SGOTM 12 - Barley Demons

[Compromise]

And we're off....

I played just a few turns--until the discovery of Fishing. I am flying out the door in a moment for a meeting. Back in a few hours (I hope.)

I have attached part of the first turnset log here (I omitted our various original sins which have made the AIs so mad at us...)

Spoiler :

Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!

Turn 1, 3960 BC: Moscow has been founded.

Turn 2, 3920 BC: De Gaulle adopts Nationhood!
Turn 2, 3920 BC: Roosevelt adopts Representation!
Turn 2, 3920 BC: Mao Zedong adopts State Property!

Turn 3, 3880 BC: The borders of Moscow have expanded!

Turn 5, 3800 BC: De Gaulle is willing to negotiate.
Turn 5, 3800 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: De Gaulle

Turn 6, 3760 BC: Gandhi is willing to negotiate.
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Gandhi will trade Archery, Mysticism
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Gandhi
Turn 6, 3760 BC: You have discovered Fishing!

The current game is here.

Important items:

No new resources discovered when borders illuminated the south.

French know nationhood.
Americans are in Representation.
Mao knows Communism (State Property).

Our known world:

Spoiler :

I will post further screenshots and another update when I complete the Settler on the next turnset.

Also, I've made screenshots of demographics and the main screen from every turn so far. I'll post those when I get back to a computer....

 

[SevenSpirits]

French know nationhood.
Americans are in Representation.
Mao knows Communism (State Property).

Referring back here, we now know:

Stalin: 36 (Modern?): ???
Mao: 30 (Industrial): Communism
Churchill: 30 (Industrial?): ???
Roosevelt: 24 (Renaissance): Constitution
De Gaulle: 24 (Renaissance): Nationalism

According to power analysis by regoarrarr here, non-Stalins should have an extra 4k among their techs, which should mean that Churchill has a 4k tech. The only Industrial 4k tech is Steel. Another possibility is Physics + an Airship.

 

[Compromise]

Thanks SS

Another brief update:

On turn 1, after the move, but before settling:

Spoiler :

And on that same turn after settling Moscow:

Spoiler :

And from the current turn:

Spoiler :

I'll finish the settler late tonight, unless someone can come up with a reason to change courses asap....

 

[ruff_hi]

Some comments on the scoreboard ...

"!" means 'will not talk'
crossed swords - war!
"+xx" - score change over turn
smilie - their attitude to us
red head - we are their worst enemy
'x' - number of cities they have - white is an accurate count, blue is a guess based on map knowledge (minimum 1)

The espionage screen also includes information re how much EPs the AI is spending against other known civs - useful when a spy mission is run against us to find out who did it.

 

[Compromise]

Thanks for the BUG info, ruff.

And nice post in the maintenance thread too; I was thinking of posting there and guaranteeing ourselves at least a 10th place finish this time. Maybe saying we were having a long discussion about what type of wood we prefer our spoons be made of.

Okay...I'm going to finish up the settler now, assuming no more AI encounters. I'll try to snap some Espionage screenshots too.

 

[Compromise]

Not much to report:

Buddhism discovered on T9; 10 Gandhi converts to it.

I took a few pictures of Demographics and Espionage screens. Here's our last demographics screen:

Spoiler :

On the last turn, Gandhi got Agriculture, and the other AIs went up slightly in score:



I stopped 1T before completing the settler just so that anyone interested in tracking our progress on the graph will think (realize?) we're fools.

I can continue running these turnsets unless someone else wants to jump in. In the very early going here, there isn't much to see or discuss, so they can be run pretty quickly. I plan to go Animal Husbandry after Sailing. And I plan to go workboat, warrior, workboat in Moscow and Worker first in the second city (St. Pete?).

Let me know if something else appeals to anyone.

At this point, I think we should aim as much as possible for a maximum growth plan.

In my test game (only run out to about turn 50), the only way I could get peace with the AIs was to offer them my second city.

Latest save is here.

At this pace, we should be finished by next week!

 

[Adlain]

the AI looks like, while we are the worst enimy of all bar Gandhi they will now talk with us, any chance we can get shift of some of these war Decs??, if nothing else it will mean we can start repairing our relationships early before border tension starts to degrade it.

 

[Compromise]

I assume that "get shift of" means get rid of? I agree that we need to get peace.

One thing I noticed in the event log is that a large number of our "warriors" attacked large numbers of their "modern armors" and, naturally enough, lost.

So I think we have quite a bit of losing combat experience with the AIs. This could make it challenging to get them to offer us peace.

Does anyone know what the conditions are for the AI to talk seriously about peace?

 

[Adlain]

Yea, thats what i ment - as for the diplo condtions iirc Bug/ Buffy Tells us when they are willing to discuss peace, i.e. "Gandhi will disscuss: Peace"

EDIT: Your Turn Log:

Turn 0, 4000 BC: Catherine launches a Tactical Nuke, and it explodes!!!

Turn 1, 3960 BC: Moscow has been founded.

Turn 2, 3920 BC: De Gaulle adopts Nationhood!
Turn 2, 3920 BC: Roosevelt adopts Representation!
Turn 2, 3920 BC: Mao Zedong adopts State Property!

Turn 3, 3880 BC: The borders of Moscow have expanded!

Turn 5, 3800 BC: De Gaulle is willing to negotiate.
Turn 5, 3800 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: De Gaulle

Turn 6, 3760 BC: Gandhi is willing to negotiate.
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Gandhi will trade Archery, Mysticism
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Gandhi
Turn 6, 3760 BC: You have discovered Fishing!

Shows that Gandhi and De Gaulle will sign peace with us

 

[Compromise]

Thanks for the clarification.

I tried making peace with each of the AIs. None of them will give us a deal. I think that "Will Sign Peace Treaty" is the opposite of "Refuses to Talk."

In my test game, the only deal they'd take up through turn 50-something was my second city!

 

[Compromise]

Also, I've been thinking about strategy a bit. Some thoughts in no particular order:

I think we have an opportunity for explosive growth with the Ecology-enabled Recycling Center. Combined with Hereditary Rule, our cities would only be limited by food. I think we should be beelining Monarchy. Perhaps via chopped Oracle?

I think we should pump out workers and settlers from the yet-to-be-settled northern city and troops out of Moscow. The AI is probably going to need some...convincing...to sign a peace treaty with us.

We will probably want some workers doing nothing but building roads towards the AIs.

Two things which would be useful:

1) a chart showing what adds to our "Power" rating. (I seem to recall that Axes are one of the best hammer values here.),

2) an optimized no-tech-trade route to a space victory. Other than Gandhi, I don't see us making a lot of trades with the AI here.

 

[Adlain]

well im now officaly Back and reporting for duty!!

 

[Compromise]

Excellent! I have more thoughts later tonight.... About 3-4 hours from now, I'm guessing.

 

[Compromise]

So here's what I'm thinking.

First, a map of the peninsula with what I think are our desired citizen assignments:




City tile assignments (early):

Blue numbers refer to tiles for Moscow, and Red for soon-to-be-founded St. Petersburg.

This is a goal once the tiles are mature. We're in a tech race--going for space victory--so I think we want the gold worked almost all the time.

I see Moscow pumping out units. Happy cap is 6 (with gold and capital) soon. With some luck, we'll find horses or copper here so we have even more hammers to work. CowRiceGrasshillGrasshillPlainshillPlainshillCapcenter is +0F 17H 8C

I see St. Petersburg as a worker/settler spamming city. Happy cap will be 5 with gold. FishClamCowGoldGoldCitycenter is +5F 9H 20C

The numbers in the screenshot show the order to work the citizens. St Pete's assume some whipping....

Proposed Tech Path: <Completed> [In progress]

First set: <Fishing> - [Sailing] - Animal Husbandry - Bronzeworking - The Wheel

Second set: Agriculture - Pottery

Oracle set: Mysticism - Meditation - Priesthood - ***Monarchy***

We do have 3 industrious rivals, so the Oracle may fall quickly.

Build suggestions:

Moscow: [Settler] - Workboat(Fish) - Warrior (for exploring) - Workboat(Clams) - Worker or Warrior (exploring/defending)

StPete: Worker first. Then grow somehow?

Longer term

I think there is a possibility of greatness with Hereditary Rule and Recycling Centers, but each of the latter is like a World Wonder at this point in the game. Maybe only useful in awesome cottage cities? (Neither of our first two qualify!)

Okay...those are my thoughts as of now.

Adlain, do you want to take the reins for a bit? I suggest the next turnset founds St Pete (which builds worker), sends boat to the fish and gets a warrior built.

We may as well put a warrior between the two workboats since we won't need the clams sooner than the warrior interlude allows.

An alternative is to grow to size 2 after the Fish are netted; I haven't seen if that's better....

 

[Jabah]

I probably would try to have St Pet build an extra warrior to grow (working forrest until WB1 arrives) then alternate worker/warrior when a clean tile is improved.
Then Moscow could build: WBx2 (WB2 needed asap), worker, warrior then alternate worker/warrior when a clean tile is improved.

OR

What if :
St Pet builds its own second WB first while growing (probably working grassforrest until WB1 nets the fish)
Moscow builds WB1->warrior->worker (then worker2 or warrior2)

I am at work, so can't try it myself on a test game [I could try it with Excel if someone has an already file, otherwise I might take too long building one - and without the save to check, I might have a few mistakes]

Also : what would be the delay for BW asap (to see if slaving WB2 in St Pet is an option)

Jabah

 

[Compromise]

Thanks for the suggestions Jabah. Let me try a couple of those....

 

[Compromise]

Quick numbers report:

St. Pete is built on T20. At that point, Moscow has 9/30H into WB1.

If growing, St Pete grows to size 2 on T33.

At that point (T33):
- Moscow has produced 31H (post-WB1) (If built WB2, it could net clams on T35.)
- St Pete has produced 25F and 23H. (If building WB2, it could net clams on T37.)

 

[Jabah]

From your number (and a basic crappy excel model), what about:
Moscow : WB1 (t26, net fish t30), WB2 (t33, net clam t35), worker ? (t?)
St Pet : warrior1 (t25), warrior2 (t30), warrior3 (t38 after growth t36 if my excel is not wrong?) then worker (t?)

Jabah

Or since with 2seafood and size3, St Pet will be 1unhealthy (so until a tile is clean, we have no interest being size3), we could either slow build warrior2 by swapping forrest for unnetted fish for 3t and have:
St Pet : warriro1 (t25), warrior2 (t33 and growth), worker

EDIT
Better and 'slightly counter intuitive' (but gaining 1health 2t earlier is better short term)
WB1 go to CLAM (netted T28) then we have:
St Pet grow to size2 and finish warrior2 synchro at T32 the earliest possible

EDIT2
both solution (warriorx2, then worker) should result in worker in St Pet T40 (with both seafood and 65 or 66h in worker)
next worker could be T46 St Pet and/or T48 Moscow

 

[Compromise]

Builds:
I'm liking the look of that, Jabah.

I was just thinking that StPete should make the first warrior while Moscow builds WB2.

Seafood improvement order:
Clams can be netted 2T ahead of fish. So you get 1F for health and 2F for better tile. That compares to 1fpt for fish, so it takes 6T for the fish to break even.

Moscow's WB2 takes 5T (x6hpt) to build, then 5T to net the fish; total is 10T before both seafoods netted.

So...is this a 4F difference total?

 

[Compromise]

One other thing...I'm trying to determine whether it's useful to go for the Oracle or not, and if so...what to try to get with it.

One radical option I'd like to throw out there during this brainstorming time is a...Feudalism slingshot. (After hand-researching Writing (~4T) and Monarchy(~12T).)

Serfdom-enhanced workers would save us 2 worker-turns per fallout tile at the cost of Slavery production.