SGOTM 12 - Ivan

[AlanH]

Welcome to your SGOTM 12 team thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results page on February 9th, at midnight, server local time.

This time we have an archipelago on a standard size map with 30 rivals (yes, that's every Civ in the book, so you know who they are), and everyone is destined to remain feudal for the entire game. You start with a settler and a worker as usual, and the AI all start with two settlers a lots of Deity units .... also as usual. But since there's not a lot of room for expansion, no one can build any more settlers.

Seafaring and Scientific Theodora finds herself in a world with 30 other civilizations. She and her Dromons are on a mission to bring civilized diplomacy to the masses ... whether they like it or not. The winners of this game will be the succession team that reaches a Diplomatic Victory by the earliest game date. All victory conditions are enabled, but only a UN vote in your favour will bring the laurels. Thanks once more to Gyathaar for the concept and map.

Here's the start.

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Byzantine
Difficulty - Deity
Opponents - 30
World - Standard, Archipelago, 70% water, 4 billion years old, warm and wet
Barbarians - Roaming

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Knowing Gyathaar as we do, the map may have been tweaked

Game mods:
We shall use the default rules as defined in the SGOTM Reference Thread, with the following changes specific to this game:

- All Civs start in Feudalism, and cannot adopt another form of government.
- No Civ can build Settlers.
- As city counts are limited, all Civs get ten extra free units in Feudalism.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included. If you have played previous C3C SGOTMs then you will be ready. Other players will need to download and unzip this small graphics mod pack. Details are provided in the SGOTM Reference Thread..

Please ensure that you have included the line: NoAIPatrol=0 in your conquests.ini text file:

A 'fix' for the Barbarians!:
As many of you know, the barbarians in C3C are 'broken'. This can be fixed by going to your \Conquest\ folder, and opening your Conquests.ini file, and adding a line noaipatrol=0 to the file. Whilst we cannot force people to do this, it will make the game a bit more interesting if you do. If you are not comfortable editing your .ini file, you can download a utility here to do it automatically.

Players running Civ3 Complete for Macintosh should contact me if they have any problems with the mod. If they are not running the Rev A version they will need to use FileValet to compress their saves for upload, and they may also need to use it to 'clean' downloaded saves before playing.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared, skipping references to PtW or Vanilla versions of Civ3.

The GOTM Reference Thread.
The SGOTM Reference Thread.

Notes:

A. ONLY Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for a single award set.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - the laurels will be awarded for the fastest Diplomatic victory. The wooden spoons will go to the team with the lowest final Jason score, having completed the game one way or another.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun

 

[AutomatedTeller]

woohooo!!!

we are here!!

So excited

Have many thoughts, but will give our illustrious leader the priviledge of being first to pontificate...

 

[I. Larkin]

OK, I am in.
Will write detais soon and hope for "on line like" discussion later today.
In sohort. Settle SE, road Ivory, road, Irrigate, irrigate, road Cattels.
Build order: Curragh, warrior, warrior, worker, curragh.
Research IW at max.
Any other ideas?
Anybody wish to start? Any suggestion about roster order / amount of turns to play?
The reason I ask because first 20 turn relatevly simple, difficulty will come when we will have more contacs and trade options.
This is "Plan" in doc file looks better fill free to take it and insert coments.
Turn Year Food Shields Science Worker Comments
2 3900*BC 3 3 4 "Woker finished"*road
3 3850*BC 6 6 8 "Woker finished"*move
4 3800*BC 9 9 12 wokerwork[4]
5 3750*BC 12 12 16 wokerwork[5]
6 3700*BC 15 15 (0) 21 "Woker finished"*road Curragh
7 3650*BC 18 3 26 wokerwork[7]
8 3600*BC 20 7 32 wokerwork[8] Size 2
9 3550*BC 23 10 (0) 38 wokerwork[9]
10 3500*BC 27 3 44 "Woker finished"*irrigate
11 3450*BC 31 7-8 50 "Woker finished"*move Culture border expand,
12 3400*BC 37 10 55 wokerwork[12] Warrior
13 3350*BC 40 6 62 wokerwork[13] Size 3
14 3300*BC 46 10 0 68 wokerwork[14] warrior
15 3250*BC 53 4 76 "Woker finished"*irrigate
16 3200*BC 60 10 84 wokerwork[16] Size 3, worker
17 3150*BC 48 91 wokerwork[17]
18 3100*BC 51 98 "Woker finished"*road
19 3050*BC 54 84 Woker move to Ivory Curragh
20 3000*BC 57 89 wokerwork[20]

Long-term plan depend on neighbours, and do we have Iron nearby. Dilemma is do we need SoZ and how soon? Before Granary/Barracks or after? With this starting position I see no problem for AA. For MA we need more Cities. This is research game and first team build UN will win, I think. In MA better to organize AI in 3-4 approximately equal civs. It will be optimal for research rate.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

A couple of things:

Do we want to irrigate cows, or mine them? We dont' start in despotism, so we could mine them both and still get 5 food.

Do we try for Collosus?
A bunch of AI's are going to go for Ironworking - should we start with writing? Should we just do minimum research, on the assumption that we will make a lot of contacts really fast and get all the techs?

How do we get to size 12 fastest? Is that something we need to do? Probably the fastest way to get to size 12 is to produce 5 or 6 workers, then join them back in once everything is connected.

How many workers do we want to connect us to other civs?

Do we try for SoZ, or should we assume we dont' have all the ivory in the world...

 

[I. Larkin]

A couple of things:

1.Do we want to irrigate cows, or mine them? We dont' start in despotism, so we could mine them both and still get 5 food.

2.Do we try for Collosus?
3.A bunch of AI's are going to go for Ironworking - should we start with writing? Should we just do minimum research, on the assumption that we will make a lot of contacts really fast and get all the techs?

4.How do we get to size 12 fastest? Is that something we need to do? Probably the fastest way to get to size 12 is to produce 5 or 6 workers, then join them back in once everything is connected.

How many workers do we want to connect us to other civs?

5. Do we try for SoZ, or should we assume we dont' have all the ivory in the world...

1. 2 irrigated Cows will give 7 fpt+, that mean grow 3 turn each without granary, or at size 6+ 3 tuns with Granary. We will mine them back at size 12.
2. Well it is Deity, you know...
3. AI normally research 1 level tech first. Obviously after 7-8 turn they meet each other, and start HBR, Mysticizm, IW, Writing. IW is cheaper and the best chanse for "local monopoly".
Also it let us know where Iron is (If any).
4. Good idea but, probably, exploit.
5. Should find out and decide.

 

[AlanH]

4. Good idea but, probably, exploit.

No, it's not an exploit. You will have used the food to make the workers, used the workers, then put the food back to make up the population again. You got the work they did, in exchange for shields. Not a problem.

 

[nerovats]

Joining workers as far as I know is only considered an exploit when used to pop-rush.

Just quick reply for now will check in later the evening for more comments but for now:
Basically agree with Ivan's plan, but was gona suggest no research. Since we have just 1 civ and there are 30 AI, we can't possible keep up. I don't see a change of getting a monopoly on any tech for a while. Might be better to lay back get save gold and buy the tech after most of the AI have it and we can get it cheap. Exploring will be most important, meet everyone to trade. Also get friends and choose targets. To get to goal fastest we need more cities, preferably close ones. No wonders, including SoZ, worker joining is good strat.

 

[glenmetz]

We'll need to conquer as many nearby cities as possible. I say we research writing at min, buy techs, and make as many contacts as possible. We'll also need to pump out our most effective offensive units ASAP. Do we start with Warrior Code? If so, we may want to skip the warriors and build Archers unless the warriors will be used for MP duties.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

we do not start with warrior code - we do start with spears, and we may want to think about making spears instead of warriors.

The question is- what is the AI going to do, not being to expand? will they go to war immediately? or will they build wonders? My guess is that they will war pretty quickly.

This also depends on what the map parameters being "tweaked" are.

In one sense, we dont' care about how fast we research, as long as the world gets to the IA as fast as possible and we are able to do research as fast as possible in the IA, when the AI will go off into nationalism/communism/fascism hell.

It would not surprise me in the least to find out we have no iron - also, if we do, we will probably have to create a colony to get it. Maybe they give it to us on that little hill - bets?

 

[I. Larkin]

Basically agree with Ivan's plan, but was gona suggest no research.

Zero research at conquest is not a good idea.
Buy tech is more expensive then research ourself.
We are scientific and have to use our power. Also, at the time we make contact with many AI but AI will contact only few each other we may manipulate. At this stage any single turn may make a difference. I belive, that we will get more if research fast.

No wonders, including SoZ.

Why? What we are going to build? We have 12 unit limit, and probably no Iron. Any improuvement will cost money. I rate AC in 50 Sch, so if SoZ will work at least 40 turns it is OK. Also tourist attraction. The only question when?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

btw - good point about 7 fp - much better than 5!

as to builds:

We need barracks, market, library, harbor and units.

I would not, at all, be adverse to building both collosus and SoZ.

Would it make sense for someone to see what the AI does in a situation like this? I can probably spend some time tonight whipping up a scenario like this - no settlers to be produced, all 30 civs. it won't have the map tweaks (shudder to think what they are - there's a fair chance we are on an island by ourselves), but might show us what the AI does without the ability to build settlers. It won't be building workers

 

[I. Larkin]

1) we do not start with warrior code - we do start with spears, and we may want to think about making spears instead of warriors.

2) The question is- what is the AI going to do, not being to expand? will they go to war immediately? or will they build wonders? My guess is that they will war pretty quickly.

3) This also depends on what the map parameters being "tweaked" are.

4) In one sense, we dont' care about how fast we research, as long as the world gets to the IA as fast as possible and we are able to do research as fast as possible in the IA, when the AI will go off into nationalism/communism/fascism hell.

5) It would not surprise me in the least to find out we have no iron - also, if we do, we will probably have to create a colony to get it. Maybe they give it to us on that little hill - bets?

1) After 3 warrior we may build 1 Spear. AI program make difference is the Spear in the City or not,
2) AI limit 44 units. They start with 14-15, so in 60 -80 turns (approximately) ((more if they will build wonders)) we may expect massive wars and "demands". Obviously we will not cave to overseas demands for "war happines".
3) well, If we alone on Island it is relif. In this case SoZ is a good option. May be even befor Barracks.
4) Also Ai will researc Monarchy and Republic...
I again stress that we have to research something to get benefite from "Many AI, Low contact ratio" situation. When they get MM, things will not be that good.
5) I will not surprize if opposite. Fersh Water, 2 Cows, good commerce. Why not to give us Iron?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

well, we have 6 ivories, which strongly suggests SoZ, is all.

 

[I. Larkin]

1) We need barracks, market, library, harbor and units.

2) I would not, at all, be adverse to building both collosus and SoZ.

3) Would it make sense for someone to see what the AI does in a situation like this? I can probably spend some time tonight whipping up a scenario like this - no settlers to be produced, all 30 civs. it won't have the map tweaks (shudder to think what they are - there's a fair chance we are on an island by ourselves), but might show us what the AI does without the ability to build settlers. It won't be building workers

1) my order list is units, barracks, library, dormons, harbor dormon and market.
2) Colosus no way. It is many Sci AI that start it from the beginig. But SoZ with prebuild why not?
3) if you have an experience to make scenario, please do. Why you did not it earlier?

Who will start and when?

 

[nerovats]

A AC is 40 shields (same as gaelic swordsman). Building SoZ will take 200 shields and has the risk of getting something like a 180 shield library. We could also build 10 archers for sure. If archipello is nicelyspread research could pay off, but we should check howlong research will take. One city won't give much science. It would surprise me if we could get collussus, since several civs will start on it. If we want SoZ we should prioritize growth by worker joining.

 

[Nitfan]

I agree with I. Larkin that zero or minimum research will get us backwards and in a position to never catch up. I think we need to treat this like one would play a minimum land archipelago map. We are seafaring and scientific so for the tech pace we need to bank on meeting enough civs that we will be able to trade with atleast someone.

I think we need to decide on either SoZ or the Colossus. I doubt we will even have a shot at building the Colossus. Automated Teller if you are going to make a mock scenerio make sure you put some civs on water with decent start positions and see if we would even have a shot at building it. If we try to build it and miss we might as well stop playing the game right there because we won't have mathematics yet to switch to SoZ. For that reason I feel like the Colossus is just to risky. I would bank on it being completed by about 3000BC by the AI if not before.

 

[I. Larkin]

A AC is 40 shields (same as gaelic swordsman). Building SoZ will take 200 shields and has the risk of getting something like a 180 shield library. We could also build 10 archers for sure. If archipello is nicelyspread research could pay off, but we should check howlong research will take. I city won't give much. It would surprise me if we could get collussus, since several civs will start on it. If we want SoZ we should prioritize growth by worker joining.

We are not going to build Colosus. Also, we are not going to Build SoZ now. (But may in 30 - 35 turns start prebuild).
I see 2 possible scenario: 1) We have Iron and Company and then try to damage AI wth sneak sword attack.
2) We have no Iron and Company, then we Build SoZ.

It is very unlikely, that somebody else have Ivory.
This City is very effective. With Lib it is 40 bpt approximately...

 

[nerovats]

Since you made initial plan I suggest you start. Should decide wether to do science or not first though. Only 4 checked in so far, who do I miss Niftan?

As earlier asked I'm at GMT+1 (Netherlands)

Not sure if AT spotted the 3rd cow, in SE.

 

[nerovats]

So it is agreed we do science get some ships, warriors and workers, then decide wether to do SoZ or not. Then science should be IW as initially suggested by Ivan.

 

[nerovats]

I will not surprize if opposite. Fersh Water, 2 Cows, good commerce. Why not to give us Iron?

Might be like that as there are also a couple of jungle tiles nearby, which also could have some nice bonusses lateron. But could also be some cheese to trap us mice.