SGOTM 12 - Barley Demons

[Compromise]

Okay here are some turn-by-turn results.

First case: Simply move N, NE and settle 1W of the clams:

T1: Settle NNE. Health is -1F. Can only work Grass Forest. Start Worker (20T)
T4: First border pop.
T8: Fishing in. Go BW. Worker due in 13T or Workboat in 15T. I choose to switch to workboat.
T23: BW in. Go AH (13T). Workboat done, continue worker
T24: Fish netted. Health now 4/4. Switch from forest to fish. Worker due in 7T.
T26: Third culture ring in Moscow.
T31: Worker done. Start workboat 2. Revolt to Slavery
T32: Worker starts scrubbing cow (6T)
T34: Can whip workboat (but don't). 1T to AH
T35: AH in. Start Wheel
T37: Fallout cleared off cow.
T38: Start pasture
T39: Moscow to size 3. Whip WB2. (Arguable if I should whip this!)
T40: Stop.

End status: Moscow Size 2 (just whipped). Fish and clams netted. Pasture next turn. Size 2 with 7 of 24 food in storage. 15H in overflow production. In Slavery. Have Fishing, Bronzeworking, Anim Husb. Wheel in 2T.

Notes: Probably shouldn't have whipped on T39. Means I couldn't work clams for food and coastal commerce, but can work pasture next turn. Can whip WB once grown to size 4, then work Fish, Clams, Cow.

Second case: Settle SE first.
T1: Settle SE. Start settler (17T). Work Plains Hill Forest. -2F from unhealthiness ignored since 0 food at size 1.
T4: First border pop.
T8: Fishing in. Choose Sailing (13T) over Bronzeworking (15T)
T18: Settler finishes, Start Workboat1
T20: Found Novgorod at NNE site. Start worker in 20T. Work Grass forest (not coast!)
T21: Sailing in. Go Bronzeworking (Should have chosen AH!). Want binary research, so set to 0% research for 2T
T23: 100% research
T25: Novgorod first border pop
T26: Moscow second border pop (3 rings now). Workboat 1 finishes (send to fish). Start WB2.
T30: Net fish. Switch Novogorod to Fish (from forest).
T33: WB2 finishes, send to clams. Start worker in Moscow until clams netted since -1F from unhealthiness before clams.
T35: Bronzeworking in. Revolt to slavery. Clams netted. Start AH at 0%. Worker finishes in Novgorod. Send SE to cow. Warrior in Moscow to grow (now that no unhealthy penalty for growing). Warrior in Novgorod to grow.
T36: Out of slavery. Start clearing cow fallout (ewww!)
T37: Research to 100%; AH in 9T
T40: Stop

End status: 1T to clear cow fallout.
Moscow (SE) is size 1, 18/22 food. 8/15H on warrior
Novgorod (NNE) is size 1, 20/22 food. 4/15H on warrior.
Have Fishing, Sailing, Bronzeworking. AH in 6T.
Both fish and clams netted. 1T to clear pasture

Notes: Should have researched AH after Sailing and before BW. Need it for pasture and can't whip anyway.


Okay. That our test suite. Both runs could be a bit better optimized (don't whip in the first case, go AH before BW in the second.

I don't think any other capital location makes sense. Opinions?

 

[Adlain]

Just followed your notes for the SE Location, and did the sudgested AH/ BW swap

End Status:
2T Cow Clean up
Moscow (1): 10/22F, 10/15H Warrior
Novo (2): 3/24F, 5/15H Warrior
Tech: Fishing -> Sailing -> AH -> BW (4T)
Both Fish & Clams Netted

Ok, thats alittle Differant to your results...... here the actual Breakdown of what i did:

Spoiler :

T0: Moved SE.
T1: Found Moscow, Set Resurch to Fish, Work Hills Plains Forrest, Settler Due 17T
T8: Fishing in, Start on Sailing
T18: Settler sent to NNE Novo Site, Moscow now builds WB
T20: Nov founded, Starting Worker (20T), Working Grassland forrest 1S.
T21: Sailing in, Start AH on 0% Binary
T23: Swiched to 100% Reserch
T26: Workboat 1 built, sent to fish NE,E of Novgorod, start Workboat 2.
T30: Netted Fish at Novgorod and swiched to work it.
T33: AH in, WB2 Built and sent to Clams. Moscow Building worker. Tech to BW at 0% Binary
T35: Swich to 100% Recurch, Worker Built at Novgorod and sent to cows, Switch to Warrior, WB2 Nets Clams, Moscow Switch to Warrior and now working Silk 2E.
T40, Novgorod Grows to Size 2, Working Clams.

 

[Compromise]

That looks good, Adlain. I like your run better.

It looks like the main (only?) differences are that you didn't lose a turn for the Slavery civic swap yet and that you worked Silk instead of continuing to work the plains hill forest while growing in Moscow.

I suppose we could further optimize the details about whether to be building warriors or more workers at this point.

So...here are my thoughts. I think NNE and SE are the only realistic openings based on what we see now.

SE is viable because it gives us decent production from the very start, but it leaves us with a very blah capital later on. I don't know if this short term bonus is worth it. Maybe it is if we need production asap against our continent-sharing AI(s). NNE is vulnerable until it can whip.

SE is nice if there are hidden resources on the southern part of the peninsula that NNE can't work. The problem is that those would have to be production resources, and that site won't have much extra food to work them.

With the gold improved, the SE case has Moscow (6 happy people) working Rice, Cow, Silk, plain hill mine x 3. Novgorod with 5 happies would work Fish, Clams, Cow, Gold, Gold?

Some variations on the case that Adlain and I ran are: Instead of a second workboat, go straight to a worker out of Moscow. (So its builds are: Settler, workboat, worker, warrior?) That lets Novgorod work on a workboat to grow. Hmmm.

Another possibility is getting both AH and Bronzeworking before we go for Sailing. This loses us 2gpt in trade routes, but reveals our strategic resources a bit earlier.

One last thing that I don't like about the SE opening is that we're expanding into a peninsula that's already ours. On the other hand, I don't see us being too brave about expanding out of the peninsula without some decent production so we can go meet the neighbors without fear of annihilation.

Maybe the best thing to try to do is to set a goal of getting the Fish, Clams, Cows x 2, Gold x2 worked asap. If the SE city lets us do this, then it's the best move.

Does that sound reasonable?

 

[Jabah]

We might want to 'clean' the gold(s) before cow(s), for a heavy commerce/faster tech.

A safe option is probably to have warrior after settler and warrior in Nov while growing to size2.

Also isn't the decaying delay 10t for a worker (same as normal unit?), if that is the case, then NNE need more optimisation since a WB take 15t.

 

[Adlain]

Just to give a heads up, i have some personal Issues Come up that will be interfering with my Playing time for atleast the next few weeks - i dont invison a total blackout (i bloodly well hope not, id go insane) but i am going to be severly reduced. if i am needed for some reason PM me on the Realms Beyond Forum as i will most likley pick that up quicker.

Adlain.

 

[regoarrarr]

Bump - are we all lost in Civ 5 land?

 

[sunrise089]

Ok, I'm sold on the SE option.

 

[Compromise]

Ack, still trying to get a handle on some RL issues. I do want to play this game! I hope our slow start isn't fatal.

Yes to SE. (Why not? )

Jabah makes a good point about the decay at normal speed starting after 10T. I would like to optimize that a bit, but I just don't see myself running tests for another few days.

 

[ruff_hi]

BUFFY (I think) warns about hammer decay. I agree with the SE settlement.

 

[Adlain]

Im hearing alot of Echos in this thread - hopefuly i will be back and able to play on the 16th, maybe earlyer depending on how things go but the 16th is as close to a definate i can get atm.

 

[Compromise]

Adlain, that sounds good.

I hear the echos too. Maybe it's a lost cause, but we might be able to pull this back. Life will allow what it will allow.

Let's set a new start date of...Oct 13...to get back on track here. That way there isn't an indefinite "I'm almost back" like I keep telling myself.

This should allow me some time to square away a few things too, and Adlain will be around soon thereafter.

 

[Adlain]

Adlain, that sounds good.

I hear the echos too. Maybe it's a lost cause, but we might be able to pull this back. Life will allow what it will allow.

Let's set a new start date of...Oct 13...to get back on track here. That way there isn't an indefinite "I'm almost back" like I keep telling myself.

This should allow me some time to square away a few things too, and Adlain will be around soon thereafter.

well, if we take the 18th as our new start date, we need approx 44 Turns done Per week to complete it by 20th December (if i remember there are approx 400 turns in a full game )

Basicly if im right thats quite doable once we get going.

 

[Compromise]

I think we can do that. Most games don't go the full distance, and the most time-consuming part of Civ is war while our end-goal here is peace.

Also, I was thinking the 13th rather than the 18th. Maybe those will be the 5 crucial days!

 

[Compromise]

Alright, I'm back on board.

I know that these long delays are usually death sentences for succession games, but sometimes they can't be helped. I plan to play this to the conclusion even if I'm the only one doing so. I think it'll be a fun run through variant-ville, and it'll be humbling to compare the results of this game with whatever trickery the SGOTM masters here at CFC come up with in the other threads.

Who knows...perhaps a wandering AI warrior will waltz into our capital before we have any defense and this'll be a short game anyway. (I think one of these SGs had a team that popped barbs on its first hut and was essentially out of the running after the first turnset.)

Tonight, I'll run a couple of test cases for the opening. I plan to settle SE and immediately build a settler to head north.

I'm not exactly sure of the build orders after that, but I'll play around with a few options and form some opinions.

Adlain, I expect you might be able to join us (me? :O ) this weekend.

Ruff, are you still around? And if so, are you interested in running the first turnset?

I'll post my recommendations for the first set late tonight. Depending on feedback--or lack thereof--I think a long first set (i.e. to first settler build-completion) is in order.

And whoever runs the first set can keep track of some demographics and tech-price counts if we have some covert micro-analyzers around.

 

[Compromise]

Okay, here's what I like after playing around with the test game a bit:

Capital:
Settle SE
Settler First
Workboat #1
Warrior
Workboat #2 (will arrive at clams before 2nd city grows to size 2)

Second City:
Worker
Lighthouse to grow (warrior will come from capital)

Research:
Fishing
Sailing
AH
BW
Probably The Wheel next. If horses, then maybe after AH.

Improve Cows SE of 2nd city first. They can be used by both cities.

If I don't hear from anyone tomorrow, I'll probably get this rolling tomorrow late night. I'll try to remember to get demographics info for regoarrarr if he's around....

 

[Adlain]

Sounds good here, I will def try to be here for the weekend, today is very busy (up at 6:30) but it should ease up from tomorrow onwards.

 

[regoarrarr]

Sounds good to me too

 

[ruff_hi]

watching and waiting ...

 

[sunrise089]

Agree, looks good.

 

[Compromise]

Update: I feel ready to start. I'm going to run the first few turns.

Am having issues with the HoF mod not being "able to save" on new Windows 7 installation. Will try the Vista fixes recommended on the HoF page. Trying this now....

If anyone is online while I'm doing this, let me know if I should grab screenshots other than Demographics and the main-screen scores while I play.

I plan to finish the settler and will only stop if something unexpected happens...like seeing an AI or something.

Stay tuned...