SGOTM 12 - ChokoMisfits

I do not think we should build a worker first -- with our poor health situation it will take 20 turns. 20 turns during which we have no units, are not growing, etc. I think that is too long to not be making any progress.

It is pretty common for capitals with seafood to go WB first, even multiple WB first, and then build the first worker once one or two high-food tiles are hooked up. The overall growth curve is stronger, even with the worker coming out later. Given that our available land tiles are significantly worse than normal due to fallout, improving the seafood tiles first makes even more sense than usual.

Yes, doing the Worker first would mean it takes 20t to complete, meaning its available to do work on turn 20, like starting to clear Fallout which is the main cause of our Health issues. I assume clearing two Plots of Fallout in our Capital's BFC would reduce Unhealthiness by 1, up to a total of clearing six Plots of Fallout for a total reduction of 3 Unhealthiness. In 20t, we can Research Fishing and Animal Husbandry. Assuming Fallout takes 6t to clear and a building a Pasture takes 4t, it will take 11t or until turn 31 to have a functional Cow Pasture. Unfortunately, we need The Wheel to connect the Cow to gain +1 Health and an additional 2t to build the Road. The big plus though is having enough Hammers to utilize the Expansive trait's +25% Hammer bonus via working the Plains Cow Pasture (3F3H) and the City Center (2F1H1C).

However, doing a Work Boat first (the obvious choice), means building a Warrior for 8t or building something else for 7t. We can't start the Work Boat until turn 7 or 8, because we lack Fishing. The first Work Boat is completed in 15t, thus it completes on turn 23 or 24. At this point, we are Population 2, assuming we didn't build a partial Worker or Settler for turns 0-6. On Turn 24 or 25, we convert our Work Boat into a Fish Net causing the Fish Plot to produce +3F (5F2C). At this point, our Capital would likely work the Fish Net (5F2C), a Grassland Forest (2F1H) and City Center (2F1H1C), but we would lose 1 FPt to unhealthiness. Thus total net Output becomes 4F2H3C. City growth jumps from +1 Fpt to +4 Fpt.

At turn 24, we can build either another Work Boat or a Worker:

t24 Work Boat: Hammers are still only +2 Hpt, but +4 Fpt Growth means Population 3 in 6t and a second Grassland Forest (2F1H) worked adds +1 Hpt, but net Health drops to -2, so growth drops to +3 Fpt and with 26F needed to get to Population 4, its ETA becomes (temporarily) 9t. Status of boat is now 12 of 30 with 18H to be completed at +3 Hpt or another 6t to complete. The 2nd Work Boat completes and is converted to a Clam Net on turn 36 and net Health increases from -2 to -1. Net Food increases to +6 Fpt and not +7 Fpt due to the net -1 Health. A Worker started on t36, will utilize +2 Hpt and +6 Fpt and will therefore complete in 8t and thus be available on turn 44.
Without a Worker build, Population 4 would be achieved with 6t of +3 Fpt (18F) and 2t of +6 Fpt (12F) with 2F overflow, but Health drops from -1 to -2 (+6 Fpt -> +5 Fpt). Unfortunately, at Population 4, Hammers are just 1 more at 3 Hpt, not enough for the Expansive trait's +25% Hammer bonus to Workers. To get this bonus, we will need either a Cow Pasture or Gold Mine and that won't happen without an early Worker.

t24 Worker: Although Hammers are still only +2 Hpt, the relatively high +4 Fpt results in a Worker in 10t. Our first Worker becomes available on turn 34. It will take 11t to clear Fallout and build a Pasture on the Plains Cow Plot, making the Cow Pasture available to be worked on turn 45.

Conclusion:

While I agree that building a Work Boat first is a viable alternative, I'm not so sure its the best. In my opinion, only sound, mathematical reasoning or a test Game run can prove this either way. Nothing I've presented above really proves anything either way, but it provides enough doubt in my mind at least to justify a Mathematical Analysis or Test run of the optimal choices following a Worker first build. It's hard to determine the impact of having a functional Plains Cow Pasture on turn 31 and a functional Grassland Cow Pasture on turn 42 or visa versa. The two Work Boats can be built really fast when working the Plains Cow Pasture and really fast when working both Cow Pastures.

The arguments above do make a strong case for building a Worker immediately after the 1st Work Boat. Its hard to see the immediate advantage of growing to Population 3 when the available Plot to work is either 2F1H or 2F2C, nor is increasing Growth from +4 Fpt to +6 Fpt that spectacular, especially when temporarily dropping to +3 Fpt.

However, I can't conclude on the basis of the above Analysis that building two Work Boats ASAP isn't the best initial Logistical System, because it may provide an edge in Commerce generation which my analysis ignored. (I was tempted to say Operational Strategy above rather that Logistical System, but really the interaction of Technologies Possessed, Build Queue, and Worker tasks seems more Logistical than Operational; in other words, it seems to be more a matter of complicated Logistics than Operational Strategy.

Adding the Two Gold Mines:

Ultimately, the best Logistical System may be the one that gets our Capital to Population 6 and works the Fish Net (5F2C), Clam Net (4F2C), two Cow Pastures (3F3H & 4F2H) and two Gold Mines (3H8C and 3H7C), a Net total of 7F12H27C. This is bit complicated for direct Mathematical Analysis where one minor mistake could invalidate the whole Analysis. We probably need extensive Test Game results to really be sure which Alternative Logistical System is the best. The importance of the two Gold Mines is primarily the 8 and 7 Commerce per turn each that they add and secondarily the 3 Hammers per turn they each add. With Two Gold Mines, we can really accelerate our initial Research rate (from 9 Bpt to 27 Bpt) and build things twice as fast (from 6 Hpt to 12 Hpt).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Thanks for the info, JH. I had missed that comment about fractal with islands. I did use a fractal for my test save, but (minor spoiler) it did not generate much in the way of islands.

If desired, I can update the test save to add fallout to "almost all of the earth". I would presume that there is no fallout on forest tiles, as that seems to be the pattern around our start. Jungles too would remain fallout free, I guess.

Grab the current test save if you want it, as uploading a new one seems to remove the old file. Or is there a way to have more than one file available from a user at once?

Ozbenno,

We know that none of the AIs start with any "biological units". And there are no barbs. So I think we are safe for a certain period of time. But we need to build something while researching Fishing, and a warrior will then be able to explore while we work on the WBs and get our first worker out. There is certainly plenty for the worker to do, as we can clean fallout due to our Ecology tech. I would think clean the cow west of the capital first, then one of the golds, but we can discuss the exact order.
 
Sun

Note that when we boat a seafood resource we will automatically get +1 health. Going and working the workboat tiles while growing nets 4 commerce...working cow tiles doesn't net us any commerce.

Note that we simply cannot sim anything but the capital city, there is far too much uncertainty in the map for anything useful to be gained from anything else.

It should be a relatively straightforward math exercise, in any case.
 
OK, updated test save has been prepared. Lots and lots and lots of fallout...essentially the whole world is similar to what we see around our start. Forest and jungle tiles will be highly desirable, since they do not have fallout -- I left these tiles as is, although they may be largely wiped out in the actual game. We won't know until we explore further.

Also, I tweaked the AI starts a bit so they are not completely screwed. I have made them similar to our start, with all AIs on the coast and with a couple seafood. None of the AIs have Ecology, though, so they will have real trouble developing additional cities.

Let me know if you see any obvious errors, etc.
 

Attachments

  • TEST_ChokoMisfits BC-4000 heavy fallout.CivBeyondSwordSave
    49.1 KB · Views: 52
OK, ran a test of the initial moves with the new test save. Settled 2N1E as planned, with warrior first build while researching Fishing.

City founded on T1 (counting from T0, as usual).

T 8 - Fishing done, start BW for future whipping, reveal copper
T 9 - warrior done, start WB. Warrior starts exploring.
T10 - Gandhi founds Buddhism
T18 - Gandhi will trade, but is also WHEOOHRN. I got peace with everyone else, but Gandhi would not agree and just got more and more angry. Soon -13 (!).
T22 - BW finished, start AH.
T23 - Capital grows to size 2. Stagnant due to -2 food from unhealthiness.
T24 - WB one complete, start WB two.
T25 - Fish netter, capital growing at +4 (still losing 1 food to unhealthiness)
T31 - Capital grows to size 3, food now at +3 (losing 2 food to unhealthiness)
T36 - WB two complete, nets clams. Now growing at +6 (losing 1 food to unhealthiness). Start worker.
T39 - AH done, start Sailing (for lighthouse, possible trade routes; could be different choice here)
T40 - Hinduism founded by Churchill. Churchill also founds York this turn.
T44 - Worker one completes, moves to cows (stupid move 2 fallout). Start second worker.
T45 - Mao, Stalin, and Roosevelt all found cities.
T49 - Sailing done, start Wheel.
T50 - Cows clean, we are actually healthy for the first time in the game. :lol: Worker two completes and moves to cows to start pasture. Start a lighthouse for more food (this could be a different choice, obviously) but mostly just so the city grows.
T52 - Cows pasturized.
T53 - Revolt to slavery (not sure if there is a better time to do this?) Gandhi has IW (!). DeGaulle founds a city.
T54 - Capital grows to size 4, switches to settler. Wheel done, cows roaded, we remain healthy. Start Writing.
T55 - With one turn of food/hammers into settler, whip for two pop. Workers move to second cow. (Might have better to split one to cow, one to gold to build roads. Save 1 worker turn later.)
T56 - Settler ready to go, overflow into a warrior (existing one returned from scouting, will accompany settler.) Workers cleaning second cow tile.

I stopped at this point, and will try some other paths (including worker first) next, maybe tomorrow. Some things to think about:

- Gandhi looks like he will become a tech monster. He had met several other AIs and was already making trades. He reached Iron Working on T53, and was up several techs (Myst, Agri, Archery, IW) although we had Wheel, Sailing, and AH.
- Try to get cease fires with everyone every turn until we have peace! I got everyone but Gandhi in the first 3-5 turns, but Gandhi kept getting angrier (the "this war spoils our relationship kept climing from the initial -3 all the way to -8) and he would not accept peace.
 
- Try to get cease fires with everyone every turn until we have peace! I got everyone but Gandhi in the first 3-5 turns, but Gandhi kept getting angrier (the "this war spoils our relationship kept climing from the initial -3 all the way to -8) and he would not accept peace.

Gandhi was probably looking to eliminate us in your test Game above.

With the old test save I was able to get Peace with Gandhi for Fishing. It was t20 and I had Fishing and Animal Husbandry to trade at the time. I gave Gandhi Animal Husbandry and gained only +1 Fair Trading Bonus and our Diplomacy improved to -4, but not enough to trade us basic Technologies. This may go better by offering Gandhi Fishing as soon as we complete it.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
- Gandhi looks like he will become a tech monster. He had met several other AIs and was already making trades. He reached Iron Working on T53, and was up several techs (Myst, Agri, Archery, IW) although we had Wheel, Sailing, and AH.

In my opinion, it is imperative that we get on good terms with Gandhi as soon as Possible to improve our Diplomacy so we can also trade with him like all the other AIs that contact him. Even if it means we have to build a Settler and found a City near Gandhi to give to him for the +4 Fair Trading bonus that may be worthwhile. We can make sure the City has no value to Gandhi and is actually an Anchor that drags down his Economy, assuming this furthers our Grand Strategy.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
We will need to see what happens with Gandhi in the actual game. Note that the diplomatic states are different in the test save -- I got the basic pieces in place, we start -8 with all (-2 nuke, -3 declared war, -3 war spoils relationship). But in the actual game only Stalin is angry, all the others are annoyed. The test has multiple angry civs, so there are some hidden modifiers which are different somewhere.

Part of the issue with gifting things to Gandhi is that "free and fair trade" is based on total value divided by turns known. And we know everyone from turn 0, so the small value of initial techs is not going to get us much. Still, we should keep Sun Tzu Wu's suggestion in mind -- being able to trade early would be a significant boost. And while I dislike the idea of helping Gandhi become even more powerful, at least it is Gandhi. Even with aggressive AI turned on, he is much less of a threat than Mao or DeGaulle would be.

And while Gandhi might have wanted to eliminate us in the test game, he would have to find us first. :lol:
 
Note that when we boat a seafood resource we will automatically get +1 health. Going and working the workboat tiles while growing nets 4 commerce...working cow tiles doesn't net us any commerce.

Note that we simply cannot sim anything but the capital city, there is far too much uncertainty in the map for anything useful to be gained from anything else.

It should be a relatively straightforward math exercise, in any case.

The major issue I have with building a Work Boat first is that it takes 7 turns to Research Fishing and thus we can start a Work Boat on turn 7 at the earliest.

Yes, I agree that we need the Health while growing. Also, Commerce is important, but we need Hammers to build things and whipping often isn't the best way to do that with Plains Cow, Grassland Cow, and Plains Hill Gold Plots accessible (after removing Fallout which requires Workers).

haphazard1's test only went to Population 4 and not Population 6 as I would prefer. While a Mathematical Analysis of arriving at either Population goals may be straightforward, its a stretch for me to do it flawlessly. I really think that using the test save is the only way to validate the results of using Logistical System/Operational Strategies with the goal of Optimality (or as close as humanly possible to this goal).

While I tend to agree that Researching Fishing and building Warrior -> Work Boat may well be the best start. There may actually be a better start that simply isn't as obvious. Let me make a small assumption: Based solely on their performance in SGOTM-11, I'm guessing that neither the Gold Laurels Team or Silver Laurels Team of SGOTM-11 will simply assume that this is the best start because it obviously appears that way. I'll bet they will at least investigate other ways to start.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Part of the issue with gifting things to Gandhi is that "free and fair trade" is based on total value divided by turns known. And we know everyone from turn 0, so the small value of initial techs is not going to get us much. Still, we should keep Sun Tzu Wu's suggestion in mind -- being able to trade early would be a significant boost. And while I dislike the idea of helping Gandhi become even more powerful, at least it is Gandhi. Even with aggressive AI turned on, he is much less of a threat than Mao or DeGaulle would be.

That is why I suggested that we gift Technologies to Gandhi, if necessary, as soon as we complete a Technology and thus get the maximum Fair Trading Diplomatic bonus for doing so, since we are thus minimizing the number of turns know as best we can. Sorry about not making this point clear enough.

Giving Fishing to Gandhi after knowing him for just 8 turns shouldn't be too bad, probably at least +1 or maybe even +2.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
In my opinion, it is imperative that we get on good terms with Gandhi as soon as Possible to improve our Diplomacy so we can also trade with him like all the other AIs that contact him. Even if it means we have to build a Settler and found a City near Gandhi to give to him for the +4 Fair Trading bonus that may be worthwhile. We can make sure the City has no value to Gandhi and is actually an Anchor that drags down his Economy, assuming this furthers our Grand Strategy.

Sun Tzu Wu

I agree with this strategy. I would like to see us go for a cottage economy with the option of Spies , like you suggested, and pop a GS or two for academies at most.

As to the start, I disagree in that I think AI management is going to be the key here. The starting spot is obvious. I think it sets up a mid-game challenge.

I'd do the math and test save but I've got work and class today.
 
Checking in, and looking forward to a great game.

I agree that the 2N1E spot seems to be our starting point, I would like other options, but I don't really see any.

To determine the best build order, should we set up some sort of table, so we can all help with finding the best start, and afterwards easier compare them?

I'm going to play a couple of test games, where I start with worker first, to see where that gets me.
 
Tried a couple of tests, with worker and BW first, so I could immediately chop the forest 1 south.

I could get to size 6 at turn 57 with both gold, both cows worked, and 2 workboats.
Build order was Worker, 1t Warrior, Workboat, Worker, Workboat, Warrior.
Research was Bronze Working, Sailing, AH.

I could get the same at turn 60, and a settler, by switching the second worker and workboat.

From this I think we should consider going for an early forest chop.
 
McArine,

Interesting, I think your turn 60 completion with the settler is a better start than the first one you mentioned. Can you sim going Warrior/Workboat first with fishing first (I assume you meant fishing when you said sailing
 
Yes of course I meant fishing.

With build order Warrior, WB, WB, Worker, Worker. I was finished with a settler and all 6 improvements in turn 70. But I also had a granary and half a library by then. The improvements held me back here.

With build order Warrior, WB, Worker, WB, Worker, Granary, Settler. Settler and all 6 improvements was finished on turn 66.
No chopping was used in these scenarios.

One other thing to note, in these two scenarios I didn't switch to slavery, I did that in the two first.

Also, when choosing the tiles to work, I've picked: Cow 1w, cow 1se, gold 2w, gold 1sw. When doing it this way you don't need to build a road to hook up the first gold, that is taken care of by the river.
Also worth noting, the game apperently rounds down on unhealthyness from pollution. When removing the first tile of pollution, so we have 5 tiles, it drops from 3 to 2.
 
Okay so basically, what's preferred?

a)I could get to size 6 at turn 57 with both gold, both cows worked, and 2 workboats.
Build order was Worker, 1t Warrior, Workboat, Worker, Workboat, Warrior.
Research was Bronze Working, Fishing, AH.
b)I could get the same at turn 60, and a settler, by switching the second worker and workboat.
Build order was Worker, 1t Warrior, Workboat, Workboat, Worker, Warrior.
Research was Bronze Working, Fishing, AH.
c) Or this method:
Build order was: Warrior, WB, Worker, WB, Worker, Granary, Settler on turn 66
-No chops

I would say that Option A is the fastest to get to where we want to be. Option C is second best keeping our chops for later,but at a cost of 9 turns.
 
Had a quick play with the test save, haven't crunched in the numbers but did notice that getting peace with the AI was quite varied. First game, I could get peace with everyone but DeGaulle in the first couple of turns. Next game was everyone but Gandhi (could bribe him with AH).

As I said, didn't crunch numbers but it seemed that worker first was the best option. The AI sent out workboats and scouts to explore not warriors, so I think we are safe (with no barbs and huts) for a while building workboats and workers. The cow tiles (4f2h) are our best tiles so we should be aiming for those 2 online as quick as possible. With so much food, I think getting a GS popped quick should be our goal, so maybe Fishing, AH, BW, Wheel and Writing is our tech path. Also lends itself to cottaging as well.

Do I dare mention Great Lighthouse? Seemed a winner of a play in the last SGOTM. Space means large empire, means many trade routes. Fractal is generally a sea based map, not many large continents. Coastal towns with many traderoutes could power our research.
 
To determine the best build order, should we set up some sort of table, so we can all help with finding the best start, and afterwards easier compare them?

The person in charge of the table could insert it into the next post, maybe via CODE brackets. Things we could track that may be too tedious to do are Food, Hammers and Commerce output per turn, Net Health, and turns when the Population increases. However, it should suffice to say when Population 6 was achieved and the turn when all initial goals (units, buildings, technologies, ...) are completed.

Tried a couple of tests, with worker and BW first, so I could immediately chop the forest 1 south.

I could get to size 6 at turn 57 with both gold, both cows worked, and 2 workboats.
Build order was Worker, 1t Warrior, Workboat, Worker, Workboat, Warrior.
Research was Bronze Working, Sailing, AH.

I could get the same at turn 60, and a settler, by switching the second worker and workboat.

From this I think we should consider going for an early forest chop.

Excellent work! I'm actually a bit surprised that Worker first was better, given it would take 20t to build. On the other hand, building a Warrior for 7-8 turns doesn't help growth much while we wait for Fishing to be completed.

Sailing is a excellent choice, but we may want The Wheel instead.

Yes of course I meant fishing.

With build order Warrior, WB, WB, Worker, Worker. I was finished with a settler and all 6 improvements in turn 70. But I also had a granary and half a library by then. The improvements held me back here.

With build order Warrior, WB, Worker, WB, Worker, Granary, Settler. Settler and all 6 improvements was finished on turn 66.
No chopping was used in these scenarios.

One other thing to note, in these two scenarios I didn't switch to slavery, I did that in the two first.

Also, when choosing the tiles to work, I've picked: Cow 1w, cow 1se, gold 2w, gold 1sw. When doing it this way you don't need to build a road to hook up the first gold, that is taken care of by the river.
Also worth noting, the game apperently rounds down on unhealthyness from pollution. When removing the first tile of pollution, so we have 5 tiles, it drops from 3 to 2.

Again excellent work. Could you mention the Tech path in your latest test?

Once we are working two Cow Pastures and two Gold Mines, we have 12 Hpt Base and it doesn't take long to build anything except Great or National Wonders.

It is really great that Catherine has Imperialistic (+50% Hammer bonus for building Settlers). The Base 12 Hpt at Population 6 increases to 18 Hpt for Settlers, excluding any Hammers from Excess Food.

Sun Tzu Wu

P.S. I hope no Team settles in place; their growth would be at best 0 Fpt at -2 Health.
 
Okay so basically, what's preferred?

a)I could get to size 6 at turn 57 with both gold, both cows worked, and 2 workboats.
Build order was Worker, 1t Warrior, Workboat, Worker, Workboat, Warrior.
Research was Bronze Working, Fishing, AH.
b)I could get the same at turn 60, and a settler, by switching the second worker and workboat.
Build order was Worker, 1t Warrior, Workboat, Workboat, Worker, Warrior.
Research was Bronze Working, Fishing, AH.
c) Or this method:
Build order was: Warrior, WB, Worker, WB, Worker, Granary, Settler on turn 66
-No chops

I would say that Option A is the fastest to get to where we want to be. Option C is second best keeping our chops for later,but at a cost of 9 turns.

Can we get a history of each option noting important turns when a unit, building or technology was completed? Similar to what haphazard1 provided for his test run. Also, I don't think that option c's Research path was completely defined.

We are probably going to want to have at least twice the numbers of Workers for initial development as we start clearing Fallout to future City Sites prior to settling them such that Net Health is at least 0. (And many, many more in the mid-game and late-game as the Fallout clean up around the Globe continues.)

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I think the research path was the same in all 3 Wu. You're right that it wasn't exactly spelled out.

At some point guys, we are going to have to start. Just pointing that out.

Table of Starts is posted in summary tab 1 on first page. Please PM or post in this thread and I will add test starts. I apologize but I cannot test because I'm under time constraints with PhD Classes, moving jobs as an Economist (up) and a wife. That's why I volunteered to help organize the thread. Please look at the table and PM me what I need to know, and all saves should be played to turn 60 so we can compare across saves.
Techs are listed at TECH (Turn completed)
For various items, they are listed when they are accomplish. For example Hap had 2 workers on turn 50 and 1cows pasturized on turn 52


Code:
Starting Plan  Research Order (Turn Learned)                                                   Work  Cows  Gold  Fish    War      Granary Library      (At Turn 60)  Health  Hammers  Coins
Hap 1            Fish (8) BW (22) AH (39) Sail (49) Wh (54)                                  2@50 1@52  N/A   2@36
Mc 1             BW (17)  Fish (22) AH (34) Wh (42) Pot (50) Writ (57)                   2@37 2@45 2@54 2@48  1@51    1@58
Mc 2
Mc 3


Notes:
Starting Plan Author and Strat
Settle 2N 1E
Size 6 --> What we need to work 2 fish, 2 cows, and 2 gold
 
Top Bottom