SGOTM 12 - Ivan

[glenmetz]

OK, I'm going to give this a whirl now. I don't know if I can get to Memphis before Xerxes does. But, I think we planned on gifting that over anyways.

I trade Theo to anybody willing to give a good chunk of change to us.

 

[glenmetz]

30BC (9)
Make the following trades:
Persia-Theo for Monarch and 51+24gpt
Babylon-Theo for 46+8gpt
China-Republic for Furs and 1 gold
Scandinavia-Theo for Silks and 60+10gpt
France-Theo for Wool and 19+2gpt
Move an AC out to the incense hill to take a look at the Koreans
Lux at 0, Sci at 100, Gunpowder in 8+30 with 3 beakers and 2 taxmen

IBT
Egyptian Archer kills an MDI (5-1)
Osaka University->Pike
Persians, Babs, Vikings, and French are building Sistines
Looks like Korea is looking for some barbs

10BC (10)
Elite MDI kills Spear (6-1)
Elite MDI kills Archer (7-1)
With the Uni in, Gunpowder still in 7 with no Beakers (+36GPT)

IBT
The Persians take Memphis and the Egyptians are no longer a concern
Copernicus' is completed in Constantinople. They are no producing 105 beakes a turn!!!!! They start working on The Heroic Epic (8 turns) but this can be changed.

10AD (11)
I leave 2 LBs and an MDI in Thebes for defense and start loading up the rest for transfer back to the mainland.
With Copernicus' in, Sci is to 90, Gunpowder in 5+19 with 5 scientists. No taxmen anywhere.

Here is the current layout:

The save will be up on the maintenance page shortly.

 

[glenmetz]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm12/Ivan_SG012_AD0010_01.SAV

 

[I. Larkin]

@glenmetz
I don't think that you did it "on purpuse", however, I notice
that
1) You mine GL near Capital instead of plant forest, as I suggested,
2) You trade with China, though we discuss to go to war vs China after Egypt,
3) Build Market in Kyoto and Teno
4) and lot of minor things...
Do you read posts at all? And if you disagree, why you do not write about it?

 

[glenmetz]

1-That mine was being built at the beginning of my turnset
2-True, but we need about 20 turns to get our forces in order again
3-Kyote and Teno builds can be changed, they've started recently

 

[I. Larkin]

1-That mine was being built at the beginning of my turnset
2-True, but we need about 20 turns to get our forces in order again
3-Kyote and Teno builds can be changed, they've started recently

1) you are right, but I suggested to stop workers.
But, most probably Constantinople will not work on this tile at close future.
2) Disagree, we have to continue for GL fishing NOW. (Now means now).
Question is where? For my view China was safe and closest place. Cartage and Iroques are not good because of their UU, Arabia are strong and not so close. Will we break reputation if we declare to China and take Fur from somebody else?
3) Not that recently! Kyoto has 75 schields, it may build 2-3 units instead. The only resonable swich is Corthouse. Why you did not let it grow? It need 1 mor MP. Teno 39 sch. In we may swich it to MI or caravell.
However, I may "never mind" all this minor things, we all have different style of playing.
Actually, you perform main task well: Capture Thebes alive and weakly damaged (was it possible not to starve it?) and initiate fast Egypt fall. Sure I want it 2-3 turns soonner...
@ All
Astronomy (trade) and Copernicus (research) open a new era for us.
Now we dominate at this world. It is clear also, that military expansion will not benefit that much as before. We may disband our "army" in Thebes to have Lib and Uni ASAP, but if we research well ToG come in 35-40 turns. That mean, that we have to start pre- build "now" (here I j/k). May be we will do Newton in Teno? Or pre-build HE in Constantinople?
AT up, and first I want to know what he think.

 

[nerovats]

Why science at 90, we can reduce it the last 1-2 turns. Will take quick look at save after diner and comment. Don't have lot of time until weeend though. Hope Thebes is still a bit productive.

 

[I. Larkin]

Why science at 90, we can reduce it the last 1-2 turns. Will take quick look at save after diner and comment. Don't have lot of time until weeend though. Hope Thebes is still a bit productive.

Sure, sci may be up 100%. And all Sci everywhere.
Corruption in Thebes 47%. With FP 18%. With Corthouse 33%.

 

[nerovats]

Change builds to courts in Kyoto, Lisbon and Teno, also Delhi after uni.

Thebes should first build court it'll let us complete al buildings faster.

why not use Oporto for building workers?

Don't build pikes, build horses we should be able to trade for chivalry pretty soon, and put money to good use.

Next targets should be Maya then Inca, leave Ottos for free tech. Ivan, why did you suggest China, they are in far south and totally corrupted for us, and also no treath. Better to eliminate Inca and Maya, as those cities should still be a bit productive. After that we should have lot of knights to take out Rome.

Give education away, for free if neccesary. We need some ai to start on Banking. It will take them long time, we should hit IA in 50 turns or so.

Minor points: Kyoto should work elephant not the mined bg saves 4 science, disband the treb if we don't use it.

Ivan how can you tell how corrupted a city will be with FP or court?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

You can load up civ assist and it will tell you corruption levels.

If I'm up, I have to load up the game and see where we are.

First question I have is: what do people think about judicious poprushing for libs/courts? in our commerce heavy cities, like thebes, we really only need to work the gems - other tiles won't help that much, except for production, of course.

2 - I think we need a lib in thebes ASAP, to get an expansion to work more gems.

 

[I. Larkin]

1) Change builds to courts in Kyoto, Lisbon and Teno, also Delhi after uni.

2) Thebes should first build court it'll let us complete al buildings faster.

3) why not use Oporto for building workers?

4) Don't build pikes, build horses we should be able to trade for chivalry pretty soon, and put money to good use.

5) Next targets should be Maya then Inca, leave Ottos for free tech. Ivan, why did you suggest China, they are in far south and totally corrupted for us, and also no treath. Better to eliminate Inca and Maya, as those cities should still be a bit productive. After that we should have lot of knights to take out Rome.

6) Give education away, for free if neccesary. We need some ai to start on Banking. It will take them long time, we should hit IA in 50 turns or so.

7) Minor points: Kyoto should work elephant not the mined bg saves 4 science,
8) disband the treb if we don't use it.

9) Ivan how can you tell how corrupted a city will be with FP or court?

1) Yes, no, may be no, may be yes. Edit:Kyoto will build courthouse in 1 turn - worker -worker. Workers will go to join Thebes and Teno. :Edit close We have to decide about Newton NOW. It is 35-40 turn to ToG.
2) I think Lib first with 3 disbands. [Next turn it will appear]
3) Yes, I think it is best.
4) We do not know for sure how soon Chiv will be. But we need something to disbang in THEBES ASAP. After GP horses for sure.
5) Maya have to irrigate land first. We gain little (or even lose if Thebes lose it's Rank) If we take Maya. And it is a very long way. But I want GL FISHING ASAP. We can't start war with Maya NOW, but can do war in China. (MA with Iroques, say.
This is unclear task: my intuition says that we have to drive "AI system" out of equilibrium. We have to make some of them stronger (Persia, France, Scandinavia, Greeks, may be Sumeria) leave Sci alive, and remove those we do not need. . Well, Rome is something...
OK, Persia after City should have more GPT and hope they will pay for education. France will get it from TGL... Who else? It is olways sensible to give 25-100 gold first and get it back for tech. They be even "more polite."
7) Yes
8) NO, it is FREE UNIT (we do not pay for that.) But we may use it...
9) 47 and 18 from Civassist. 33 from corruption formula (may be wrong...)

 

[nerovats]

If Thebes will still be corrupted with FP it's probably still better to build Newton in Capitol, but that can be counted.
For now capitol should build more units. Don't build pikes, horses will move faster also for disband it will leave shields in units shorter time. In this game pikes are useless excpet for landings. But we can also land in neighbour lands then move large stack in. Could use Kyoto as worker farm as it's got granary, just try to keep it at 12 most of time (time growth turafter worker completion).
Could go for China but I do want extra units in former India. If we sign MA's against China 10 units should be enough down there.
We got all strong units we need now so can invest in horses in my eyes. If we cn get capitol to 30 we could get 2 pikes for landings lateron, but not if it costs a tun in science of course.

Which version of civassist is that? I use II but I don't see corrupton level.

 

[I. Larkin]

I have no idea how to make tabulator work at text, file with table attached. In Civ assist 2
in "Economy" you may see this table. You also may see what happend if you move palace, build FP.
City Size Shields Waste Science
Const 12 25 0 % 105
Teoti 6 6 12 % 16
Osaka 9 5 18 % 28
Tenocht 7 8 17 % 30
Kyoto 12 5 35 % 28
Delhi 7 5 43 % 18
Thebes 8 4 47 % 16
Bombay 7 3 59 % 10
Oporto 4 2 71 % 3
Lisbon 6 2 78 % 3
City Size Shields Waste Science
Constan 12 25 0 % 105
Teotihu 6 6 11 % 18
Osaka 9 5 15 % 28
Tenoch 7 9 14 % 32
Kyoto 12 6 29 % 30
Delhi 7 5 35 % 21
Thebes 8 6 18 % 25
Bombay 7 4 48 % 12
Oporto 4 3 59 % 4
Lisbon 6 3 64 % 4

 

[I. Larkin]

1) If Thebes will still be corrupted with FP it's probably still better to build Newton in Capitol, but that can be counted.
2) For now capitol should build more units.
3) Don't build pikes, horses will move faster also for disband it will leave shields in units shorter time. In this game pikes are useless excpet for landings. But we can also land in neighbour lands then move large stack in.
4) Could use Kyoto as worker farm as it's got granary, just try to keep it at 12 most of time (time growth turafter worker completion).
5) Could go for China but I do want extra units in former India. If we sign MA's against China 10 units should be enough down there.
We got all strong units we need now so can invest in horses in my eyes. If we cn get capitol to 30 we could get 2 pikes for landings lateron, but not if it costs a turn in science of course.

Also to AT:
"Base" of constantinople is 35 gpt, and Thebs 46-49 gpt with 33% corruption it is the same. Problem is that Constantinople have nothing to prebuild but Thebes have to build a lot before. We will build Newton in Capital 8 turns after ToG if use HE for "prebuild".
2) Yes Caravell and MI, Mmn for 20 spt.
3) I wrote opposite. We need some musk for unload, and WILL buid horses after GP. It is just 4-5 turns for Picks.
4) YES. I do not understand why it do not grow. AT, please, change for corthouse and then for 3 turns worker factory. After work this workers will go to Teno. Bring 1 more AC to Kyoto for MP.
Teno may build MI and Pickman.
5) It is hard question, let us all say about that. I mean our future military plans.

Can we disband 1 or 3 units in Thebes to have Lib soonner?

 

[I. Larkin]

Thebes and Dheli at the same distance,and was found the same year.
Why thebes rank "bigger". If we capture Maya's City, it is also 11 distance. Which rank it will have?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Thebes ranks bigger because there is an arbitrary tie break in the ranking system. I do not know which will rank bigger if we add another city at the same distance.

More tonight - I downloaded the save last night and took a look.

a couple of things:

disbanding 2 longbows and pop=rushing will give us a lib in thebes.
The portugese cities are both pretty corrupt right now and lisbon doesn't have many high commerce tiles - it may make sense to change it's current build to a courthouse and pop rush it, while setting all citizens on high commerce tiles. With a court and with an FP in existence, they get much less corrupt, but without those, we are much better off just making it a specialist farm - or maybe even giving them to korea.

 

[Nitfan]

So did we come to a conclusion on where we were going to go leader fishing? Also it seems like it was the general concensus that we were pretty much done expanding as far as useful cities goes. What is the plan as far as taking out civs for farms/gifting?

Also how much time do we have before Paris is going to hit 20k because I don't see how that won't be an issue as AT stated awhile back.

 

[I. Larkin]

disbanding 2 longbows and pop=rushing will give us a lib in thebes.

I thought we need 3...
OK, we may wayt 1 turn, disband 1 LB and p-r, (lib in 2)
Or disband 3 LB now and get Lib next turn.
I prefer second, but agree with first.

The portugese cities are both pretty corrupt right now and lisbon doesn't have many high commerce tiles - it may make sense to change it's current build to a courthouse and pop rush it, while setting all citizens on high commerce tiles. With a court and with an FP in existence, they get much less corrupt, but without those, we are much better off just making it a specialist farm - or maybe even giving them to korea.

It may pamp worker and/or do "soft - poprushing" like collect 10 Sch, and p/r trebuhet and swich to C/h, collect 10 more and p-r Granary and swich to c/h...
Bombay, BTW need C/h first. Use forest cut and soft p-r.
I do not think that it will be any use for Korea to hav portugal Cities...

 

[I. Larkin]

1)So did we come to a conclusion on where we were going to go leader fishing?
2) Also it seems like it was the general concensus that we were pretty much done expanding as far as useful cities goes. What is the plan as far as taking out civs for farms/gifting?

3) Also how much time do we have before Paris is going to hit 20k because I don't see how that won't be an issue as AT stated awhile back.

Not yet! I put some ideas, but before I work out details I'd like to have a "second opinion".
2 )Wel, it is, Rome and Chichen might be useful, but Rome need a lot of Military to take and Chichen make increase corruption in Delhi and Thebes.
Are there a way to understand RANK of CHICHEN?? Is it alowed to make "false retirement" to find out what City was found first? Or there is a "soft way" to find out it?
3) I think we have about 280-300 turns for that. We will lose competition if play that long. We have to make AI research faster. (Good question how...)

 

[nerovats]

A quick estimate would give 250 turns to win, so it is getting close if Ivan is right abou Paris. But we can always destroy it the turn before. Somethin to keep an eye on.

Maya and Inca do hve bad terrain smayb it is better to take on another oponent with lot of grassland for science farming. I am worried about the safety of former India. We definatly need to send units there.

Other opponents could be Rome still close, but I expect them to be to strong right now. To bad we haven't got better map now. We could stay on the Egypt island and chose the Dutch, if they haven't recruited the swiss yet. Anyhow we must not break deals for diplo win. Also if we wat to reduce some civs we can start some wars without actually participating. We could declare on a civ and sign MA with all other civs on that island. That we we can be sure the civ we declare on will lose. Also it will weaken the other civs so we can land5-10 turns later and declare on next civ.

If we go to China it's a long way back if some civ makes an error. Can we get some units to block direct acces from Korea and Maya? I'm notaffraid of landings as ai is terrible at that, but they can send stack of 30 swords over land.