SGOTM 12 - Ivan

[nerovats]

I think we'll need rails in cities that can grow huge (like Kyoto) and cities with very few corruption like Const and Thebes. But it's always a hard decision. Using cities for farms without hospital will also save teh time to build a market. Normally it better to use more smaller cities and this choice is a lot easier as now we can't build cities. Can look at save now. Could do tomorrow evening.

 

[I. Larkin]

I will play few more turns, but I want to create "building strategy" first.
I think some workers have to go to Rome area to help Corthouse/ Uni/ Hospital.
After Electricity RepParts, to work faster.

 

[I. Larkin]

Turnlog
0 "650 AD"*""
Change production: Bombay-> Market, Teo->Riflemen, Chichen -> University (forest cut because), Bombay -> Market. Stop some workers to bring them to Constantinople. Send Roman worker to Saltpeter. Draft 2 rifleman. Trade to Greeks, France, Babilons, Ottomans. Now 67 gpt+.
IBT ""*"Viking and Korea ask WM. Sorry…
1 "660 AD"*"" Disband Rifles in Teno and Delhi to Build Hospital next turn Send Workers to Teno and Constantinople. (It is important to have 12-13 transition with worker, not to loose food in Granary). Pop rush Courthouse in Tiwanaku (LB->Frigate->C/H). Declare to Persia and Unload on Mountings. Trade Lux to Greeks for 9gpt. (Plan to use Shanghai troops to war&#8230
IBT ""*" Nothing
2 "670 AD"*"" Capture Persepolis (Sun-Tzu) Fail to take Memphys with 3 Knights. Constantinople ->Frigate factory, this fast Ships will be use for Disband to help production. Unload ACs at road Jungle (3 LB ready to kill them.) Move Canons and Riflemen to Parsagrad. Upgrade regular horses.
IBT ""*""Massive Horse- slaughter near Memphis. Persia Caravel sail to Shanghai.
3 "680 AD"*"" Capture Memphis and move stack to Pasargade.
IBT ""*"France want more for Wool. Give Sanitation. Persia unloaded LB near Shanghai.
4 "690 AD"*"": Capture Passargade using read-lined knights. Lose some. Persia gone Draft in Shanghai and send 2 units to Thebes. Joined workers to Constantinople. Micromanage Thebes to have Hospital in 2 turns (2 Frigates and Galleon to disband). Make Constantinople size 20. Now question: is it sensible to joined more workers to other Cities? When stop WF in Kyoto? Spend lot of time thinking about best RR strategy and did not find good algorithm. As a practical solution I realize that better to RR mine in non corrupted Cities and irrigated in corrupted. [Deep conclusion isn’t it…]. Small Ciies will build workers first. About to join workers: If it may help to get Tech 1 turn sooner then OK, otherwise let them work. Electricity now in 4. Upgrade Dormon in Constantinople. Join worker to Osaka.
Draft in Lisbon. It is good 2 turns conscript Factory.
IBT ""*" Russia ask to leave. France finished Magellan. Dyes deal expired.
5 "700 AD"*""Move troops to Amsterdam. Disband ships in Thebes. Delhi builds new Galleon to transport workers to Rome. Renew Dyes deal, got some gpt. Draft in Lisbon.
IBT ""*"Nothing"
6 "710 AD"*"": Trades are getting worse. Only 20 gpt+. Move to Amsterdam. Babylon’s road Rotterdam got Iron. Now I have explanation why they could not take Amsterdam that long. Draft in Lisbon.
IBT ""*"Nothing"
7 "720 AD"*"" Easily capture Amsterdam. Send workers to Rome via ship-chain. Scout Hittites. They have lot of 3-man Chariots.
IBT ""*"Russia ask WM (no), Electricity->RP in 9, but want in 8.
8 "730 AD"*": Send Galleon to Shanghai to get Conscripts. Draft in Lisbon. Set troops to declare Hittites next turn. Pop-Rush Lib in Amsterdam.
IBT ""*"2 Ottoman spears come near Tiwanaku
9 "740 AD"*"" Declare to Hittites. Make embassy in Karakorum. They agree to help vs Hittites for free. Bombard forward 3-manCh, 2 elite win and got GL. Capture Hittites worker. MMnage Cities and stop to discuss. Thing depend on “long term strategy", and now I see the end of tunnel. I think we will not get any help from AI except may be IBT trade at IA-MA time. Or, may be we will get Communism. Our research rate will grow a little, but it is save bet that it will take 6-8 turns for one IA tech. It is 12 techs in IA to be done and with ToE it will take 70 turns approximately. Most of them are 5600 b costs, now we are around 700 bpt. I am start thinking, that for us better to kill many AIs icluding Ottos, Babylons, and probably Arabs and Iroquois. Not sure about Russia, Greeks, Spain. We need workers and now we have to use that good City as Kyoto and Memphys and “average” Tiwanaku for worker Factories.


Play few more turns, got Leader. I think 3 Knight Army is the best I can see. If no objection I will finish my turnset in 4-5 hours from now and put on server.
Another thing I notice, that CivAssist II gives not accurate information:
it is 0.5-1% difference but for 700 bpt it may be visible.
(see picture).
I also notice, that my corruption calculation 0.5-1% larger then CivAssist gives.
(and I think that my results are correct).
Probably it is some small round up/down things.

 

[I. Larkin]

Since nobody reply in five hours I continue with 3 Knights Army.
File on server, Nothing interesting happend. kill lot of 3-ManCh, without loses.
slow advance to Hitites. Will write more soon.
9 "740 AD"*" Continued: Make Army and Load 3 Knights. Kill 2 3MCh and move elite stack forward. I am uncertain a bit how many Rifles to protect Canons, and leave 2. Kill 3/4 3MCh with AC. Hit enter.
IBT ""*"WoW!" 9-10 3MCh come to Passagrade! 4 may reach town. Bombard with Canons forward, kill using Army and Knights. Make a trap for 6 backward 3MCh. Idea is not to let them run away after elite win. All Elite won and with 2-3 hp loses. Knight finish last. ->2/4.
10 "750 AD"*"": Bombard with Canons forward, kill using Army and Knights. Make a trap for 6 backward 3MCh. Idea is not to let them run away after elite win. All Elite won and with 2-3 hp loses. Knight finish last. >2/4.
Send Galleons to bring Shanghai troops faster. Draft in Sh and send 3 to Japan.
IBT ""*"More Hittites come.
11 "760 AD"*"": Kill 3MCh, spear and Sword. Bring troops to Rassagard to heal. Bring 4 Workers from Rome to Constantinople. When 5 RR will be done it will make Knight each turn. RP in 5. Disband Frigate in Rome to have Courthouse next turn.
IBT ""*"Otto muskets come to Tiwanuku. Germany wants cancel Coal deal. Offer WM for 9. Not a smart move… Mongol unload 4 units near Tarsus. Hittites kill 1.
12 "770 AD"*"" Advance to Tarsus. Prepare Ship Chain to bring 3 Workers from Rome to Constantinople in 1 next turn. Forget to MM Cuzco. RP in 4. Worker will work faster. We may Upgrade Canons and Rifleman, it may help finish Hittites. Also upgraded Conscripts will be 22 Shields. Count how many to disband, to make improvements faster (Chichen, Osaka, Kyoto). Kyoto have to stop WF soon, when enough Conscript to have Hospital in 4 turns. When Rome will finish Uni (Frigates disband), work on Sea, if possible.


Research Parabola:

I left red dots as early predictions, In fact we got Newton 11 turns earlier, then I thought and Sanitation13 turns earlier. Now we do 722 bpt. Most Techs in IA costs 5600 b, so to have 800 bpt will be nice.

 

[nerovats]

I'm thinking it's indeed best to just finish all civs. But would like to leave most scientific civs alive. That would still leave enough targets. Prioritize on amount of grass for quick growth. At least keep scientific civs with poor land or 1 city like Korea and Otto's.

Will probably play saturday, I spend to much timebehindpc last week preparing for exam so will not write here as well. Looks like we do ok. If we agree on long war I can make a logical path trough all civs, prioritizing op territory, reducing move turns and easy prey.

 

[I. Larkin]

I'm thinking it's indeed best to just finish all civs. But would like to leave most scientific civs alive. That would still leave enough targets. Prioritize on amount of grass for quick growth. At least keep scientific civs with poor land or 1 city like Korea and Otto's.

Will probably play saturday, I spend to much timebehindpc last week preparing for exam so will not write here as well. Looks like we do ok. If we agree on long war I can make a logical path trough all civs, prioritizing op territory, reducing move turns and easy prey.

Note, that only 70-75 turns left. We can't kill that many. Mongol next...But who after Mongols?
Babs pay us some money for Lux... May be Arabs? Or English? What next after RP? Industrialisation? It is 4800 b btw. Actually it is more important to improve land then capture 6-8 new Cities. But it is also nise.
In reality our Primary Goal is to have 800 bpt. We need 80 bpt more for that. In this case all IA Techs will be 1 turn shorter. One possibility is to strave some Cities to death. At this situation better to capture big Cities, no matter where they are. However, war may be risky because of WW, say and reputation damage.
Third Thought: I just realize, that our progress limited by techs, and this is step-like process. We research RP with 700+ bpt and it is 8 turns. Industrializtion is 4800 and to have in in 6 we need 800, no matter what. The same is SM, and corporation: to have it in 5 we need 800 bpt. So I thing we may do crude things, like starve Cities, Joined workers... My feeling, that it is more profitabel, than war.
Upgrade: Initially I planed massive Upgrade, but now I am not sure. Nobody guarantie that AI will pay us in a future that good. So some money in reserve will be nice.

 

[nerovats]

Had forgotten about reunion a wantedto go to today, so now will play tomorrow, unless I think we need to discus strat.
We are a bit behind someother teams in score, maybe we should take some risk to try and catch up?

 

[I. Larkin]

Had forgotten about reunion a wantedto go to today, so now will play tomorrow, unless I think we need to discus strat.
We are a bit behind someother teams in score, maybe we should take some risk to try and catch up?

I have no idea, what kind of risk you a thinking about. There plenty of "risky moves" that will lead to game loss, but I can' t see if anything may help us to finish it "much" sonner. I think Zoe team already finish at 1300 AD (last submition was 28 March) and we can't beat this date. Most probably klarius will finish soon (if not yet). I am sure, that he had a reason to have "score" lower than others. Not sure about Spooky and tao. Both teams had slow start but now, probaly, make their wars in 2-3 turns to have most "foringers" alive. Don't know if it pay back well. "Regular" also have showed good perfomance. I expected very close competition for 3-6 place. About "harsh" moves, we can disbands units (Coscripts and Frigates) to have Unis and hospitals soonner, we can also join workers to Cities with hospitals and assing Scientiests instead of labors on 0-1 coin tiles. Even if City will starve slightly. In Cities without Universities this pocedure is "a must". Note, that we have to have certain levels of bpt, not just "as much as possible.
Picture below shows benchmarks:

Pecture shows few benchmarks we have to reach in between 196 (RP) and 270 turns. Most important is 800 bpt, that let most of techs in 7 turns, and Sci Metod and Corporation in 5. I assume that Atomic and Electronics will come via ToE. This level will permit to research Refining and Combassion in 8, we better like to have level 914 bpt to research it in 7. To have other techs in 6 (steel, MT, MP and so on) we have to have 933 bpt. (Looks resonable...). Better to postpone flight to the time when we reach 1000 bpt. I belive, we can do it near the end. As I wrote before, war will help very little, but it may cost money for upgrade and have a risk of WW. Probably, Mongols is a last Civ we will remove. we may already satrt to think about UN prebuild. It may be Rome on Delhi.

 

[nerovats]

pre-turn
hit enter
IBT
Otto's move into our territory
780AD
Delhi granary->knight
Move in on Hittities
IBT
Renew silks deal with scandinavia for gems and ToG
790AD
Persepolis lib->court
Capture Tarsus no losses, has rax, market, harbor and duct, put it on lib
disband some ships
IBT
nothing
800AD
Rome uni->hospital
sell luxes to Babylon and Greece for total of 17 gpt
IBT
nothing
810AD
Thebes market->knight
Osaka market->explorer
820AD
Take Hattussas it's got rax, market, duct, harbor and Mausoleum ->court
Make little mistake irrigate to many tiles around Conast will get gelleon now in stead of frigate but Const now at 8fpt, probably better.
830AD
Copan hospital->market
get worker from russia for gems
840AD
Persepolis court->uni
Cuzco hopital->knight
Const get's pollution
Declare on Mongols
Capture Ta-Tu->lib
The AI just don't seem to be able to get cash, am only ocasionally able to get some gpt
850AD
Capture Karakorum
860AD
Not much
870AD
Pasargadae uni->explorer
Bombay hospital->knight

not sure where to go from here. Could land next to Trondheim, and capture big city. Economy is getting worse and worse, tried every turn to get some gpt, but just get get any. If we can get it we will make 800bpt next turn, maight need to join some workers for that. There are quite a few near Rome which will finish hospital next turn. Also a lot near Teno and Delhi/Bombay.
I put Delhi on Palace, it will take 50 turns, I estimate 48 turns to MA.

 

[I. Larkin]

I estimate 48 turns to MA.

How you get this figure? I had 62. Moreover, there is no guaranty that we get Fusion right at the MA transition...

Renew silks deal with scandinavia for gems and ToG

Now we can't atack Scandinavia...

AT, you said that you can play after 21. Will you?

 

[nerovats]

Yes can't attack scandinavia. Maybe better to not attack anymore like you suggested. Try to keep trading, maybe sell improvements in cities that don't need them, like rax's. We'll hit 800bpt with some joining, I don't see us get high enough to get another turn off soon. But more commerce will let us lowe science the last couple of turns to save some gold. On the other hand since we got the army we could just as well use. But could also use it to rush buildings.

 

[I. Larkin]

OK. Really want to hear AT.
I also "planing" to make research function vs Cities...
Looked at save, and it is OK. However, it looks that in remote
Cities better to build workers, than Lib/Corthouse and Kyoto needs Hospital.
Look at save again. I think it is wrong idea to RR Iron. It take a lot of workers but will not benefit much for our specifics. Rome will "overrun with Uni, but nothing we can do about it.
I deliberatly put many Galeons for fast exchange Conscript/workers to avoid overrun.
Edit nextday:Look at save at slow way. We may micromanage like in Rome and have Sci 60%.

It is a good excrsize to maximize Sci in a future.
2) For the future it looks that we do not need schields, and for Sci only food and gold is important. I am still in a process of calculation optimal things.
But Libs in Mongol Cities and Corthouse in Amsterdam are nonsense.
3)War. Have no reason to continue. May be I am wrong. If have some Arabs is a good target.
4) Russia have 7 gpt. What to trade Nationalism or Electricity?
5) ToE: it is time to do. Greeks know Electricity and may be will get SciMethod soon. If they give it to France that's it. We have to start ToE (or Factory prebuild) Now.
Anybody remember how ToE works? Is beacers lost? And Factory double production or just 1.5?

 

[I. Larkin]

Nobody reply since post submited. Will play today/tomorrow.
did some calculation for top 17 our Cities. Conclusion: Closest have to have Hospitals and all Irrigated. Corrupted just have to pump workers.

 

[nerovats]

ToE will empty beakers so time completion the turn we get a tech.

 

[I. Larkin]

ToE will empty beakers so time completion the turn we get a tech.

OK, I start prebuild at preturn, but may be miscalculate: (Or have to do Corporation in 4)... Or will make artificial delay1 turn of ToE...

 

[I. Larkin]

I'v played 4 turns and have "a problem". It looks that we face war with France. IBT they unloaded 2 Picks and 2 MI near Persepolis. The way how they did it indicate that they are keen to go to war. Our army weak vs French, but strong vs everybody else. Persia land is well defended, and initially I see no problem to ask "move or declare". However,
1)we get wool from France and I am not sure, that WH is better then Wool.
2) do we want MPP or MA vs France?
3) do we want to try to Conquere France?
4) are there any way to avoid war? For example bring army to Persipolis: AI should not attack Army...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

hey guys I will definitely be able to play over the weekend Thanks for your patience... if you want to wait, ivan, I can look things over tomorrow night and give some feedback.

I suspect we will need to be at war with france at some point, since they are probably our rival.

 

[nerovats]

AI will attack an army when it think it's got a better then 10% chance, but that does not count in a city. Sounds like there's not much we can do to prevent war. Probably best thing to do if we can defend is demand they leave. Migt get lucky otherwise we at least will have first chance of making allies, like Scandinavia, or anything inbetween. That way we should face few units, get WH and probably get some friends too by making alliances. Still peace looks better, but if they want war let's give it to them and team up with the strong civs, especially the ones that don't need ships to reach us, like Spain and Babylon.

 

[I. Larkin]

0 "870 AD"*" Production changed: Kyoto-> Hospital, Memphis->Lib,
all remote corrupted or semi-corrupted Cities – workers. Reduce Science to 60% and micmng to have Industrialization next turn. Set Constantinople to BFM as ToE pre-build. Trade Electricity to Russia for 7gpt+13. Trade TM and WM. Sent Dormons to India’s Sea. We may finish game at 44-46 turns.
IBT ""*"Industrialization -> Sci. Method.
1 "880 AD"*"" Sci. method in 5 but set 100%. Renew wool+1gpt deal with France for Industrialization. Set Factories at Delhi, Cuzco and Thebes. Joined some workers to Delhi and Ko. Send some troops to Japan and Workers to Persia.
IBT ""*"Ottomans move north."
2 "890 AD"*"" Understand what Ottos want. They try to occupied chock point IBT India and Mesoamerica. We may ignore it until they come closer.
IBT ""*"Nothing interesting"
3 "900 AD"*"" Nobody have money! WM and TM give about 10-15 gold.
Sell barracs in Persia continent and in Rome.
Draft in Shanghai and send these troops to Egypt.
IBT ""*"Nothing interesting"
4 "910 AD"*"": Continue work.
IBT ""*"France unloaded LB, 2 MI and Pickman at mountings near Persepolis.
5 "920 AD"*". Sure, I do not this war. Make Mpp with Korea (they pay 2 gpt) and with Babylons (pay them 19 gpt). Got this money back for Electricity (25 gpt). It is important to make separate deal. Bring Canons, Army and upgrade Rifle at Persepolis. Got Military Tradition from Korea. (Babs have it also).
IBT ""*" It does not help. France declared and redlined Army in Persipolis. Korea and Babs declare to France. France unloads 2 Knights, MI and Crusader near Veli. No way to hold.
6 "930 AD"*" Sell Harbor in Veli and gift to Ottomams. Make MPP with Ottomans (Electrisity). Trade Coal (2gpt). Fortified conscript Rifle on mountings to cover worker. Kill Pick near Persipolis. Send troops to Mongolia.
BTM->ToE. No way to get Corporatin in 4. Slow down ToE.
IBT ""*" French Knight attacks Rifle and dies. Otto Declare to France. French capture Veli.
7 "940 AD"*"" Unload Knights in Rome and capture Veli back. (Reg knight dies. AC kills Crusader.
IBT ""*"France unload 3 Horses + Archer in Mongolia.
8 "950 AD"*"" Kill French “SoD”. Send explorer to observe channel near Scandinavia. Bring workers from Shanghai to Egypt.
IBT ""*"Babylon’s Galleon sails to France via channel. Otto’s Caravel and 2 galleys sail to France near Erdine."
9 "960 AD"*""
IBT ""*"Nothing interesting"
10 "970 AD"*""
IBT ""*"France want Peace and agree to pay 23 gpt! Also have 54 gpt. Well, probably MPP idea was not that good… Got Corporation, Atomics, and Electronics.
11 "980 AD"*" We reach 933 bpt benchmark and may have Steel at 6 or Refining/ Combustion at 7. Next benchmark is 1070 bpt, probably in 13 turns we get it. Silk deal expires, and I renew it with America. Scandinavia may pay gpt. Embassy in Scandinavia 56 gold, but I am not sure that we want MA/RoP vs France.

 

[I. Larkin]

hey guys I will definitely be able to play over the weekend Thanks for your patience... if you want to wait, ivan, I can look things over tomorrow night and give some feedback.

I suspect we will need to be at war with france at some point, since they are probably our rival.

Good. In a few moments I'll upload file to server. I think better to finish this war after MPPs expire. Look at Constantinople, I put Governor to work on pollution ASAP. Count what we need on forest Ivory. Points under thread: Tenotchilia, Shanghai. It is important to agg 1 worker to Passargard, draft in Shanghai next turn. explorer to Fortress above Chichen. use Ship Chain to bring workers from Japan to Persia.