SGOTM 12 - klarius

[klarius]

Welcome, Mighty Dwaarf

OK let's put up a tentative roster:

klarius just played
TedBentley up and got it
Wotan on deck (expect to play till writing is researched)
Mighty Dwarf (should be a pretty boring, easy set )
Ronald

Northern Pike currently unavailable.

@MD: Did you install the resource graphics mod?
Another point. In this game it will be very important to monitor trade opportunities. With this many civs that's nearly impossible with the game interface. So either CivAssist2 or CrpMapStat should be used (I use both).

 

[TimBentley]

Constantinople needs 8 happy faces in addition to luxes and 20% lux gets 6, so 2 MPs or 1 MP and temple would be good I guess. An extra MP will eventually cost 3gpt, but perhaps we can get a market and another lux by then. Of course we have plenty of shields so maybe a temple would be fine.

Looking at the worker actions it seems Constantinople grows faster than the workers can keep up (such that neither jungle is cleared by the time it reaches size 12 or we've got too many workers left over) but it should be fine. I haven't decided how many workers to build yet but the first turns should be pretty simple so I'll start those.

 

[TimBentley]

2950(0): zzz

IBT: Constantinople wo2->worker
See Spanish curragh: they're down masonry, the wheel; have 3g

2900(1): worker roads, wo2 joins him

IBT: Constantinople worker->worker

2850(2): wo2 roads, worker to incense
science to 70%

IBT: Constantinople wo3->worker

2800(3): India, Aztecs, Inca learn IW; India, Inca learn HBR; no trades available yet
worker builds colony, science to 80%
meet Korea: they're down masonry, the wheel
sell them masonry for 34g
worker, wo2 to forest
wo1 to ivory, wo2 to other ivory

IBT: Constantinople wo4->worker

2750(4): wo4 to hill, others road
I think Osaka and Teotihuacan both have temples

IBT: Constantinople wo5->worker

2710(5): Meet Sumeria, they're even technologically, have 1g
wo4 roads
wo5 to incense

IBT: Constantinople wo6->curragh

2670(6): Ottomans, Inca know mysticism
buy IW from Japan for masonry, 94g, 1gpt
buy mysticism from Ottomans for IW
sell mysticism to Japan for 94g
India wants more than mysticism, 101g for HBR
we have iron on the hill in our borders
wo5 to wine, wo6 to hill

IBT: Inca start Oracle

2630(7): build wine colony
wo6 roads
4 workers irrigate ivory
meet Germany, they lack alphabet, IW, mysticism
sell them alphabet for 39g

IBT: Constantinople curragh->warrior
Japan starts Oracle

2590(8): 4 workers irrigate ivory

IBT: Constantinople warrior->temple (I might have gone for another warrior except that now iron is hooked up; could go for an archer instead)
Sumeria, India start Oracle

2550(9): I'll stop here to even up the turns
I'll leave the workers unmoved so the next player can decide what to do

Notes: My suggestion would be to have 3 workers road the forest so that when they finish, Constantinople grows to size 9 and they can merge in, although that leaves a lot of work for the other 3 workers
Here is the save.

 

[klarius]

Trades look fine. But I would have rather have the road on the ivory forest by now instead of the IMO unnecessary irrigations.
We have now gone through the effort to fill the granary at size 7, so we should use it to grow a pop. But after that the city should use all ivory tiles (roaded) from now through the end of the game. So no +10 food anymore. We still can have +7 or more, so will grow another 1-2 pop points until we get around to mine a lot.

I'm thinking of building a barracks in 3 now (12+14+14 sh). Then 2 swords in 2 each. Probably no worker merges until then. I think we should then have the tiles to pull 20sh, so temple in 3 could come then. Though another curragh would also be not bad. We would really like to know everybody by MA.

BTW everybody can have minor techs for 10+ coins. And I even would gift IW to Germany. We will have to gift them into MA anyways, so no need that they waste their effort on that research.

 

[Wotan]

OK will have a look at the save tonight and post any thoughts. Probably play it tomorrow night to allow for discussion unless you think it is a no brainer and just straight forward to go for the current situation?

 

[Wotan]

OK, double post just to be sure you get a notification about it.

have looked at the save and have no objections to klarius ideas, on the contrary. But I would like us to stay at 12 units so as not to take any gold from research. At the same time we want to go to size 12 without using any excessive lux. I will plan the builds to generate the following in the shortest possible time:
Barracks
Temple
2 Swordsmen
Curragh(s) if possible to keep number of units at max 12.
Order will depend on how shields are generated and such.

Use Workers to maximize gold and shields. We will take one maybe two growths by natural causes. Rest of growth 3-4 through merged Workers. That should leave us with 2-3 Workers. Pushing us to 20 spt is another goal and worker actions will be directed at obtaining this. Final goal for Workers are to start clearing Jungles. We do want them gone also for disease risk elimination I guess.

Trading, will seek any oportunities to enter into trades.

Continue exploring with Curraghs.

Will play tomorrow evening.

 

[klarius]

Some notes on MM.
In contrast to usual play we should consider to use scientists in the capital, to keep the lux rate down. We will soon hit the point where maximizing shields doesn't buy us anything, then look for MM with either coast or scientists, instead of 1 commerce tiles.
And even building wealth should be considered once we reach our unit limit.
Consider to use curraghs on suicidal paths, instead of letting them crawl through coast. It's only 25% sinking risk for seafaring.

 

[Wotan]

Have played, had a cancelled meeting this morning and saw a plan unfold to let us obtain our objectives for this turn set without to much problems.

Turn log

0 – 2550BC Preflight
Change to Barracks in C. Mine iron, mine BG and send Worker to road forest.
Gift IW to Germany

1 – 2510BC
Nothing special

2 – 2470BC
Yet another eventless turn.

IBT: Paris finish Pyramids.

3 – 2430BC

C Barracks -> Swordsman

IBT: Beijing finish Oracle.

4 – 2390BC
Nada

5 – 2350BC

C Swordsman -> Swordsman


6 – 2310BC
Tile improvements now allow for 20spt so next turn I start on a Temple. Current food surplus at 20spt is +6 so would allow 3 scientists and we need to work 10 tiles for 20spt so we have a food surplus above what we need for production. We are planning on using Scientists and maybe also run Wealth for a few turns so having food is probably in our interest until we go on a war footing after MM. So join the first Worker to C.

7 – 2270BC
Writing researched, start on Philosophy.

C Swordsman -> Temple

Join a second worker to have two Scientists in C. We will have Philo in 10 now; the extra Scientist lowered it from 13 turns. C now at Size 12!

Meet the Zulu and sell them CB for 25 gold. Sold Mysticism to Rome and Korea for 33 and 18 gold.

8 – 2230BC
Nada


9 – 2190BC
Eventless as well.

10 – 2150BC

C Temple -> Swordsman

After action report.

I have left the 4 remaining Workers for the next player to use. Either improves the tile they are in or just move them to the last remaining Jungle and cut it in 6 turns. We have no real need for the tile so would suggest just moving them to get the final jungle tile cleared. Not sure it is a bad idea to have the irrigated tiles. We can easily generate 20spt and at the same time run a strong research with 4 Science specialists due to the surplus food.

I would suggest building 2 more Swordsmen now (4 turns) and then start on a couple of Galleys for sealift capability. Followed by a string of Swordsmen to help us conquer Aztecs. C. generate 16spt now, next turn move the citizen working the iron to the mined BG (14spt) to finish the Swordsman in two. We could do this by working the Cow now and not one of the forests but that would add another turn on research so that is not an option. Better run a food deficit for a few turns. So run C at 16+14+16+14spt for two Swordsmen. After the first Swordsman we only need to generate 32 beakers so can go to 3 Scientists and set the added citizen to work the lake for a minimal food deficiency on the 16spt turn and a food balance on the 14spt turn. Then the same for a couple Galleys but now we have finished research on Philo and can make sure we are not running C on a food deficit while maintaining 4 Scientists and still produce 16+14spt cycles.

This game is not so much about MMing for Settlers as it is MMing for Science…

Or set C. to build another Curragh now, we are at 10 units so room for a couple more. We would like to know what is to our south I guess and sending one SW could be a plan. The Curragh in the NE made an unsuccessful detour to a small uninhabited island but is now on his way to the SE.

Scientists. I have set C. to shrink for a turn to allow for a fourth Scientist while still getting the Swordsman in two turns. If we do not want either the Curragh or Swordsmen move the Citizen working the iron to the empty Cow to balance food.

Trading. Not much activity. We can sell Mysticism to Spain for 14 gold if we want to. HBR is available from several AI. I had an opportunity to trade Myst plus about 60 gold for it earlier but figured we will soon be able to get it when trading Writing for it and hopefully several other techs

Philosophy in 5 turns. 162 beakers remaining and average of 32.4 over 5 turns and we are generating 33 with 4 Scientists.

Soon we will be able to attack!!!

Next turnset.

Cut the last remaining jungle.

Finish Philo, take MM as our free tech. Next tech? Probably Lit for trading since AI rarely go for it hoping some AI get us Maths before going for Currency/Construction. Or CoL? Some AI must be working on Poly as well as on Math so I see no reason to pursue either.

If Aztecs are still our primary target we should get them fighting the Japanese now. Or at least very soon. Building an Embassy in Japan, DoW Aztecs and have Japan join us using Writing? Trade Writing for whatever else we can get including HBR. Writhing should pop up soon enough anyway through one or more AI’s so better use it before that happens.

Builds; first two Swordsmen, then 2 Galleys, then Swordsmen until we have conquered Aztecs.

 

[klarius]

Well, I don't think taking map making with philo is the best course.
I want the world tech pace high and wasting our slingshot (if we make it at all) on a tech the AI loves to research is not what one should do for that, if anything better should get available.
I still hope we might be able to trade for math before, in which case I would prefer to take currency for free and also build SoZ first.
In any case we should start a war between Japan and Aztecs now. They need some turns to waste their troops or a landing will just be taken out by loads of archers, warriors and horses. I'm not sure if writing will do the trick, we don't know, if they are near to research it. Anyway I prefer to pay for the alliance with gpt and get part (you never get all) of it back, by selling tech. That's another small trick to heat the tech rate, I generally use to good success. It also gives you a net profit, if they decide to make peace prematurely, what they frequently do. Nevertheless the embassy with Japan should be done now. I have to look into the save first (now at work ) to see if there is something more to comment.
We still know less than half the AI and a third of the map. We should do any effort to change this. Some more curraghs and speeding up the exploration by suicide runs is the measure for this. Curraghs will be disbanded anyway later, so risking them now is better IMO, than letting them slowly map out coast line.

 

[Wotan]

I don't really see any alternative to MM as the free tech. Not any that would really be to our benefit. Math and Poly are without any doubt under research by some AI's so they are out. The most attractive one from a trade perspective is Lit that the AI seldom research early but it is so inexpensive we should rather research it ourselves. that leaves CoL as the only worthwhile alternative to MM. And I guess I would prefer MM, at least if we can start a war between Japan and Aztecs now. Only AI's with writing (none we know of) can have started MM so there is no risk of us getting in the way of an AI researching it. Besides if we elect to spread it quickly we avoid AIs going after it themselves and instead reseach something we need. getting MM to others will probably help us too since it will help the AI in wars on this map.

I agre with the trade for war alliance you propose. Get them into the war for gpt and then sell tech for gpt.

 

[klarius]

The precondition was really to be able to trade for math. We haven't met France (and their neighbors) yet, but maybe do so in the turns until philo is researched. In C3C AIs frequently go for math before writing, if they have masonry and alphabet at this time.
So if we can trade for math in time, we should do so, even if it means we get deeply in debt. This means to check every turn and also on the big picture screen when philo is researched.

BTW, Mighty Dwaarf, do you know what I'm talking about and are you out there ?

 

[Wotan]

OK, so i guess we are in agreement then. If we can get math I am definitely OK with taking Construction instead of MM.

 

[klarius]

Ok, looked at the save - a few observations.
We can run 100% science with 4 scientists - we don't need lux tax. It doesn't help with turns, but will get us a few coins in the end.
If we mine the plains cow, we can have 15sh -1food @ 4 scientists, which we can sustain for quite some time.

Writing might not be enough to get the money back for Japan on Aztecs (they might research it, or know people who know it and deity AI are expensive to bribe). Maybe wait for philosophy and free tech to make the move. We could then just trade writing now, for HBR and every coin we can get. Then gift stuff around. The AI is to slow in research for my taste (well, it's only deity - they need a little help ).

We are really back with exploration IMO - I'm still for more curraghs and suicide runs, to exploit differential naval movement. But still it looks like we will not meet anybody new before philosophy .

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Im here have been following.

Plan as far as I understand,

build two swords (4 turns), whilst continuing exploring, trading for techs esp Maths, chopping jungle, embassy in Japan, finish research on Philosophy.

1) Are we decided on whether to wait till after Philo to negotiate War Alliance or still ok to go before??

If we have Maths take Curr or Constr as free tech, if not MM. Then research Lit for trade purpose???

2) Build couple of Galleys if pos then swords and start SOZ as soon as available?,
if not I assume this would mean we have Math and therfore SOZ or do you think more Curraghs first??

Look to micromanage to maximize science.

I will try to take a look at the save tomorrow morning, but due to being Valentines day Weds, I wont be able to play turns till Thurs evening. If this is too slow someone can jump in and take it.

 

[klarius]

Well, I would rather build curraghs than swords and explore more aggressively (with suicide curraghs, some of them lost on ocean).
1) I would build the embassy with Japan now (general advice for SG - make screenshot of capital and post in your report, whenever you make an embassy). I'm doubtful, if we can afford the alliance then, so would rather wait for philosophy.
Literature after free tech for sure, but the reason is not trade. We need a library to drive research, that's not a typical deity game, the AI is to slow.
About end of philosophy research:
You didn't say, yes I understand everything, so a small lecture (maybe unnecessary):
We will research philosophy and get to the pop-up for a new tech.
Select: Show me the big picture (that's the famous big picture screen, often abbreviated as TBP)
From there you can select the diplomacy screen and talk to all AIs.
You can trade already use philosophy to acquire new techs, before you have to select a new tech you can get for free. So one can trade for math, if it is available even that late. Probably there is nothing to gain here in this game, but expect the question "did you go to TBP" in every SGOTM and a big rant, if you have to admit you didn't.
And BTW , if math is available, I would set my money on currency (I want to drive world wide research as fast as possible and currency typically gets researched later), Wotan wants the most expensive tech construction. That's just a gut call, both are pretty good.

Another possibility is that polytheism is available before we get philosophy. Now that's a tricky one. I personally would go for it (will be very expensive) and take monarchy for free. It is an absolute useless tech, but by far the most expensive we could get at that point and distributing it would prevent all of the artificial stupidity to research it. But that is really the klarius method, going for the long term goals and ignoring short term. That's not necessarily the best (eh did I say this).

Still another point under your 1 : chopping jungle is not important currently. One more mining on an irrigated tile would be more important. By that we can work the plains cow instead of the iron hill and still gain 15sh. That's better in the sum of shields and food.

2) We are not building galleys, but dromons and that's a bit of a problem . This is our unique unit, so we get our golden age, if they win a battle. I would rather not build them now ( and for sure we anyway would build a harbor first, which costs just as much as 1 dromon), but wait until we have something to transport (more than 2 swords). They should for sure not go out to explore. There is a big danger that we get involved in a war and one of the many curraghs attacks it and we get a golden age. We should have our GA later, when all the AI fall behind us in tech.

A few more general things (not anybody in the team might concur, but I claim in my typical humble manner , to be the top specialist on high research games in the team).
If anybody demands something, reject. We have to fear nothing and would love them to send a few troops so we can promote our units. Also every declaration is worth 3 happy points (one for every 4 pop) for us in war happiness. It might not be needed right now, but gives other MM options.
Trade for HBR, then give gifts all around, our techs are pretty dead already and we soon will have new ones. The limit on diplomacy is tech and that doesn't mean early techs. The difference between good and and not so good games is typically what techs you can get from the AI in MA and IA. So AA techs should be distributed freely, as long as you still can get all the money around.

Ok, I think I obfuscated everything enough for today, feel free to ask questions (it cannot be that everything I said is clear as Everclear).

 

[Ronald]

I agree that exploration is the highest priority. We hopefully find most of the remaining civs before the Philo trading round.
Personally I would take currency over construction, just because most AI (i Think the French go for it though) ignore currency longer and go for contruction right away.
If monarchy would be available, we should go for it because of the reasons klarius mentioned.

 

[klarius]

Well, another point.
Mighty Dwaarf, you cannot have any first hand experience with differential naval movement.
You might have understood it theoretically (or not), but in fact it takes some time to really grab it.
Theory:
Naval units get double movement points. Coastal tiles use 3, sea tiles 2 and ocean tiles 1 movement point.
C3C complication:
For seafaring units, it's still only one movement point more e.g curragh goes from 4 to 5.
Consequences:
Our curraghs can in some case move 3 tiles safely. From coast to sea-sea back to coast. But that's frequently not possible because the map just isn't allowing it.
So that's a disadvantage to seafaring relative to the standard game.
But we still can do suiciadal paths like sea-ocean-ocean-ocean allowing a curragh to move 4. And only a 25% chance to sink at the end.

We have in the moment curraghs stuck in coastal tiles, which will take a long time to discover anything new. That's where I think it's better to boldly let them go out to sea or ocean to find new civs. And let some of them sink .

@Ronald, there is nearly no chance that we find anybody new before philo. The curraghs are not in a position to do that in the 5 turns it takes.

 

[Ronald]

@ klarius: after checking the save some more carefully I also saw that we probably don't find anybody new.

some more remarks how to use TBP (just in case if this is not known): when in TBP only use the advisors, don't go into our city screen, as soon as you leave the city screen you are out of TBP. Before trading in TBP set science to 0 to maximize the available gpt.

If mathematics is not available for trading, we should start the mausoleum as prebuild for the statue of Zeus

@ everybody:Another idea: If nothing interesting is available (maths or poly) the turn before getting to philo, I rather would delay philo one or two turns instead of taking MM. What is your opinion about that?

 

[klarius]

I don't think we should delay philosophy. That the civs we know are rather slow (for deity) in research doesn't mean that all are like this.

 

[TimBentley]

The curragh by Zulu/Germany might meet somebody in a suicide run. It looks like the AI wouldn't research monarchy until the middle ages (possibly invention and theology first). If we get MM at least we can give that away so hopefully they research CoL for us eventually or something like that. Currency would be my choice if possible. By the way I'll be out from tomorrow to Sunday.