SGOTM 12 - Ivan

[nerovats]

Yes we can declare now, but should wait at least 1 turns after getting Persia in before landing. (they appear to lack horses).
We have 4 elite's, but they will defend first so might lose them if we take them along. Maybe better to send vets, then come back for elites and try to fish on whatever we get from Memphis.

After that war I think we should take out Maya and Inca, they should have lot's of old units, ideal for leader farming, and they will complete our productive ring. Also they are both average to us. All other cities will only be usefull as science farms.

Kyoto should be mm to get MI next turn then back to 4 food and grow in 3 from now.

Are we gona use LB's for disbanding? Then we should do it now. We just need couple more commerce to get Astro in 6.

For science I think we should go banking next, several civ already have Invention, I think some of them will be on Gunpowder nest, probably France to get their UU.

 

[I. Larkin]

1) Yes we can declare now, but should wait at least 1 turns after getting Persia in before landing. (they appear to lack horses).
2) We have 4 elite's, but they will defend first so might lose them if we take them along. Maybe better to send vets, then come back for elites and try to fish on whatever we get from Memphis.

3) After that war I think we should take out Maya and Inca, they should have lot's of old units, ideal for leader farming, and they will complete our productive ring. Also they are both average to us. All other cities will only be usefull as science farms.

4) Kyoto should be mm to get MI next turn then back to 4 food and grow in 3 from now.

5) Are we gona use LB's for disbanding? Then we should do it now. We just need couple more commerce to get Astro in 6.

6) For science I think we should go banking next, several civ already have Invention, I think some of them will be on Gunpowder nest, probably France to get their UU.

Sometimes I have crazy ideas, but if "nothing teribly wrong with" it it may work fantastic. Please feel free to reply.
1) OK, here we agree. We can not to land 2 turns before.
2) "crazy idea": Wounded elite will not take hit first, so let send wounded elites for fishing.
3) "crazy idea 2": After Egypt go to China: it is short way. Army should fish for GL for FP in Thebes. We will give this Cities (and Arabs after) to Greeks. We need strong research partner.
It is better when Maya make irrigation. They already built road (to make Colony on Delhi horses). Also travel time to Maya looks too long. (But may be I am wrong).
4) Yes, I wrote about that. Next, I think It should build Pickman. Also we may bring AC for extra MP.
5) No, we are wery short of troops, boats... Probably we may strave someting (0% Lux, Many Scis at some point to get Astro 1 turn soonner).
6) I disagree. Now AI research 3 times slower, then we are. If we are not going to Shecspeare (and we decided not to go, is not we?), we will go to Newton ASAP. It may happend, that we research Banking and AI still research nothing and we start GP, and somebody research it in half way.
Lets make "well planed" path: Astro, GP, Che, Phy, ToE. It is resonable gift Edu to France and Sci Civs to accelerate overall research. I am thinking about not to "bribe" AI, but try to make them stronger that they make two Techs while we research one. with this rate we may hope to pass IA in resonable time. We may conquer Spain and Celts and give it to France, Hitties and Holland to Persia, South Island to Greeks; Inka, Sumeria and England To Ottos. Rome will go to us, no way...
It is plans only, and we have to work-out it better...

 

[nerovats]

We can probaly just get 2 ai strong researchers, France and maybe Greece (maybe others when better map), but that should be enough.

We can't send wounded elites as they will heal on the ship.

Don't know map by hart but I asume China is on Egypt continent, if so it might be logic, I will prevent shipping back and forth a lot. Need to see military adviser how strong they are. Maybe we can trick a civ on declaring on us to get some happiness.

I do think we should make sure we get some units to defend against Maya/Inca. It's ok to have few units on islands which are our own, but if ai has city on it we should expect to be attacked. We should try to keep army as large as possible to discourage ai.

Agree on point 5, we just need 20-30 extra commerce to get science down 1 turn, should be no problem, won't get it down aonther any way.

Sience is gamble, this game is developing differently from what I expected. I played games when I expected the AI to research something and they never did, and alos games in wich I didn't expect them and then they did discover something after I invested several turns on it. We shopuld decide to take gamble and do baking and maybe something else or go GP for sure. Will need to look at save again to estimate science of ai, but then again maybe France is researcjing theology. Don't give it to them at least until Astro to prevent losing pre-build.

After we make sure we get science wonders we can gift any tech we get to 2 or 3 strong researchers to make sure they don't spend research on something we already know. France is obvious, looks like Persia and another?

Otto's are on our island they have just 1 city which is enough to get free tech, better to get Sumeria bigger? Have to open save for that, now it's 24:00, good night.

 

[I. Larkin]

Good night, (good morning, nerovats). China above Greeks.
It is many "pro - contra" where to go after Egypt, but it may happend, that it is resonable to make a decision after 6 turns.
May I ask Glenmetz to stop when Astro will researched, and hopefully Egypt will overer to stop and discuss what to do next? Now our discussion may be pointless if Maya declare, say.
Then we have to decide about "gambling". My lifestyle is to avoid gambling, but it is a game. As I said, we may go to Physics and give Education when start ToE, say. AI for sure will research Banking while we are doing ToG, Magnetism, Metalurgy, but they may not research GP while we research banking.
Look at this, may be we will use it at end MA.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-90177.html

 

[AutomatedTeller]

why not send a pikeman? a vet pike will defend before an elite MDI or AC

 

[nerovats]

We don't have any pikes so then we should first build them costing several turns. But we may just need a few as Egypts best attack is 2. We can get embassy to see how many units there are in Thebes, then decide what to do.

About Inca/Maya, I'm worried about them too. We could declare on Inca and let Maya do the fighting, we should get couple more troops to that continent, leave 1 city open to attackt the landings. That way we just need 4 extra MI. But it's no guarantee they will take the bait. But we used this succesfully before in SGOTM7?, also deity level.

Is it me or did Ottomans build a new city on the Island, they must have popped a hut then.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Ottomans were blocked by Inca - they never built their 2nd city.

We did have a pike or two, didn't we? did we lose them?

To get inca, I would suggest bringing in maya, yes. perhaps ottomans, as well.

 

[nerovats]

I thought Ottos had build 2nd city but that as razed by inca.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

oh - did they? they were a 1CC when i first saw them - I guess I assumed they hadn't built their 2nd city.

 

[glenmetz]

Alright, so what is my plan for this turnset?

 

[nerovats]

I'd startwith getting embassies with Persia and Egypt. See how many units are in Egypt capitol to decide which units to bring along. Then declare get Persia in wait 2 turns before landing to make sure most units have moved towards Persia and can't come back in 1 turn.
Get our FP city, try leaderfarming on whatever Egypt sends us. Wait til Persi finishes Egypt off, or maybe even send stack to other city and hope to claim it ourselve. But maybe best to give it away anyway as it mighflip later any way.
Try and keep this war as short as possible, then move large part of army back to India to declare on Maya, or find a new target on Egypt continent. After the war we should send at least some units to defend leaving some units to defend India/Portugal and Japan/Aztec islands.

Not sure if we want to declare on Inca as well, then we should first send some units to India, but that would delay, and lower chanceof succes on Egypt. So better to notdeclare on Inca and just keep fingrs crossed. Would like to send few units over there tho.

 

[I. Larkin]

I'd startwith getting embassies with Persia and Egypt. See how many units are in Egypt capitol to decide which units to bring along. Then declare get Persia in wait 2 turns before landing to make sure most units have moved towards Persia and can't come back in 1 turn.

OK, embassy in Egypt is optinal. That mean declare and bring Persia at war at preturn.

Get our FP city, try leaderfarming on whatever Egypt sends us. Wait til Persi finishes Egypt off, or maybe even send stack to other city and hope to claim it ourselve. But maybe best to give it away anyway as it mighflip later any way.

Try and keep this war as short as possible.

This is important obvious point and I thought you already come through. BTW, Thebes at the same distance (11) as Delhi, so FP may be discussed after. But Newton in Thebes is what we will do.

then move large part of army back to India to declare on Maya, or find a new target on Egypt continent. After the war we should send at least some units to defend leaving some units to defend India/Portugal and Japan/Aztec islands.

I consider it risky and unnessery. Better to do war in China, they can not reach us and it is shortest way from Egypt. If All want to Maya I recomend MA with Inca and some defencive war at the begining. Alternatively we may declare to Inca with MA with Maya. Way to Inca from Egypt lot shorter then to India. But I' d prefer to wait for GP and have some musketeers on Chock point to make war with Inka/Maya.

Not sure if we want to declare on Inca as well, then we should first send some units to India, but that would delay, and lower chanceof succes on Egypt. So better to notdeclare on Inca and just keep fingrs crossed. Would like to send few units over there tho.

We need all 5 ships for war in Egypt. After Thebes 1 will bring smthing to India. We may send somebody to Maya Chock point.
What is important, but nobody discuss is a trade after ASTRONOMY It will a lot of new stuff. All Lux ours, Persia GA will give a lot of cash. Do not miss it!
Also, for fastest Newton after Astronomy Gunpoweder

 

[AutomatedTeller]

are we thinking of putting newtons' in thebes? Did I read that right?

That is a good point, about being able to get luxes after we get astronomy. Do we need all luxes?

Are we keeping track of the number of civs we have declared on, btw? We take an attitude hit for each one - we can over come those, of course, but we should take care not to piss off more civs than we can afford to, and we probably should be careful not to leave any civ we do attack alive for the UN vote.

I'm fine with waiting on Inca - where is china tech wise? any worries of riders?

btw - where is france on tech? we might want to get them to education if we are going to gunpowder, so they can research banking and maybe waste time going for printing press/democracy.

 

[I. Larkin]

1) are we thinking of putting newtons' in thebes? Did I read that right?

2) Do we need all luxes?

3) Are we keeping track of the number of civs we have declared on, btw? We take an attitude hit for each one - we can over come those, of course, but we should take care not to piss off more civs than we can afford to, and we probably should be careful not to leave any civ we do attack alive for the UN vote.

4) I'm fine with waiting on Inca - where is china tech wise? any worries of riders?

5) btw - where is france on tech? we might want to get them to education if we are going to gunpowder, so they can research banking and maybe waste time going for printing press/democracy.

Nut sure about "we" but "I" am thinking to put Newton in Thebes. With all gems on GL it owerhemlet any City with commerce. In addition we can use Palace to prebuild Newton in Thebes. FP in Thebes may be resonable, it is a bit corrupt may be corthouse will give the same effect? (30-40%, BTW what rank Delhi and Thebes? Who move first? India? Egypt? Maya?). Also not that productive as Constantinople. In reality Newton is not far away, so we have to finish Lib and Uni in Thebes ASAP with some disband. And start prebuild. Well, when I here the repot that Thebes is ours?
2) Yes to make Kyoto happy we need all lux. After full granary size 12 Kyoto build worker and after GP discovered, Horses.
3) Whell, It was Japan and Azteks. Both dead.
4) China at AA, no riders. Basic idea is a Leader fishing so not to attack Cities much. Sure MA with somebody. Iroques. Or Russia? Or Dogpit? Not greeks, if we capture Shanhai, we will give it to Greeks.
5) well let trade (After Astronomy!) Teology first to France and may be Persia. Then we will see what to do with Education. Scandinavia may get Republic for silk.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

ahh lots of gems woudl do it - I haven't looked at the save recently. yes, doubling gems is better than doubling ivory...

 

[glenmetz]

Alright, so it looks like I'm to declare on Egypt, and sign the Persians in.
After 2 turns, attack and hopefully take Thebes
Any build orders I should be looking at for newly founded towns? Libs, Unis, Units in that order?
I will stop for discussion when I hit the next tech.

 

[nerovats]

Nut sure about "we" but "I" am thinking to put Newton in Thebes.

It would be great to get Newton there, but then we must get leader to FP first. If we don't get 1 before we can build it, we should build Newton in capitol, as leader farming is no exact science. No way to tell how long it'll take. Thebes will be to corrupt to build it without FP.

Indeed need all luxes, especially to get over size 12 later on. But that should be no problem. We own tons of luxes to trade. I haven't mentioned trading that much as we are by far the strongest civ, so not to worry to much about t. Just try to get as much cash as possible, without gifting potential targets key techs like powder.

Keep science of shortest path to Newton, before last required tech we should decide wether to get 1 or 2 optionals for trading th free techs of the ai.

 

[nerovats]

Any build orders I should be looking at for newly founded towns? Libs, Unis, Units in that order?

The key to this gam is science so optimize it by pop, libs, uni's and courts. Then maybe market for hapiness and units for war. We don't need that many cities building units as most ai have 2 cities, we can easily keep up with production. With our human tactics an average army is a sure thing.

We could do with a couple of more workers, maybe we should sacifice our least productive city(s) for worker farming. No we need to irrigate a lot to get to size 12 asap, then mine everything back to get production, then irrigate again after getting hospitals.

 

[I. Larkin]

It would be great to get Newton there, but then we must get leader to FP first. If we don't get 1 before we can build it, we should build Newton in capitol, as leader farming is no exact science. No way to tell how long it'll take. Thebes will be to corrupt to build it without FP.

2)Indeed need all luxes, especially to get over size 12 later on. But that should be no problem. We own tons of luxes to trade. I haven't mentioned trading that much as we are by far the strongest civ, so not to worry to much about t. Just try to get as much cash as possible, without gifting potential targets key techs like powder.

3)Keep science of shortest path to Newton, before last required tech we should decide wether to get 1 or 2 optionals for trading th free techs of the ai.

1)Calculation shows, that Thebes with Corthouse and with FP will be the same corrupt :30%. Which rank bigger Delhy or Thebes? So FP in Thebes is not that desperate. As I said we have nothing to prebuild in Constantinople. Anyway, let see on Thebes from "inside". Clear, we have to take it in 1 go.
2) Better not to trade our Lux to have reputation clean for sure. We easy can get ALL lux for our Techs.
3) No optional Techs. IF reputation clean we will get 1 level IA techs for GPT. We need Sanitation ASAP.

 

[glenmetz]

Here goes:

Whoever played before my hit enter to go right into the next turn

190BC (1)
Check Science sliders, make some changes here:
Bombay Beaker to Tax (astronomy in 7, saving an extra 2GPT)
Start loading troops up for assault on Thebes (will have to wait a turn for the elites to finish healing)

IBT
SoZ produces an AC
Greeks and French are building The Hanging Gardens

170BC (2)
Not much, other then I move the workers preparing to chop Tenochtitlan off of the forest tile as the chop will take 4 turns and the Uni will be done in 5. I would have wasted the shields. Elites still aren't fully healed.
Moving the new AC Kyoto as MP
Science down to 80, Astro in 6+5GPT

IBT
Nada

150BC (3)
Nada again, but all 5 Dromons are loaded and ready to go

IBT
Babylonians are building The Hanging Gardens
French complete Leos Workshop

130BC (4)
MP Gets to Kyoto, MM the food to grow next turn and add a Taxman
Dromon landing force travels channel to Persepolis
Make an Embassy in Thebes (45 gold) which has the following:
-Barracks
-Granary
-Temple
-Duct
-Colesseum
-Harbor
-4 Spears and another to be complete next turn
Build an Embassy with Persia (46 gold). They will not for anything go to war with us against Egypt. Now, looking at the 10 units coming towards Thebes and the 5 to be defending next turn, I still think we should go after them. We may be lucky enough to take both of thier cities. What do you all think, I wanted to leave it here and get everyones opinions? BTW, Xerxes is Polite towards us now.