesting it was that we would have scouts (2 movement) that would not be affected by Barb attacks. So they could range far and wide, making contact with as many civs as possible and we wouldn't have to orry about losing them.

I like the idea of building a 2nd Scout first for quick exploration. Probably follow up with a Warrior for MP duty, then Settler (?).

Just played a trial game and, depending upon the map, 3 or 4 scouting units would be a good idea. I'm not suggesting that we do this before Settlers or a second Worker, but keep in in mind as the map unfolds that we do need the contacts.

Saving Gold to buy Tech is an interesting idea (certainly gives more flexibility), but I think that works better under PTW than under C3C. IIRC, C3C civs trade Tech at high gold cost no matter how many civs you know with the Tech. If that's the case (I'm not sure), then we would be better to have Techs available to trade and should do mostly research, targeting good trading Techs or Techs we are most interested in.

Just completed a test game and tech costs are:

The tech costs do decrease with number of civs known having the tech, so we might consider, at times, going with no research?

I think this will be a long affair. This many civs, at Emperor, needing 75% land and population ... Monarchy is really well suited if you know you're going to constant war with very little research needed and a few targets to take out, but with this many civs I'm afraid we would fall very far behind in Tech. My initial feeling is that we'll probably want Republic, and research as quickly as possible to MilTradition; hopefully along the way we can start some side wars and drag some of these alliances into them against each other and keep ourselves fairly strong and groups of the AI weak. Along the way we'll have to find out what those alliances are, who is also on our continent, and how much Tech do we need to reach the other civs (do we need Astronomy, Navigation, ...)

I agree with this assessment. To maintain a happy little civ and keep up research rate, we'll need as many happy resources as we can get. Marketplaces, etc. And watch the size of our military...

 

[civ_steve]

I love test cases! Thanks for putting the chart together!

However, I'm reading that these are the Tech costs for doing the reseach (correct me if I'm wrong), which definitely go down if we know more civs with the specific Tech.

My concern is that the C3C AI will still insist on original full tech cost when trading. Even if you know 4 AI who know BronzeWorking, they would still want 90 Gold to sell it to you outright. And they wont give you much credit for whatever research you may have in it already. I don't know for sure about this (I tended to play PTW much more than C3C, and CIV has most of my playing attention lately). If this is the case, then saving Gold to buy Tech may not be very efficient, and definitely wouldn't work as well as it did in PTW.