SGOTM 12 - Ivan

[I. Larkin]

Research parabola update. I really have to learn Math better. For some reason research rate much highe, then expected. (Note, I assume that Sci is 100% in saves). Next turn we wil have major jump whern FP in Thebes will appear.

 

[nerovats]

How will we get WH when we declare? I think Rome is to strong now. Legionaires are tough to beat. I would prefer an easier target, and there are plenty of those. Civs with lot of grass will give lot of scientist. Also it might be good to actively start helping 2 ai, by attacking their enemies and giving cities.

When do we want to finish ToE, gamble on getting all modern age techs, thus getting the expensive IA techs for free, or do we want to try and save it. France has high productive power. They finished Knights Templar witin 10 turns, so it's probably best to get Atomic theory and Electronics?

After Magnetism we should set science to metallury, the AI could research banking if we get lucy. France has Music Theory, we should get that to trade to scientific civs when hitting IA. Everyone clear on how to get the most out of that using big picture?

 

[I. Larkin]

If WH was at the time when you make peace with Romans it will appear again.
I am not going to land, but stay in preparation and sink their boats, if any.

 

[nerovats]

Yes science will jump in next couple turns. Metal was 7 now but Thebes got uni, will get FP and Const will get Newton soon so I expect to get it down to 6. The same happend with ToG it was 8 but went down to 7 halfway. Could have started prebuild 1 turn soner but well...

Former Maya will grow fast too. We got lots of workers over there. Can irrigate 3 turns per turn. Koyto is still on workers but could be changes as most cities are size 12 now. Koyto needs work to stay at size 12 when building workers, missed out on that several times during my turns.

I'm thinking maybe we should join our vet MI, muskets, and LB to get lib, court and uni asap in former Maya.

 

[nerovats]

Looked at turnlog France finished KT in 6 turns? Does AI change builds?, don't think it's making 50 shields, I was using civassist and it said France and Scandinavia got Chivalry in 350AD, FRance finished 410AD. Haven't looked at their 20K culture, they are the only one with more culture then us.

 

[I. Larkin]

Trouble is that nobody have money! So we can't keep 100% Sci.
We indeed, have to bring them to war. Wen they will have less units they will have more money.
AT, will you play on Sunday? Can I have tomorrow your thoughts about "all"?
"You only have second chanse to make the same mistakes twise".
(I saw it in movie "Old mill" that watched yesterday...)

 

[nerovats]

We could start some wars, especially if we're gone play defensive. AI will need more gold, although for now we should be ok, just sell lot's of techs cheap. If we finish more AI tech price will go down right?
Hittities and Dutch could be early targets if we get 2-3 more defenders in Thebes. 8 knights will be enough on Japan/Aztec island, probably 10-12 on Maya/India island.
Could give Shanghai away aftr starting some wars there, it does'n't give us much.

 

[I. Larkin]

We could start some wars, especially if we're gone play defensive. AI will need more gold, although for now we should be ok, just sell lot's of techs cheap. If we finish more AI tech price will go down right?
Hittities and Dutch could be early targets if we get 2-3 more defenders in Thebes. 8 knights will be enough on Japan/Aztec island, probably 10-12 on Maya/India island.
Could give Shanghai away aftr starting some wars there, it does'n't give us much.

Persias GA over, but we may try use them vs Duch and Hitties.
Monopoly techs will not be cheaper if we remove some civs.
Better to have S/H below size 6. My impression that >6 size support only 2 units.
About "big picture and free techs".
If we get banking befor Metalurgy, it is OK. But if we trade it while research ourselves "big picture" will not work. We have to work out this details somehow. If anybody have early save AA->MA (glenmets)? We could TRADE CoL but big picture would not appear.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

sure - I'll take a look tomorrow and play sunday.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

As far at KT - deity AI spend what... 60% of our shields? so KT goes from 300 to 180 shields. Paris could easily be making 36 shields.

 

[I. Larkin]

sure - I'll take a look tomorrow and play sunday.

Good. Things to go:
At preturn!
Declare to Rome. As I read previous nerovats turnlog we will have War Happiness again.
Set Lux to 0%. Move troops from Maya to India/Lisbon. It will be defensive war initially. Dormons
In India Sea will sink Romans. They may stay at Ocean after Magnetism. Make MA with Korea. It may help. We need good preparation for landing in Rome. Bombay may build Trebuchet (Canon) instead of Market.
Delhi will build Caravel (Galeons) after Market.
At preturn!
Trade with Scandinavia, they have money now.
After:
Look more for trade opportunities. We again became sort of short of cash.
Look at Otto, when previous deal expere, Russia, Babilons…

Workers:
Kyoto still have to be Worker Factory.
Stop workers that mine irrigation near Kyoto (now). Better to send them to Maya land.
Workers at Maya land must plant forest first and then make irrigation. Not just irrigate mine.
Water Chain will go to Copan and next to south. Disband AC or E* in Chiten and poprush harbor.
Then Lib, Corthouse, Uni with forest cut. Corruption in Chiten “only” 40%. Kind of good City.
Arrange ferry from Japan to Maya. (Caravel + Dormon, say).
Also, some Knights from Aztek/Japan may go there.
I'd better save forest in aztecks for Hospitals...

War at Persia continent (Dutch?). Better to start sooner or later. MA with Persia of course. But better to have more troops in Thebes, just in case.

Preparation to trade via Big picture at MA-IA transition:
1. It is good, if we trade Banking while research of Metallurgy.
2. If we miss it we have to research Banking ourselves. (it is only 4 turns).
3. Do not trade optional techs and Lux.
Leave Music Theory as French monopoly until IBT trade.
4. Anyhow, if you reach the point of MA-IA transition better stop to discuss…

Good luck!.

 

[nerovats]

I'm not sure about Romans. Better not declare this turn but move ships to where they are needed. If we can land somewhere on a mountain a musket will defend with 8, with some longbows we should be able to take 3-4 Romans for every musket. But when entering IA we will get rifles best to wait till then.

About forrest plant/cut we need a way to now wich tiles have already been used. In Maya it's ok to forrest he mines, then cut and irrigate, this makes it obvious, then AT should start forrect/cut with the tiles already irrigated.

I'd like at lest 3 defenders in Thebes before starting a war over there. Do we want to gift Shanghai now, or wait to see who is winning and gift it to them. There are 2 scientifc civs down there, either one of them should be ok.

@AT you right ofcourse, deity discount...

 

[I. Larkin]

1) I'm not sure about Romans. Better not declare this turn but move ships to where they are needed.
2) If we can land somewhere on a mountain a musket will defend with 8, with some longbows we should be able to take 3-4 Romans for every musket. But when entering IA we will get rifles best to wait till then.

3) About forrest plant/cut we need a way to now wich tiles have already been used. In Maya it's ok to forrest he mines, then cut and irrigate, this makes it obvious, then AT should start forrect/cut with the tiles already irrigated.

4) I'd like at lest 3 defenders in Thebes before starting a war over there.
5) Do we want to gift Shanghai now, or wait to see who is winning and gift it to them. There are 2 scientifc civs down there, either one of them should be ok.

1) well, I am sure. The sonner declare, the better. We only loose money for Lux now. We have enough troops to defend India.
Dyce again discontinue?
2) Good point, rifelmen rock. And again, the longer we stay in this war, the better for us.
3) Civ assist II give this information.
4) Knight +LB+ MI is enought, I think.
5) We may need fur for MA-IA trade. But we may send ship there for evacuation...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Thoughts on the save @460 AD

We are weak to:

Rome
France


Average to:

Netherlands
Korea
Hittittes
Celts
Spain
Russia
Zulu
Arabia
Greece
Germany
Sumeria
Iroquois

Strong to:

Persia
Babylon
Mongols
England
Ottomans
Scandinavia


Diplomacy:

Annoyed:

Hittites
Persia
Korea
Celts
Babylon
Spain
Zulu
Mongols
England
Rome
Germany


Polite
Russia
Dutch
Scandinavia
France
Greece
Sumeria
Ottomans

Cautiosu

Iroquois

Infrastructure:


Do we have plans for every city? For instance, we have granaries in a bunch of cities - do we want to keep those,
for when we get hospitals?

Neither our 2 japanese nor our 2 aztec cities have markets.


Specific cities:
Lisbon has barracks, a lib and a harbor - is making 2 commerce, 1 beaker. Do we want to add a courthouse to make it more productive, or just
make it a worker pump? if the latter, than we should dump the harbor, lib and barracks, cause those are just
costing us money. Same, to a lesser extent, with Oporto, which has a lib.

A courthouse in Oporto and Lisbon and Tiwanaku will turn those to 45%, 47% and 41% (once we have FP)

Science:

FP will help - jump us about 30 beakers. Newtons will do the same thing.


Targets:

Korean lands are near useless - Seoul has 3 grass, the rest are hills/tundra. Pyongyung is better, but still lots of tundra.
Spains land are much better - lots of grass and Barcelona has commerce bonuses, though it's probably completely corrupt anyway

Persia: Not strong, easy to get to, 3 cities near the FP - Persia is definitely a target.
Along with them, the Hittities and Dutch. We are strong or average to all of them.

Rome... hmm... I'll make a post about my thoughts on Rome below.

My beliefs:

Infrastructure. poprush courts in lisbon and oporto. Build markets in former japan/aztec land.
Move army over to assault Persia. Send the explorer around to explore the rest of that continent. Send a ship and an explorer out to find the
americans and see the rest of the world.

France and Greece are our best tech partners - we might want to help Greece expand, at some point give them chivalry and bring them in against arabia or china or carthage or something.
France I think is on an island.

Figure out where coal is likely to be. We are between 9 and 16 turns away from the IA. I assume our IA targets will be hospital, electricity, then MT.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Why do we want to take on Rome right now? Or is just to get WH? I am not sure why we think we will get it if we declare on them, but maybe I'm missing something. Romans have crappy land with no commerce bonuses and no fresh water, and Rome will almost certainly make Bombay more corrupt - certainly will make both Oporto and Lisbon more corrupt. And they are *strong* to us, so an assault will be both difficult and expensive. My guess is that Rome has between 30 and 50 legionarries and that's just a hard slog, especially as Veii is on a hill.

Better lands are Persia and east, because those are closer to the FP and just easier in general.

I can declare to Rome, but then we have to have a significant force in the area to deal with landings. And we are going to lose AC's in 10 turns or so, once we get mettalurgy.

 

[nerovats]

Ivan's conviced we'll get WH, he is usually right about stuff like that. He wants defencive war, so just to get happiness. Ifwe declare after we get dromons in position we can sink most oftheir ships before they land.

Teno has market the rest will need one too. We'll get hospilats soon, so maybe stop war and get those, start prebuilds for hospitals after that?

We could start trading more to get everyone happy. Giving gold then trading it back.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

ok - so, forces up to india to protect against landings, dromons to the sea area to bombard approaching roman forces. We aren't going to actually attack until rifles or infantry, or until someone gets cavs for us?

Do we want to try to take on Persia, etc? I'll play either tonight or tomorrow night, depending on input from the rest of the team.

 

[nerovats]

We don't have the forces to take on Persia now, we have lot of land to defend. Better to team up with Persia against Hittities, we could make them big and use for trading. That way Persia will do all the work, we just need 3-4 units in Thebes to be safe.

 

[I. Larkin]

Will write more, but remind again:
Do not trade Chivlry and other optinal Techs!
Do not Trade Lux!
We will need it for IBT trade.
Kyoto will still be Worker factory

 

[I. Larkin]

Do we have plans for every city? For instance, we have granaries in a bunch of cities - do we want to keep those,
for when we get hospitals?

Neither our 2 japanese nor our 2 aztec cities have markets.

“Approximate” plan is to get BPT as big as possible. We use very little forest cut for that.
BUT: we have to focus on land that will be most productive when improved. Now it is Maya land.
We have no time to build Markets: Kyoto still have to be Worker Factory, Aztecs will build knights. Bombay canons.

Specific cities:
Lisbon has barracks, a lib and a harbor - is making 2 commerce, 1 beaker. Do we want to add a courthouse to make it more productive, or just
make it a worker pump? if the latter, than we should dump the harbor, lib and barracks, cause those are just
costing us money. Same, to a lesser extent, with Oporto, which has a lib.

A courthouse in Oporto and Lisbon and Tiwanaku will turn those to 45%, 47% and 41% (once we have FP).

We will get something from Portugal later. With Police station they may be OK. Now they will pump workers.

Targets:

Korean lands are near useless - Seoul has 3 grass, the rest are hills/tundra. Pyongyung is better, but still lots of tundra.
Spains land are much better - lots of grass and Barcelona has commerce bonuses, though it's probably completely corrupt anyway.

Korea is Sci Civ. We will need it for IBT Trade. I wrote, that we may gift Spain to France.

Persia: Not strong, easy to get to, 3 cities near the FP - Persia is definitely a target.
Along with them, the Hittities and Dutch. We are strong or average to all of them.

Actually it may be an idea. After MA-IA IBT trade I may consider Persia as a target. Now I hope, that they will pay for us…

Rome... hmm... I'll make a post about my thoughts on Rome below:
Why do we want to take on Rome right now? Or is just to get WH? I am not sure why we think we will get it if we declare on them, but maybe I'm missing something. Romans have crappy land with no commerce bonuses and no fresh water, and Rome will almost certainly make Bombay more corrupt - certainly will make both Oporto and Lisbon more corrupt. And they are *strong* to us, so an assault will be both difficult and expensive. My guess is that Rome has between 30 and 50 legionarries and that's just a hard slog, especially as Veii is on a hill.

Well 10% lux is a lot! I do not understand why, but we again sort of short of cash… It will be a pity, if we have to keep Sci less then 100% for some reason… Also, Rome wil not help to anybody, but us. We have to take it sooner or later. Let they land to India and we continue Leader fishing…
MA with Korea and Persia may “protect” us from sneak attacks…

Better lands are Persia and east, because those are closer to the FP and just easier in general.

I will try to calculate, but normally rank corruption overwhelmed distance corruption.
But anyhow, for “long term plan preparation” we may make Persia to war vs Dutch and Hittes.
If they win ad will be strong to pay and research for us we will leave them alive…

I can declare to Rome, but then we have to have a significant force in the area to deal with landings. And we are going to lose AC's in 10 turns or so, once we get mettalurgy.

Good. Actually we will have Rifels in 10-14 turns, and then may try landing.

My beliefs:

Infrastructure. poprush courts in lisbon and oporto.

Later, please. And again not poprush, but Forest plant/Cut.

Build markets in former japan/aztec land.

No, But may be later…

Move army over to assault Persia.
Send the explorer around to explore the rest of that continent.

No, please.

Send a ship and an explorer out to find the
americans and see the rest of the world.

It is a good idea. After magnetism Caravel sail fast.
You see, their border south of France.
But if we make Persia at war we need some transport to bring troops to Thebes. “Small dilemma”.

France and Greece are our best tech partners - we might want to help Greece expand, at some point give them chivalry and bring them in against arabia or china or carthage or something.
France I think is on an island.

DO NOT GIVE CHIVALRY and LUX to SCI CIVS!Cartage pass away AIRC. France have Scandinavia and Americans and the same “Island”. BTW, are they still at war with Americans?

Figure out where coal is likely to be. We are between 9 and 16 turns away from the IA. I assume our IA targets will be hospital, electricity, then MT.

Near Constantinople, I think…

General things:
1) I put post 311 with some “Instructions”. Did you see it? For me it is easer to discuss things in the “dialog” regime, like I do here with your post.

2) Philosophy of this game (but I may be wrong),is to bring World total commerce as bigger as possible. AI stupid, but they may help, when have Deity discount…