SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Jan 9, 2003

    BtS SGOTM 12 - Atonement

    Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 12 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

    The heavens split open, heat poured over the innocents, earth spew lava in anguish, light shone over the earth for a short moment. Then darkness, despair, suffering, torment. And death. If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into the sky, that would be like the splendor of the mighty one. Stalin had now become Death, the destroyer of worlds. And the people of Russia turned against him in disgust. Civil war broke out and the once glorious civilization shattered as a second wave of nuclear fire rained upon the land. Mankind is thrown back to the stone age, with only small bands of isolated stragglers wandering the plains in search of city sites free from pollution. The vast knowledge collected over the centuries is all but lost, with only fragments left for use. As the last piece of modern communication equipment fails, shocking news reveals that the former enemy civilizations were not wiped out as believed. The survivors managed to reach pockets of relative low radiation to re-found their capitals. And guess what? They have not forgotten. Furthermore, rumors are that Stalin survived as well, and who knows what technology he has access to?...

    The good news is that you have managed to retain the knowledge of Ecology. The bad news is that the opponents have most certainly retained advanced knowledge as well, perhaps even nuclear technology.

    You are Catherine, the leader of the new Russian civilization. You have to start all over again. The earth is covered in pollution, and all other civilizations are at war with you. You must make Atonement by clearing up ALL fallout, getting rid of Stalin, making peace with ALL other civilizations, and evacuating the earth.

    Thanks for this scenario go to Erkon.

    In order to avoid clashing with the release of Civ5, the game will start on September 17.

    The completion deadline will be December 20.

    Game Settings

    The Start:

    Click for a bigger image.

    • Speed: Normal
    • Difficulty: Emperor - but be warned. It may play a little higher that this :rolleyes:
    • Map: Standard, cylindrical, cold, low water
    • Opponents: The six civilizations from SGOTM10 (Churchill, De Gaulle, Mao Zedong, Roosevelt, Gandhi, Stalin)
    • Victory condition: Only space victory
    • Game Options: no random events, no barbarians, no city flipping from culture, no vassal states, no goody huts. Aggressive AI and rising seas are enabled.
    Starting Conditions
    Almost all of earth is covered by fallout. You are in contact with all opponents, you are at war with them, and they are upset that you have nuked them. The map is not the same as in SGOTM10. You are land connected to at least one of the AIs. The AI capitals are pre-settled. All biological units have died from exposure to radiation, except your settler. The fallout will not disappear by itself, and it is not possible to settle on fallout (due to a modified BUFFY)

    To win the game:
    • All fallout must be cleared
    • Stalin must be defeated (dead)
    • All other AIs must survive and be at peace with the player when space victory is achieved.
    • Teams will not be penalized for events outside the team's control, such as:
      • one AI killing the other before the team has the opportunity to prevent it
      • one AI declares war on team after the launch
      • one AI launch a nuke after the launch ....etc.
      • any fallout that may appear on unreachable terrain does NOT need to be cleaned up.
    The teams are trusted to fulfill the objectives to the best of their ability, and any AI related events that prevent the fulfillment of the criteria for winning shall be described and forwarded in a PM to Erkon or me for analysis.

    Laurels will be awarded to up to three teams who accomplish the winning goals fastest (Ie by the earliest in-game dates).
    Wooden spoons will go to the team who finishes the game (win or lose) with the lowest score.

    • Versions
      This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.19, using a customized HoF Mod 'BUFFY_SG12'. The installer for this special mod is available here. Unzip the downloaded file and run it to install BUFFY_SG12 into your ...\Beyond the Sword\Mods\ folder.

      If a later BtS patch is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in BtS version 3.19 before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.

      Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows software on their system.
    • Rules and Procedures
      Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

      All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.
    Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

    Good luck .... You might need it :D
  2. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

    Feb 5, 2009

    TS 01 : 4000 BC - 3520 BC (Turn 12) Animal Husbandry Played by Mitchum

    Links: Pre-Play Plan ; Turnset Report

    After extensive testing, which focussed on GLH, various Oracle slings, and expansion to 6-ish cities, we decided to settle in place for greatest flexibility. We figured that Erkon would give us some useful land/resources to go with the fish in a NW coastal city. NNE on the coast was another popular option, for fastest GLH, most food and allowing a second city on the peninsula, but it was ultimately too slow to get going. We also decided to skip Agri, despite the 20% discount, as AH-Wheel-Writing seemed to keep the most options open for later. We played an initial set through AH (T12), while building a worker. We paused for more testing as the horse discovery changed the initial worker actions, and for some Demographic analysis.

    Stats: 1 City, 1 Pop, 0 Workers
    Tech: Animal Husbandry 3520 BC

    Spoiler :

    TS 02 : 3520 BC - 2920 BC (Turn 27) Writing Played by Mitchum

    Links: Pre-Play Plan ; Turnset Report ; Summary of our early goals by LowtherCastle

    The goals for our testing here were getting:
    - The capital to grow quickly, so it can work more resources.
    - The second city (fish, ivories, cow) down and growing asap.
    - All the resources improved, and health resources hooked up.
    - Library up.
    - Setting up for a reasonable shot at both Oracle (COL/MC/Currency) and GLH.
    - Two warriors out exploring. Testing and calculations showed that we can get peace with Gandhi cheaply if we can get a warrior within two tiles of his capital.

    The capital built a worker, followed immediately by another worker. The first worker improved horses to speed up construction of the second, and then started clearing fallout from the eastern cow. Our tech path is: AH - Writing - Wheel. We played out to the turn we got Writing and our second worker, and paused for final tweaking of MM and more AI analysis.

    Stats: 1 City, 1 Pop, 2 Workers
    Tech: Writing 2920 BC

    Spoiler :

    TS 03 : 2920 BC - 2400 BC (Turn 40) The Wheel & Fishing Played by bbp

    Links: Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2 ; Turnset Report, Part 3

    We were planning to build warrior-warrior-library, while growing the capital to size 4, and researching Wheel-Fishing. We spotted DG's borders in the fog. He founded Buddhism in our game (with Churchill founding Hinduism). Workers finished the second cow pasture, roaded to it for health and cleared the fallout from the NNE gold. We completed The Wheel and Fishing. The capital is 3t away from completing the library now, to be followed by our first settler. We stopped here to discuss our Oracle plans, as there were a number of options flying around.

    Stats: 1 City, 3 Pop, 2 Workers

    Tech: The Wheel 2640 BC; Fishing 2400 BC

    Spoiler :

    TS 04 : 2400 BC - 2080 BC (Turn 48) Mysticism Played by bcool
    Links: Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2

    First settler built (ETA @ fish/ivory T50), Mysticism done, Meditation 1t away. Found land connection to De Gaulle.

    Stats: 1 City, 4 Pop, 2 Workers

    Tech: Mysticism 2160 BC

    Spoiler :

    TS 05 : 2080 BC - 1720 BC (Turn 57) Meditation & Priesthood Played by LowtherCastle

    Links: Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2 ; Turnset Report, Part 3 ; Turnset Report, Part 4

    Completed a third worker and founded the fish city. We also figured out that no AI has Priesthood at this point, but that a number of them have both Sailing and Masonry. This has led us to forego our initial plans for Oracle Currency + GLH, in favour of an attempt at a CS sling without GLH. We'll have to keep a very close watch on AI tech and possibly abort to Oracle Currency if the Oracle race is in danger.

    Stats: 2 Cities, 5 Pop, 3 Workers, 29bpt @ 90%, 7t to Mathematics

    Tech: Meditation 2040 BC ; Priesthood 1920 BC

    Spoiler :

    TS 06 : 1720 BC - 1000 BC (Turn 75) Math, COL & CS Played by mdy

    Links: Pre-Play Plan ; Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2 ; Turnset Report, Part 3

    We successfully completed the CS sling :thumbsup:, while building another settler and worker. Galley City was settled 2SW1S of Fish. Fish got a library and grew to pop 4, so it can work towards our academy GS.

    Stats: 3 Cities, 9 Pop, 4 Workers

    Tech: Mathematics 1400 BC ; Code of Laws 1000 BC ; Civil Service 1000 BC - Oracle

    Spoiler :

    TS 07 : 1000 BC - 1000 BC (Turn 75) Peace with Gandhi Played by LowtherCastle
    Links: Report :D

    Stats: 2 Cities, 8 Pop, 4 Workers

    Spoiler :

    TS 08 : 1000 BC - 625 BC (Turn 90) Currency, Tech trading, Peace treaties Played by bbp

    Links: T75-77 PPP ; Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2 ; Turnset Report, Part 3

    We gave Gandhi COL+Math to get him to Cautious. Next turn we traded CS for Agri/Pottery/BW/Sailing/Alphabet, and got peace with DG, by moving a warrior two tiles from his second city and giving him Priesthood. Fish grew to size 4 and started running two scientists towards an academy GS. Moscow built two more workers and started on a settler for marble in the NW. Workers in the north are scrubbing that site, while workers in the south prepare the pig/fish in the south and road towards gems. Got peace with Roosevelt and Mao with some techs.

    DG founded a gems/corn/stone city and our warrior discovered Mao's border, which caused us to take a planning break. We quickly built two chariots for worker-stealing, before continuing with the marble settler. Marble is now settled, and we have the pig/fish settler under way. Just discovered Churchill's archer south-west of DG, and have a possibility for a worker and settler steal from DG.

    Stats: 3 Cities, 10 Pop, 6 Workers
    Tech: Currency 725 BC

    Spoiler :

    TS 09 : 625 BC - 375 BC (Turn 100) Played by Mitchum

    Report to follow...

    Stats: 4 Cities, 13 Pop, 7 Workers

    Spoiler :

    TS 10 : 375 BC - 1 AD (Turn 115) Played by bcool

    Links: Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2

    Moscow builds several axes to protect chariots for worker steals and for protection against possible DeG attack.

    Great debates about how to balance tech, war/protection, growth, great people production and wonders. Made plans to settle islands, sending workers to scrub and settlers to follow. Settled on plans to set up for Colossus and The Great Library and Hagia Sophia. Discussed Parthenon but in the end rejected it. Set up switch to Organized Religion. And set up a steal of Theology from Gandhi.

    Gandhi bulbed Philosophy in 275 BC with a GS from Galley City.

    Started wars with De Gaulle captured 2 workers, ceasefire, then another worker with another war and ceasefire. Denied Roosevelt's demand took a -1 hit and remained without OB with him.

    This is when we first decided to use two forts in combination with Galley City as a galley channel to Paris. This would be set up soon after, and we'd use the same stratagem repeatedly throughout the game.

    Stats: 5 Cities, 18 Pop, 2 Settlers, 11 Workers (3 stolen)

    Tech: [/B]Metal Casting 225 BC ; Iron Working - trade 175 BC ; Polytheism - trade 175 BC ; Masonry - trade 175 BC ; Monotheism - trade 150 BC ; Aesthetics 75 BC

    Spoiler :

    TS 11 : 1 AD - 500 AD (Turn 135) Lit, Theo, Mach, Paper, Warring w/ France, Map trading Played by LowtherCastle

    Links: Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2 ; Turnset Report, Part 3

    This is the turnset in which we really catapulted forward.

    We kept stealing workers from De Gaulle, and repeatedly signing ceasefires. The operation was a great success, as we now have 20 workers total for our 9 cities. :D Rheims (the corn/stone/gems city) was captured at the end of the TS. With Machinery now in, we're setting up for a capture of the French core cities. We built a fort next the Gandhi's Galley City, which will allow us to jump to Paris with our galleys for a quick capture.

    We made a late decision to try for Pyramids in Moscow without stone and... got it! :D Stole Theology from Gandhi in Galley City, with the intention of building Hagia Sophia (for both GE points and worker benefit). HS is currently 3t from completion (had to delay it so we can get a pure GS). We also built TGL in Pigs, and intend to put NE there.

    Settled 3 island cities: Cuba (fish/clam 2-tile island); Bahamas (corn/copper/fish/clam); Bermuda (pigs/sheep/fish).

    Traded for almost the entire world map, revealing Stalingrad among other things.

    Stats: 9 Cities, 45 Pop, 20 Workers (11 stolen)
    Tech: Literature 75 AD ; Theology 225 AD; Machinery 325 AD ; Paper 425 AD

    Spoiler :

    TS 12 : 500 AD - 600 AD (Turn 140) Construction, Hagia Sophia Played by mdy

    Links: Pre-Play Plan ; Turnset Report

    We've completed Hagia Sophia. Churchill built Hanging Gardens before we could even start on Aqueduct. We were planning on it, but considered it a long shot. Pigs popped our second GS, which partiallu bulbed Education. Moscow is lined up to get the next GP, with approximately 40% GE odds, so fingers crossed. ;) We also started the unit build-up in Fish and Moscow (maces and cats), with the intent of grabbing Paris in the short term. Stole a further 5 workers from De Gaulle, as well.

    Stats: 10 Cities, 46 Pop, 25 Workers (14 stolen)

    Spoiler :

    TS 13 : 600 AD - 840 AD (Turn 152) Education, Oxford/NE, GE, Paris Played by bbp

    Links: Initial PPP ; Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2 ; Turnset Report, Part 3

    We finished Education and 6 universities. Moscow is finishing Oxford and Pigs NE in 1t. Captured Paris, by landing 2 cats and 6 maces via galley. Churchill captured a southern French city, as well. The plan is to continue on and capture Orleans. After that we would gear up for a war with China. Research is on Engineering @ 0% while we finish Oxford.

    Also, settled corn/fish/deer in NW.

    Moscow popped a GE @ 40%, so we're set for Mining Inc. :cool:

    We are up to 12 DOW's against De Gaulle. He hates us. :D

    Stats: 12 Cities, 66 Pop, 25 Workers (14 stolen)
    Tech: Horseback Riding (trade) 600 AD; Education (bulb) 660 AD

    Spoiler :

    TS 14 : 840 AD - 1040 AD (Turn 164) Engineering, Gunpowder, Orleans, China Played by bcool

    Links: Pre-Play Plan ; Pre-Play Plan 2

    We captured Orleans after a dicey battle and completed Engineering. Signed another ceasefire with De Gaulle (I'll have to go back and count how many DOWs there have been :lol:). He is down to just 2 cities and one option we're currently considering is to found a gift city in the north ice so we can eliminate him altogether.

    Moscow has the Heroic Epic now, and is pushing out trebs. In the near future we would like to go after Mao, capture Shanghai-Beijing-Guangzhou first, then reduce him to 3 cities. That would allow us to gift him a city near Moscow for Communism stealing purposes.

    MoM built in Siberia.

    Pigs and GP Farm are growing and we intend to use a current GS to golden age, for a switch to Caste/Pac and a quick run through Communism for State Prop.

    Stats: 13 Cities, 91 Pop, 26 Workers, 526 bpt @ 100% w/ -193 gpt
    Tech: Engineering 900 AD; Gunpowder 980 AD; Philosophy (steal from Gandhi) 1000 AD
    Spoiler :

    TS 15 : 1040 AD - 1180 AD (Turn 178) Liberalism, China war Played by LowtherCastle

    Links: Pre-Play Plan ; Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2 ; Turnset Report, Part 3

    Started a 1-GP golden age and switched to Caste/Pacifism first, then Nationhood for the espionage bonus. Settled two more cities on the southernmost island. Started the war with China, captured Shanghai and Beijing. Churchill captured Marseilles, taking De Gaulle down to one city. We settled an ice city in the north and gifted it to DG for survival. Planning to finish Scientific Method (2 bulbs) and Liberalism next turn, taking Biology as a freebie. We still need to capture two of Mao's cities to be able to steal Communism, but have only 4t left in golden age for a free civic switch...

    Spoiler :

    TS 16 : 1180 AD - 1340 AD (Turn 194) Communism Played by bbp

    Links: Pre-Play Plan ; Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2 ; Turnset Report, Part 3

    We captured Guangzhou, took a temporary ceasefire with Mao and gifted him St. Nick. Stole Communism there. The initial golden age expired, with Taj slated to finish on T185, for the switch to State Prop. Negotiated peace between Churchill and DG, as DG was on his last breath. We'll capture Lyons later this TS, leaving DG with only an ice city in the north, and look to capture the remaining 3 Chinese cities, as well. Research is on Steel for cannons, and then we switch to ep mode against Roosevelt, to steal Guilds-Banking-Economics-Constitution. We'll need to chain 3 new cities in order to pull off these steals, and raze Lyons and Hangzhou before we can settle the chain. In the meantime, we're slowly starting our build-up for Churchill.

    Stats: 18 Cities, 27 Workers
    Tech: Communism (steal from Mao) 1210 AD

    TS 17 : 1290 AD - 1450 AD (Turn 205) Sushi, England war Played by Mitchum

    Links: Pre-Play Plan ; Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2 ; Turnset Report, Part 3

    Report to follow...

    TS 18 : 1450 AD - 1530 AD (Turn 216) Mining Inc Played by bcool

    Links: Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2 ; Intermediate Pre-Play Plan ; Turnset Report, Part 3

    Report to follow...

    Stats: 37 Cities, 394 Pop, 36 Workers

    TS 19 : 1530 AD - 1600 AD (Turn 230) AL/Phys/Elec/Indu/Comb, India War Played by bbp

    Links: Pre-Play Plan ; Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2 ; Turnset Report, Part 3

    We had some bad luck in the previous TS, popping a GM from Pigs at very low odds. This meant we couldn't start our 3-GP GA on schedule. The first part of this TS was about finishing AL in 1t and then getting Physics quickly for the free GS, which would allow a GA to start. We got that in 4t, balancing it with aggressive Mining/Sushi spread. With Mining spreading and factories being built, our research pace started really rising from here. This was also about the time that Plastic Ducks finished the game - their last posted save was 1750 AD and we set this as our target date. It seemed like a very tall order, and there was a lot of discussion about whether we should beeline the SS and build Three Gorges Dam, or take the Refrigeration shortcut to Superconductors for earlier Research Institutes and build coal plants. We decided that we would have to go for Plastics and that we would have to up our research rate immediately by some aggressive wealth building. Our slider went up from 0% for the first time in a while and we got Electricity in 4t, Industrialism in 4t and Combustion in 2t. The 0% research rate rose from 695bpt to about 1750bpt during these 14t.

    We also fought our first war with Gandhi during this set. Two stacks, composed of cannons, maces and muskets, landed at Vijayanagara and Agra (see screenshot below) and rapidly captured 3 cities each. After that we were a little out-stretched in the field, and WW became a problem - up to 6 unhappy in top cities, which were already tapping out their happy caps with Sushi growth. We took a ceasefire to regroup and set up a 2t strike against Varanasi and Lahore for the beginning of the next turnset.

    We also stole Rifling from Roosevelt. He researched Democracy for us, as well, and we stole it from one of our Trojan cities. Siberia completed Statue of Liberty in 3t.

    Tech: Assembly Line 1530 AD ; Rifling 1535 AD - stolen from Roosevelt ; Physics 1550 AD; Democracy 1555 AD - stolen from Roosevelt ; Electricity 1570 AD ; Industrialism 1590 AD ; Combustion 1600 AD
    Spoiler :

    TS 20 : 1600 AD - 1655 AD (Turn 241) Plastics/Radio/Computers/Superconductors/Arty/Rocketry Played by shyuhe

    Links: Pre-Play Plan ; Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2 ; Turnset Report, Part 3

    We discovered Plastics in the first 2t and quickly completed Three Gorges Dam - with all mainland factories done, this was an immediate 500+ hammers. We followed this with a beeline of Superconductors and quickly completed a number of Research Institutes. During this turnset our research rate skyrocketed from about 3000bpt to over 8000bpt. :thumbsup: Artillery and Rocketry were done in 1t each.

    Tech: Plastics 1610 AD ; Radio 1625 AD ; Computers 1635 AD; Superconductors 1645 AD ; Artillery 1650 AD ; Rocketry 1655 AD
    Spoiler :

    TS 21 : 1655 AD - 1690 AD (Turn 248) Spacemen Played by bcool

    Links: Pre-Play Plan ; Turnset Report, Part 1 ; Turnset Report, Part 2

    At the start of this TS, we switched to Free Religion, giving us over 9000bpt. We went through Fiss-Sat-FO-Fus-Comp in 1t each, actually slowing down our research rate as it was too fast. :eek: Genetics is planned to be 2t of research, since we can't complete the SS any faster if we research it in 1t. Siberia is building Docking Bay and Stasis Chamber, with other cities building just one part each (Moscow and Hammer City on Engines).

    With 2t left to research Genetics, we dropped our science to 0%, and upped our culture a bit so we can take out Gandhi without suffering from WW. We took Varanasi, Lahore and Bangalore in 2t easily and signed peace, leaving him with only an island city and Galley City. The high research over the last few turns allowed us to commit some hammers to military, and we had 20+ Marines ready for Stalin. In 1690 AD, we took his 3 cities out amphibiously in 1t without losses. That leaves only Roosevelt. We gifted him Ecology and he's cleaning 5-6 fallout tiles, but that still leaves a lot.

    Tech: Fission 1660 AD ; Satellites 1665 AD ; Fiber Optics 1670 AD - GS bulb ; Fusion 1675 AD ; Composites 1680 AD ; Genetics 1690 AD
    Spoiler :

    TS 22 : 1690 AD - 1750 AD (Turn 260) Atonement Played by Mitchum and bcool

    Links: Turnset Report, Part 1

    Report to follow...


    Edit: I'll go back and edit all the TS reports in sometime this week
  3. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

    Feb 5, 2009
    shyuhe told me he might be away this week and/or next, so I'll (temporarily) sub for him. He can update the roster further on in-thread as we progress.

    Welcome bcool, Mitchum and ZPV. :beer:

    I think everyone here is excited to have some fresh faces around. I might edit in some brief description of our process (or complete lack thereof :lol:) for you guys later, though I know you're all experienced SG-ers anyway.


    1. Mitchum Played T0-27 T90-100 T189-205
    2. shyuhe Played T230-241
    3. ZPV M.I.A.
    4. babybluepants Played T27-40 T75-90 T140-152 T178-189 T216-230
    5. bcool Played T40-48 T100-115 T152-164 T205-216
    6. LowtherCastle Played T48-57 T115-135 T164-178
    7. mystyfly M.I.A.
    8. mdy Played T57-75 T135-140
    9. Silu lurking
    10. Soirana erasing
    11. RRRaskolnikov in charge of bad jokes
  4. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

    Feb 5, 2009
    Previous Discussion

    Spoiler :

    babybluepants 7 Sept 2010 22:41

    Oh, sure. :) The first thing I'd do when the save is released is study Demo/Score/etc. I just meant for the next couple of weeks...

    LowtherCastle 7 Sept 2010 18:44

    Same here. I'm saying we can do some testing now. I find it better to test in advance because as soon as the save comes out, we'll want to start playing. I already have a fairly good idea of the opening, but there is still some testing to make sure of some possibilities. Plus, this testing enlightens us about what we need to know from the nearby fogged tiles, etc.


    babybluepants 7 Sept 2010 22:54

    Do you have a test map with the new mod already or spreadsheets? I'll make a map tmr most likely, if you haven't.

    One thing that slightly concerns me about initial testing is being able to exactly replicate the mechanics of the diplomatic situation. In my experience with very early warring, little things can make quite a bit of difference as to when the AIs are willing to talk or sign peace. No point speculating, until we have the actual game file, though.

    babybluepants 7 Sept 2010 01:36

    I don't see an option to attach files, so:
    Test map

    LowtherCastle 8 Sept 2010 18:50

    Hey Guys,

    I took bbp's test save and added -2:mad: for getting nuked, built the AI cities, eliminated their units, and added tons of radiation. Altered save. Of course, we still don't know what the exact negmods will be, maybe -3 more for DoWing or whatever. No matter.

    1. If anyone can rapidly play a whole game, any time before we start, it would be great just to know if there's anything espeically weird that happens.
    2. I think it's realy important to get an idea of our initial tech path and Capital MM, along with any conditionals you notice, based what we don't know yet.

    Techpath/MM example: Our capital starts with -1:food: for unhealthy reasons. Unless someone proves me wrong, this tells me that we start with Fishing. The wb will gain us the needed health, plus build us the worker much faster.

    Conditional example: Depending on how many negmods the AIs have at the start, we might or might not decide we'll be able to eventually trade techs with them. If so, then we might want to send out explorers (wb?) asap, to establish lucrative trade routes for when we DoP them. Also would need Sailing in this case. Also, we might want to beeline Alpha, to get them to DoP with us, if necessary. Or whatever. (Just brainstorming...)

    I have already found a pretty good tech path to 1500BC, but rather than mention it here, I think it's better if you guys try out paths that you think are promising, then we can compare.

    I've also thought a whole bunch about scenario-specific strategy and I'll write those thoughts down and pm you guys later. Let's share our thoughts and gather them together as much as possible.


    babybluepants 8 Sept 2010 19:30


    No access to the game now, but I think I may have left all VCs turned on. That should be fixable in a text editor. Would affect long-term test-play, due to AP and UN mainly.

    Re: full-length testing - I think Stalin's extra techs may prove to be important. Not much we can do about it now. Wish they included the score board in the starting screenshot. Don't think I'll have time for a full test this week, though I'd like to do it eventually.

    I've tried playing the first 50t quickly. It's definitely awkward. I'll send a save later this week, when I have something nailed down.


    PS: Welcome to the team, bcool. :)

    LowtherCastle 8 Sept 2010 22:00

    Here's my version of bbps with only space VC. Oddly, after loading the WB save, the AIs are also angry that we DoWed them, so now it's -8:mad:

    bcool 8 Sept 2010 22:14

    Hello everyone,

    Thanks for invitation to join the team!

    I should be able to play a full-length test in the next few days.

    I already tried a normal game with the same AI and settings but without the starting map and radiation. Obviously quite different but there will be a lot of warfare for sure. And the industrial leaders could be building wonders earlier than we expect.

    I'm away from the game at the moment so I haven't looked at the test game, but have we guessed what extra techs the other AI have?

    I would assume they all know ecology... And there was some speculation that Stalin's lands wouldn't be irradiated.

    Erkon said the map would be similar to "fractal with a bunch of islands". If we can get someone to trade with the great lighthouse seems like a decent wonder to shot for if we really do have a lot of islands. Low sea level fractal maps don't usually have a lot of islands though.

    I apologize if you guys have already discussed a lot of this before...


    mystyfly 9 Sept 2010 18:14

    Hi guys, I'm back :wavey:

    Nice to see us discussing already ;) I am looking foreward to this game as it will be very different and challenging, especially MM wise.

    As to my availability, I can't promise too much as I'm starting my studies at the university at the end of september and am moving into my first own appartment in the beginning of october, I will try to contribute as much as possible anyway.

    I'm not sure running lots of test games just yet will help so much as so much is unknown and those game might very well be very different.

    Welcome to the team, bcool :beer:


    LowtherCastle 9 Sept 2010 21:59

    Possible scenario priorities:
    1. Early land and water scouting (dotmap, resources, trade routes, plusmods asap, etc)
    2. Lots of workers
    3. REX (Imperialistic) (hammer-rich cities + coastal if GLH/Mids/Representation)
    4. Slave farm nearest AI ( use land scout(warrior) )
    5. Tech trading
    6. Pre-road all settler paths (4x faster movement)
    7. ???

    My idea for this test: build a warrior scout asap, then wb. 1pop the wb at BW, overflow into wkr1. Then wb2, 1pop, wkr2. Then library. I forget when I did TW. I made two fishnets, but the second wb could go scouting instead. Clams maybe not that important so soon though I used them to grow and for health.

    Test results:
    T8  BC-3680 t1 fishing done
    T9  BC-3640 t1 war1 done wb1 next
    T23 BC-3080 t2 BW revolt to slavery (because need to whip off pop2)
    T24 BC-3040 t2 1poprush 
    T25 BC-3000 t2 wb1
    T31 BC-2760 t2 wkr1
    T36 BC-2560 t2 pop2 AH 1poprush
    T37 BC-2520 t2 wb2 cows1 scrubbed build wkr2 for 1t
    T38 BC-2480 t2 building cow pasture and war2
    T41 BC-2360 t2 pop2 cow1 pasture
    T46 BC-2160 t2 wkr2 
    T47 BC-2120 t2 cows2 scrubbed
    T49 BC-2040 t2 war2 WTG building lib
    T50 BC-2000 t2 pop3
    T53 BC-1880 t2 pop4
    T57 BC-1720 t2 lib
    T59 BC-1640 t2 pop6 gold2 scrubbed war3
    T61 BC-1560 t2 gold2
    T62 BC-1520 t2 phood
    It's possible that skipping BW is better, so someone could give it a shot. Some questions that could be tested:
    1. Is it better to build a settler/wb sooner and build a lib/AcademyGS in City 2?
    2. When is the best time to build a settler?
    3. Should wb2 go scouting?
    4. When do we need TW?
    5. Skip BW, beeline ...Sailing...Alpha

    Technical questions:
    1. What are the mechanics of gaining peace? WHen can we DoP without any battles?


    babybluepants 10 Sept 2010 02:06

    SIP Test

    Tech: Agriculture (3680 BC) / AH (3240 BC) / Wheel (2920 BC) / Writing (2320 BC) / Mysticism (1920 BC) / Fishing (1800 BC) / Meditation (1600 BC) / Priesthood (due 1480 BC)

    Capital: worker / warrior / warrior (part) and grow to 2 / worker / warrior / warrior and grow to 3 / settler (part) / library (asa Writing done) / settler / worker (1t) / warrior / warrior (1t) and grow to 5 / worker

    Second city (2W of fish - founded 1720 BC): WB

    Worker 1: scrub cow 2N / pasture cow / road cow / road gold 1W / scrub gold / mine gold / scrub second gold / move to second city site to scrub / scrub pig

    Worker 2 (complete T34 - 2640 BC): scrub cow NEE / pasture cow / road 1E of capital / scrub rice / farm rice / road rice

    Stats @ 1520 BC:
    2 cities, 6 pop, 2 workers (1 more in 1t), 4 warriors, 25bpt with -3gpt, 115g in treasury, 24/100 GS
    both cows, 1 gold and rice improved; second gold scrubbed; 3t to scrub pig

    LowtherCastle 10 Sept 2010 18:00

    How did you get 115g in your treasury?

    babybluepants 10 Sept 2010 18:08

    Saving cash from Writing to library completion, which was probably about 7-8t.

    babybluepants 12 Sept 2010 16:43


    I tried settling 1NW, followed by 1N of rice, for comparison.
    Stats @ 1520 BC:
    2 cities, 5 pop, 3 workers, 3 warriors, 34bpt with -2gpt, 102g in treasury, 0/100 GS, 164/546b COL
    both cows, both golds and grass farm improved; rice hasn't been scrubbed yet, WB in 2t.

    SIP test:

    I'm still assembling my initial thoughts on strategic issues. Will send in a couple of days.


    Mitchum 12 Sept 2010 18:46

    I don't think you can settle 1N of Rice because it has fallout on it. Have you considered settling N+NE on the plains tile? That puts the Clam and Fish in the BFC...

    I'll try to run some tests in the next day or two myself.

    bcool 12 Sept 2010 00:26

    So I attempted to play to the end of the test save. But it is quite a slog especially near the end. My play could have been better, but I'm at 1888 AD and at least 50 turns from victory. --mostly because of the time it will take to clear the fallout.

    Some things I learned along the way...

    A) Clearing Fallout Issues.
    --The AI does not clear fallout within its borders outside of the fat cross of its cities, and you can NOT clear fallout in friendly AI's lands. So to clear all of the fallout we will have to clear at least some of it when we are at war with the AI. Protecting tons of workers while at war will be a bit annoying...
    --The cold climate will also make clearing the fallout difficult due to the vast ice fields. Hopefully the real game won't have every non-forested tile irradiated.

    B) Oracle options
    I wasn't able to beat the AI to the oracle for a bureaucracy slingshot in several attempts. Perhaps you guys can do better, but at least in the test game the oracle is built around 900 BC.

    An interesting alternative that I tried, and was able to do, was getting feudalism with the oracle. This opens up several useful options
    1) serfdom (gasp!--I don't know about you but I've almost never used this, but in this game...maybe)
    2) longbow (because I did find it at least somewhat likely that an AI might send an early stack our way depending on how far away they start, etc. And there is a small chance we might not be able to hook up copper,iron, or horses before the stacks arrive.
    3) We can tech bureaucracy with feudalism without going through code of laws
    4) An early Monarchy (prerequisite for feudalism) is useful early on for the cheap happiness from warriors.

    C) Alphabet?
    Getting alphabet somewhat early is nice because we can probably buy peace with tech trades with the AI before the stacks arrive. However, we won't be able to trade many techs early on except maybe with Gandhi.

    D) Corporations or Communism...
    In my test game I went with Communism rather than corporations. I never got the great engineer for mining corp, and I thought I would have a large empire given that there are no domination limits.
    With no vassals there are off the main continent maintenance costs, so that might make the corporation route more promising.

    LowtherCastle 13 Sept 2010 20:22

    Excellent job, bcool! Great info on fallout. That's the kind of stuff that's critical to be aware of. It can drastically affect our early strategy decisions.

    Could you upload a late save, please?


    babybluepants 13 Sept 2010 15:51


    Interesting find about clearing fallout. :thumbsup: That's quite surprising... Given that there is no dom limit in this game and that we'll be hard-pressed to tech-trade with anyone other than Gandhi, I was initially assuming that we'd conquer most of the world anyway. There are bound to be some major headaches in clearing the last bits of fallout, but that's only an MM nightmare and not a real difficulty, assuming we have complete tech and production superiority late game.

    In my initial attempt, I got Oracle CS in 850 BC and Mids in 300's. Those are obviously quite late for Emp, but the AIs are very slow here. I just tried it again from my 1NW 1520 BC save, and got the Oracle in 775 BC in the second city. The Pyramids were BIDL right after that, but the GLH looked quite possible. We don't really know what the AI starting situation is... Stalin, at least, could be in position to start at a regular Emp pace or even faster.

    You can settle anywhere, so long as you clear the fallout first. LC was already testing the coastal capital - I just wanted to try out the other two spots for comparison. I think all three hold some advantages. Unfortunately, their long-term values are somewhat related to what we find out about the map and the AIs later, which means that we should probably evaluate the capital location in terms of flexibility.

    ZPV 13 Sept 2010 18:12

    Hi Everyone,
    (cc: the other team members)

    Thanks for the invitation and the praise, LC. Nice playing with you again.

    Is there anything I should know in advance of the team thread being posted? (e.g. the existence of test games or hazing rituals :p)

    I think the most important things to test are:
    > how quickly we can increase our tech rate
    > how the AIs behave when irradiated (workers, city builds, reluctance to commit to war plans, etc.) This can inform us, regardless of their true tech level in the game (which we'll be able to estimate very effectively from scores and power levels on turn zero).


    babybluepants 13 Sept 2010 18:21

    Welcome to the team, ZPV! :beer:

    Unfortunately, we don't have any hazing rituals. :( Maybe we should invent one in your honour...

    LC, myself and bcool have done a bit of testing, and communicated via PM. I think I'll re-post all of our PMs in the actual thread, which should be up tmr according to Alan.

    The current 4000 BC test save:

    LowtherCastle 13 Sept 2010 20:10

    Hey Guys,

    Without getting into the heavy details, does anyone know, for sure, how civic upkeep works? In particular, I'm trying to understand what happens when the # of cities gets really large, as in 20, 30, 40, 50, ...

    Is there a cap on how much more we pay for each new city or does the additional civic cost just keep on increasing?


    shyuhe 14 Sept 2010 04:50

    I haven't looked at the code on this point but my recollection is that it caps out after a certain point, ignoring colonial maintenance (which isn't a factor in this game). It is somewhere in the 10-15 gpt range I think.

    babybluepants 14 Sept 2010 05:23

    I somehow thought it was directly proportional to both the number of cities and total population, with no cap. I'm probably wrong...

    Does anyone have the formula for trade relations bonus handy? Since we know all AI from T0, I'm wondering if we could compile the dates that would give bonuses per gift such as Writing, Alpha, etc. Could beelining Alpha allow us to OB with some of them early?

    Edit: NVM, I dug through the SG11 thread and found Silu's posts (page 40 of SG11)...

    ZPV 14 Sept 2010 12:45

    I've done some digging around - that article still seems to be correct, more or less.

    The formula is:
    (Pop - 8 - (0/1/2/3/4)) * (0.08/0.12/0.16)
    + (Cities - 3.5 + (0/1/2/3/4)) * (0.4/0.5/0.6)

    The first set of options is determined by the type of civic (Gov't/Legal/Labor/Econ./Religion), and the second by the level of upkeep (Low/Med/High). No Upkeep does what it says on the tin.

    A difficulty modifier is then applied, but it is 100% for Emperor, so we can ignore it.


    The short answer is, it'll be roughly linear with number of cities.
  5. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

    May 31, 2006
    San Diego, CA
    Checking in. I'm looking forward to playing with you guys!!

    Here is a PM that I sent to LC that I'd like to share here:

    Early land is good, but keep in mind that we won't get any positive diplo or trade routes until we are at peace with any AI we meet. I'm unsure of the DoP mechanics, but we should try to get peace with the AI(s) that is on our same land mass ASAP so that we can REX safely. Otherwise, we'll need units out ahead of our settlers. The AI starts with Archery on Emperor, right? Checking... yes per the BtS Reference Guide. So, our warriors could be in serious trouble.

    Agreed. Before we can improve any tiles, we'll have to scrub fallout, which will take a lot of time. We'll likely need 1.5x to 2x the normal worker staff we're used to if we want to make our cities productive quickly. It will be interesting to see how much fallout is outside of our starting area. Knowing Erkon, it will be all over the place.

    This brings up an interesting point. If the AI have a lot less fallout than we do, we could be WAY behind the 8-ball when it comes to fast development and building Wonders. Hopefully they have enough to slow them down. By watching how soon Stonehenge goes, we should get an idea of what we're up against.

    REX is good, but we must do is safely. Speaking of Wonders, we need to decide which early ones we want to go for. Oracle, Pyramids and GLH sound good, but knowing whether we have Stone and/or Marble should help solidify things.

    Since we're at war, it will be hard to worker steal for some time. I presume that we'll eventually wipe the closest AI down to 1 city, so we shouldn't need to worry too much about our negative diplo modifiers as long as we can DoP when we need to for safer REX.

    Tech trading will be difficult until we meet all AI and can get peace with some of them.

    Pre roading can be good, but it only speeds up the settler's travel time 2x, not 4x, right? In any event, I think our workers will have more important things to do, like cleaning up the mess you guys left after SGOTM 10!

    7. We really need to decide where to settle too. I think it's best to settle on the plains tile N+NE for quick access to growth (Fish and Clams) without needing to clean up fallout first. I presume that's where you settled since you built two work boats, but I just wanted to be sure.

    I think warrior (for scouting) -> WB -> Worker or warrior -> WB -> WB would both be good openings. With both the fish and clams netted, building a worker or two should take no time at all.

    I'm not sure if we can afford a scouting workboat right away. I think our first warrior will have to suffice until we've netted both seafood (for both the food and the health bonus), but that's without having done any testing...

    BW -> AH sounds like a good plan. I don't think we should delay BW. We'll need it to whip away pops that are working unimproved tiles.

    To answer your questions:

    Whether to build a settler before a library will depend on what our warrior finds. If we find a juicy spot with a strategic resource, we may want to build a settler sooner. It would be nice to hook up horses, copper, stone and/or marble. The first two would help defend against the AI and the latter would help with our Wonder building plans. Building settlers also allows the whip unhappiness to wear off. So, I think it's too early to tell.

    See answer above.

    I think it would be better used to net the clams. Our warrior should meet the AI on our land mass soon enough. We won't be able to OB or get any trade routes from them this early. I would prefer to have the clams netted. Again, I've done no testing on this yet.

    I'm not sure without having played a test game. With your proposed tech path, I presume you're going after a CoL sling. I'm sure that we could fit in TW somewhere if we need it.

    I don't think Alpha is needed right away. Even if we find several AI and get peace with them, they will likely not be trading any techs with us until we can get our diplo modifiers up. Unless some of the AI are willing to trade techs below cautious level. Sailing would obviously be needed if we want to make a go at the Great Lighthouse. Again, we need to decide which wonders we want to chase and which ones we're willing to let go.

    What is the unitless AW bug you mentioned in the OSS thread from SGOTM 11? I assume it was to throw everybody a curveball, but I just wanted to check.
  6. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

    Nov 30, 2006
    Gone fishing for the summer
    Checking in. As I've told some of you guys (but not all - the CFC PM'ing can be cumbersome at times), I'll have internet but no civ for the next week so I can't really participate in the discussion yet.

    As for the roster, I imagine it'll be a while before we can even think about playing a set anyways given the complexities of this game. But I'll be keeping tabs on the roster etc. once I'm back full time. Bbp will take care of those things in the mean time though :)
  7. ZPV


    Jan 16, 2008
    First things first: Hi everyone!

    This summarizes my first thought about the victory condition. We'll need to get a zillion workers, and quite some units. We'll find a way to get them. The game is too short for us to conquer the world, and then tech up to space (although I might have to ignore my t150 target date rule of thumb for this game)


    Opening moves: My instinct tells me to settle up on that plain. I don't have better than that, since my test to date has focused on other things.

    AI Openings: In the test game, all of the inland AIs made the same opening:
    Archer (City Defence) -> Worker -> Archer (City Defence) -> Settler -> Archer (City Defence). Then the Settler and two archers walked.
    Worker behaviour was a bit haphazard - they don't take the fallout (much) into account when they decide which square to improve, so they can ignore open resources to scrub fallout on identical ones.
    No-one built any sort of attack force afterwards; the most common pattern after that was Barracks -> Granary -> Settler, but a couple of AIs slotted in a Reserve or Attack Archer.

    Conclusion: we can and will lose land to a very proximate AI, but we won't face an attack until ~1000BC at the earliest. They aren't great at building multiple workers for us to steal at the very beginning of the game, although I didn't get a chance to see how they respond to one steal.

    Random thoughts for this game:
    Trade routes will mostly be by water at the start - because you can't build anything on fallout, and from memory that includes roads.
    Health is a big big issue. I suspect we don't want to chop those forests immediately, (save for 1, if there are an odd number in the capital). Poprushing stuff and just plain building workers and settlers is probably better.
    GLH: yes, please!
    Oracle slingshot: CS is worth it; I wouldn't put too much stock in other slingshots though. We need a huge gain like that to make it worthwhile, since the cost is a lot of worthless techs.
    Pyramids: I don't see the spare forests to chop into it, or stone, or the ability to support highish populations...
    Peace with the AI: Their power will be higher than ours, and there's not too much we can do about that. I'll need to look up the peace value algorithms, but I think we'll have to wait 50 turns, or until Alphabet, before we can realistically get peace.
  8. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

    Feb 5, 2009
    We can road it.

    That was my first thought, as well. However, the need to scrub fallout everywhere either by owning land or doing it in state of war contradicts this.

    Wonders: I think that Oracle CS / Pyramids / MoM is ideal, with GLH situational and HG possible for Mining Inc GE. We can't know the reliability of any those yet, unfortunately, as we first need to somehow quickly evaluate the speed of the AI in-game compared to test game, IMHO.

    Health: I was keeping ahead in tests by clearing fallout with multiple workers and hooking up land-based resources asap.

    Peace with AI: no idea. I find that on Emp, with early worker steals and intended chariot rush, I can usually get a treaty about the time I finish barracks and/or first chariot. We most likely won't be building up any power early, so you may be right about Alphabet. Beelining Alphabet for relations might just be a good move. I've been thinking about this, but haven't had a chance to test yet.
  9. bcool

    bcool Deity

    Jan 25, 2008
    San Francisco, CA
    Checking In and hello to everyone. Excited to be on the team.

    As I mentioned in the pm, I tried to play out a full length game.

    I've attached a late game test. I misread the victory conditions and thought I had to have all the fallout cleared before I launched, so I emphasized the fallout cleanup and last wars before finishing the tech path for the space race.

    Anyways I played it out a bit further and launched by 1910--not an impressive date I'm sure.
    Major reasons for poor date imo.
    1) got feudalism with oracle --since I was beaten to the oracle in several attempts to get Civil Service.
    2) didn't get pyramids or the great lighthouse nor was I able to capture either early on.
    3) somewhat limited tech trading opportunies
    4) didn't go with corporations (thought communism might have been better, but probably not)
    5) slowed down by need to clear fallout and the late game realization that I basically had to conquer the world to get access to all of the fallout.
    6) probably built fewer workers than I needed early on (near the end every city was producing them to get the the ~150 I needed to finish the fallout clean up.
  10. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

    Feb 5, 2009
    First thing to decide, I guess, is where to settle. I assume the consensus will be for a coastal city NNE. That's what I initially assumed, as well. I've been testing the other sites for comparison for two reasons:
    1) The start is so unconventional, I at least can't rely on my instincts to determine the best opening.
    2) Given the need to scrub fallout, intuition says that early workers > WBs.

    All three possible sites hold some advantages, IMHO. I think that, without further testing, I would probably lean still towards coastal for flexibility. Not entirely sure, though.

    Here's a statistical comparison of the 3 starts to 1520 BC submitted thus far...

    SIP 1520 BC
    Builds: 2 workers, 4 warriors, 1 settler, library, worker (1t)
    Total production (capital): 412h
    Techs: Agri, AH, Wheel, Writing, Myst, Fish, Medi, PH (83/93)
    Total beakers: 874b
    GPP: 24
    Cities: 2
    Population: 6
    Yield: Capital - 16f 12h 18c ; Second - 4f 2h 2c
    Net yield: 8f 14h 20c
    Economy: 25bpt, -3gpt, 115g
    Civics: None

    1NW 1520 BC
    Builds: 3 workers, 3 warriors, 1 settler, library, WB (2t)
    Total production (capital): 415h
    Techs: Agri, AH, Wheel, Writing, Myst, Fish, Medi, PH, COL (164/546)
    Total beakers: 1048b
    GPP: 0
    Cities: 2
    Population: 5
    Yield: Capital - 9f 9h 24c ; Second - 6f 4h 2c
    Net yield: 5f 13h 26c
    Economy: 34bpt, -2gpt, 102g
    Civics: None

    Builds: 2 workers, 2 warriors, 2 WB, library
    Total production (capital): 345h-390h
    Techs: Fish, BW, AH, Writing, Myst, Poly, PH
    Total beakers: 915b
    GPP: 0?
    Cities: 1
    Population: 6
    Yield: Capital - 15f 8h 17c 6gpp OR 21f 9h 19c
    Net yield: 3f 8h 17c 6gpp OR 9f 9h 19c
    Economy: 28bpt, 0gpt OR 23bpt, 0gpt, treasury?
    Civics: Slavery
  11. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

    May 31, 2006
    San Diego, CA
    I just played a test game out until T79 (900 BC). Here are some key notes:

    T1 - Settle N+NE. Build warrior. Research Fishing.
    T8 - Fishing -> BW
    T9 - Warrior -> WB
    T21 - BW -> AH. Revolt to Slavery
    T24 - Grow to 2. Whip WB
    T25 - WB -> Worker 1. WB to Fish.
    T33 - AH -> Writing
    T34 - Worker 1 -> WB 2. Worker 1 scrub/mine gold SW.
    T39 - Grow to 2. Whip WB 2.
    T40 - WB 2 -> Warrior 2. WB nets Clams.
    T44 - Warrior 2 -> Warrior 3 (I need to grow). Gold mine done.
    T45 - Worker 1 to second gold. Scrub/mine.
    T46 - Writing -> Mysticism
    T47 - Grow to 3. Citizens work Fish, Clam and Gold
    T50 - Mysticism -> Mediation Warrior 3 -> Library
    T51 - Grow to 4. Citizen to GL Forest while waiting for Gold mine #2
    T54 - Meditation -> PH
    T55 - Gold 2 mined. Citizens on Fish, Clams and 2 Golds. Research rate is picking up.
    T56 - Worker 1 scrub/pasture cows W of St. Petes.
    T57 - PH -> Math !?
    T58 - Library -> Worker 2. Research gets another boost.
    T65 - Worker 2 -> Oracle. Worker 2 to scrub/pasture Cow SE of St. Petes.
    T67 - Math -> CoL (12 turns). Worker 1 to help Worker 2.
    T72 - Worker 1 to scrub/mine plains hill. Worker 2 to scrub grassland 2S of St Petes.
    T75 - Grow to 6. Work Fish, Clam, 2 Gold and 2 Cows
    T78 - Whip Oracle for 2 (would finish in 3 turns the slow way) - Could have done one Math-enhanced chop instead. Citizens on Fish, Clam, 2 Gold.
    T79 - CoL completed. Oracle Completed. Take Civil Service as free tech!!​
    So, is completing the Oracle on T79 (900 BC) safe? If so, the key was to start working both gold mines ASAP so that we could self-research all of Math and CoL in time.

    The drawback here is that we only have one city with 4 pops (6 pops if we chop one forest rather than whipping). If we do the chop rather than the whip, we could crank out settlers and workers in no time in a Bureacratic capital with 6 pops working Fish, Clam, 2 Gold, 2 Cows. Or, we could get a quick GS for an Academy while slowing our REX a bit. Our research would continue to crank away with Burea, Library, 2x Gold (and Academy soon).

    Final save and 1520 BC save uploaded for comparison.

    Attached Files:

  12. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

    Feb 5, 2009
    Can't really say what a safe Oracle date is. That seems to be about the date I can achieve. Maybe 1000 BC, but with significant sacrifices elsewhere. Only 1 city, 4 pop and 2 workers at that date isn't very promising, though.

    With settling 1NW, followed by 1N of rice and then stone/sheep/rice/clams, I managed a 775 BC sling with Oracle in the second city. Math+COL was done in 850 BC and Oracle could've been built in capital by then, at the cost of the third settler being much later. I also had 4 workers. Not sure if the academy was already done, but I think so.

    Also, both of these skip Sailing/Masonry, so no shot at GLH until quite late.

    I'm not so sure we can sling CS here...
  13. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

    May 31, 2006
    San Diego, CA
    As you said, it's hard to predict what a safe Oracle date would be. I guess it depends on how much fallout the AIs have in their capitals and whether or not they have easy access to marble. We have 3 industrious civs in our game (Roosevelt, De Gaulle and Stalin), which makes it even harder to get Wonders unless we plan to get them as early as possible.

    As I stated, with a chop rather than a whip, we could have 6 pops rather than 4, all of them benefiting from being in a Bureaucratic capital. This would allow us to crank out a quick settler or two. The capital is almost fallout free with most tiles already improved so both workers could follow this new settler. I'm not sure that we'd need 4 workers right now with this opening, but the next builds could likely be settler -> worker -> settler. Unless we want to go after the Great Lighthouse, which we may already be too late for...

    With a few tweaks and building the Oracle in the capital, we may be able to pull off the CS sling by 875 BC or even 900 BC. I'm not as worried about delaying settler #3. Once we have CS, we can quickly make up for any delay in our REX plans.

    Settling on the plains tile has one major drawback. Unhealthiness. I was at -1 and sometimes -2 health due to all of the fallout and lack of fresh water in the capital. Did you run into unhealthiness in your test?
  14. ZPV


    Jan 16, 2008
    In that save, (after deleting the nuke :p) we can get peace (or at least a ceasefire) very early with Gandhi, Roosevelt and Mao. The other three laughed away all my attempts at negotiation. That means we will get the +1 for years of peace in time to take the sting out of the permanent -5 negmod so we can gift more effectively with Alphabet.

    I'm still playing around with different starting sequences; but haven't arrived at a satisfactory conclusion yet. I have half a mind to settle in place and chop everything in sight.
  15. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

    May 31, 2006
    San Diego, CA
    For comparison with the first three test games at 1520 BC:

    NNE - Mine gold mines first
    Builds: 1 worker, 3 warriors, 2 WB, library, 36/60 in worker 2
    Total production (capital): 291 H
    Techs: Fish, BW, AH, Writing, Myst, Med, PH, Math (207/390)
    Total beakers: 1,094 B
    GPP: 0
    Cities: 1
    Population: 4
    Yield: Capital - 11f 7h 28c 0gpp
    Net yield: 3f 7h 28c
    Economy: 35bpt, 0gpt, 0g
    Civics: Slavery

    One minor point with this opening is that we know BW, which may or may not reveal copper nearby. Obviously, we can whip for extra hammers if/when needed as well.
  16. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

    Feb 5, 2009
    I'm not sure what LC did in this save. I couldn't sign peace in the original test. Does the nuke power rating allow the peace treaties? I could sign with all AI after settling the city, despite deleting the nuke.
  17. ZPV


    Jan 16, 2008
    Yes. That nuke gives a huge amount of power, which sufficiently cows the AIs to give peace for free. As I speak, I'm also looking through the code for the cost of suing for peace (and when the AI will give it for free)
  18. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

    May 18, 2005
    Hi guys!

    Since this game is only :)D) about:
    • MaxTechResearch
    • MaxProductionCities
    • KillEmAll(almost)Army
    • MaxWorkers
    I'm thinking we should run a:
    Trade Mission Economy
    to pay for our REX/WorkerForce/Conquest. Simple and sweet.

    So our early focus might be (just brainstorming here):
    1. Exploration with warrior+wb ==> resources, overseas trade mission, trade routes, etc.
    2. Develop our capital.
    3. Build a city for Oracle (CoL or Currency).
    4. Build GLH in our capital/GM Farm, while poprushing settlers/workers.
    5. Spam GMs only, for now. (Anyway our capital is never going to be a research powerhouse.)
    6. Grow all cities (except GM Farm) to happy limit, then run specialists and build workers/settlers. Hence we don't need the Pyramids as desperately.
    7. Our GM Farm builds Colossus.
  19. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

    May 31, 2006
    San Diego, CA
    Interesting concept. I recall reading that you used Great Merchants in SGOTM 11, which allowed you to run your tech slider at 100% for a large portion of the end game.

    For this to work, we'll need to fully understand the mechanics of DoP and OB with the civs in our game. Without open borders, we won't be able to benefit from GM trade missions or foreign trade routes.

    Note that an academy in our capital will help quite a bit in the early part of the game (assuming our capital is working both gold resources), but it's value will decline over time compared to a capital that is working multiple cottages. However, the early gains may just be worth getting a GS first and then focusing on GMs after that.
  20. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

    Aug 29, 2007
    Hi guys, nice to see the next SGOTM up so early :) Welcome bcool, Mitchum and ZPV (didn't we play together in some SG at some point??)

    Looks like you forgot me in the roster, bbp ;)

    I like settling NNE as well. Opening is difficult imo, we start with mining/hunting so we can't start with a WB (which would be strongest as those tiles aren't fallout-ed :)p) and available immediately) but with our techs I prefer fishing > BW; we don't need AH just yet as we have 2 gold + 2 seafood to work. Build something like worker > WB > WB.

    I don't think we can get the oracle with 3 ind AIs, marble or not; doesn't really matter when it's so cheap. Wonders to go for are surely mids, GLH, GL, MoM and oracle for CoL or maybe currency as LC suggested, but with no foreign TRs currency isn't that hot. Getting peace early will be vital for the tech pace, having a good kill ratio is important.

    Not sure about the Trade Mission Economy... we'll want to do lots of warring so until rifling/steel we could do a lot of bulbing (GSs) and capture Teh World and let our huge empire tech at 100% fuelled by a few shrines (gandhi :hammer:) and running lots of MoM-GAs.

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