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SGOTM 12 - Plastic Ducks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    2-3) Agreed.

    1) Maybe yes :)
     
  2. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    @kossin
    OB bonus is quite important if we want to trade with him and adopt a religion.

    We could trade both BW and pottery with Math, which will speed up our research at least a couple of turns to Machinery/Construction/Lit. Math is a tech that AIs love to get, so if we don't trade it away, Gandhi could trade it from other AIs. Sadly we still could not see his research.
     
  3. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Plan for the next 10 turns:

    Spoiler :

    Warrior in the west continues to explore
    Warrior in the east scout in order no enemy archer approaches.
    Chariot scout DR

    T83 Revolt to Bureau+CS
    Missionary go to Moscow
    Worker 2N1W of St Petersburg remove fallout
    Worker 2S of St Petersburg go to 2N1W of St Petersburg
    T84 Worker 2N1W of St Petersburg go 2N2W
    Worker on ruin go 1N
    T85 Slider to 100%
    Worker on Silver road
    Worker on deer road
    Worker on 1N1W of deer road
    T86 Settler out, go to ruin, Moscow build another settler
    T88 City 3 settled => Library
    3 Worker improve deer
    1 Worker on Sliver removes fallout
    T89 1 Worker on deer go to silver and remove
    T90 Settler out, go to 1N of Marble
    1 worker on deer go to remove fallout on silver
    1 worker on deer go 2N to road
    T91 GLH Ok => Library
    1 worker on silver improve silver
    T92 Currency Ok, stop


    If no problem, we can proceed quickly.

    I may not be able to reply quickly because of work + bad connection. If everyone agrees to the plan, one can go for it immediately (tonight for example)

    This set is simple. We'll discuss the trade after Currency.
     
  4. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Or we can just adopt our own religion and say eat buggers!
    :D

    IMO we're playing with fire by giving Gandhi those 2 techs, he'll only need Monarchy,Calendar before going to Music... Monarchy being easy for him to grab via trade.

    EDIT: X-Post with dingding: will look at micro when I get home.
     
  5. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    I can't post detailed modification now, but there are something obvious

    1. no need of road on silver, I'd rather send 2 workers to clean the fallout (save 2 worker turns) so that the 2nd citizen can work on the silver in time.
    2. SP build -- should be a galley as we want to settle an island city as soon as possible
    3. 3rd city -- IMO WB, we need 1 for the clam and 2 to scout and more for potential seafood, which is too many for SP to produce it alone.
    4. 4th city on Marble as the majority, hence we need to send 2 workers to Marble to clear the fallout.
    5. Warrior near English should scout NORTH as Churchill has better units now, also beware of the Chinese archers.
    6. Don't let chariot approach the inner ring of any french city, otherwise, they will attack.
    Be very careful of military unit, they are very vulnerable.

    All right, here's detailed modifications from impression, correct me if off.

    NEW WORKER MICRO after post #398

    Warrior in the west continues to explore -- North and beware of Chinese archers
    Warrior in the east scout in order no enemy archer approaches. -- stays alert or just head back
    Chariot scout DR -- can pillage the Corn tile, don't go in the inner ring tiles of any city.

    T83 Revolt to Bureau+CS --NO CS, there's no usage of CS and it only increase civic fee now, later we want slavery.

    Missionary go to Moscow -- Stays, Moscow has good chance to get the free religion spread, I'd rather use it for a distance island city, such as the southern clam city.

    Worker 2N1W of St Petersburg remove fallout -- to the silver

    Worker 2S of St Petersburg go to 2N1W of St Petersburg

    T84 Worker 2N1W of St Petersburg go 2N2W -- make sure the worker on deer clear fallout 1st

    Worker on ruin go 1N

    T85 Slider to 100%
    Worker on Silver road -- SF
    Worker on deer road
    Worker on 1N1W of deer road

    T86 Settler out, go to ruin, Moscow build another settler
    Another worker on silver SF

    T88 City 3 settled => Library -- WB, take the COW tile from SP
    3 Worker improve deer
    1 Worker on Sliver removes fallout -- Mine

    T89 1 Worker on deer go to silver and remove -- goes to Marble
    SP (takes back COW, lake tile to COW)

    T90 Settler out, go to 1N of Marble -- riverside deer 1W of 3rd city

    1 worker on deer go to remove fallout on silver -- goes to Marble
    1 worker on deer go 2N to road -- goes to Marble
    So I send 3 workers to Marble in order to clear the fallout in time, 3 workers on 4th city is better than sending 1 worker to improve the eastern deer of 3rd city
    worker on Marble SF
    Moscow (worker)

    T91 GLH Ok => Library -- Galley
    1 worker on silver improve silver -- NULL
    another 2 worker on Marble SF and cancel 1 worker job since i'd like to send him to 1S to road next turn

    T92 Currency Ok, stop
     
  6. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    Yes, I mean our own religion, or can we get the luck of his religion?

    He could research Monarchy himself now and Math open the construction too.
     
  7. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Yes but he isn't at war anymore, it'll influence his tech choices, no?
     
  8. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    ^I'm not sure what he is researching now, there's good chance it's Aes.:sad: Hence it's just a lucky roll right now and surely we might need to change our tech path if Music is in danger. The good thing is that our tech rate is superior.:king:
     
  9. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    I have quite a bit of difficulty in preparing both the silver, the deer and the second city site in time.

    I'll start from t84 as that's when the first deer is cleaned up.

    Problem #1
    City #3 is settled on t88, we need 5 worker turns on t88-t89 to improve the deer.

    Fairly easy to solve, we only need 3/2 workers on t88/t89, or 2/3 on t88/t89.

    Problem #2
    City #3 grows on t95, we need (8+5+m, where m is the number of workers moving to the hill)
    If only one worker goes there on t84, we'll be short 2 turns on the mine (84~95 is 12 worker turns). So we need to send another worker (move 1 turn) to scrub fallout (2 turns) - that's 3 turns.
    Total worker turns = 8+5+2 = 15

    vs a road: 8sf+5m+3r+1m = 17 worker turns

    no road saves 2 turns overall, but does this come back to bite us later? No, we can use a galley to transport the worker that will improve the other deer.

    Harder to solve, we send 1 worker there for turns 85m-86sf-87sf, on t88 he goes to the deer OR 86m-87sf-88sf t89 deer.

    It could also be done later however we'll need workers elsewhere at that time (4th city).

    Problem #3
    City #4 settled on t93

    Requires 8turns of sf + 2 turns to move = 10 worker turns

    Easy right? Send a worker on t84 and the tile is cleaned on t93 (84~93 is 10 worker turns, not 9 as you include both ends).

    No! This means we're missing 1 worker on the deer as we have 4, 1 on the silver that is busy up to t95 and 1 too far away on the marble to improve the deer.

    Solution: no other choice than to use the silver mine worker, meaning we need to make up 2 turns of worker there (15 without a road becomes 17 = same as building a road)
    OR
    spend 3 turns making a useless road on the marble so that the worker there can come on t89 to finish the camp on deer (even worse).

    Simply put, Problem 3 and Problem 2 coincide, meaning a road on the silver does not make any difference in terms of worker turns! It might actually prove better however for when we send the first galley to the island, allowing a better decision of where to land the workers. (I guess Erkon put the city ruins where he suggested cities in most cases, possibly a seafood we can't see)

    So, unless someone can come up with a genius plan to make the silver mine road sub-optimal, I agree with the road.

    Now to check the rest of the micro :)
     
  10. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    ^ Then how do you manage to clear the fallout for 4th city?

    Check for the new update, 3rd city delays deer improvement by 1 turn, so it's 2F vs 2 worker turns:D, what's your choice?

    Deer is a good resource to trade and the eastern deer needs road to be connected.
     
  11. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    1 worker on t84 goes to clear fallout, I'll put up a save in 2 minutes.

    EDIT:
    2F in 3rd city is actually meaningful! At size 2 it has only +2 food surplus, so it means we get to 3rd pop 1 turn sooner with that extra food, snowball etc.

    Save included. I have not gone much further after this in micro but I think it should be similar... the Rice will be cleared when City #4 expands borders, improved 3 turns afterwards.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    Another choice is to send 3 workers to clear the fallout, at least that's the worker turn even as road on silver and one more worker on the 4th city to improve. So road on silver IS the suboptimal micro, or not?
     
  13. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Yes and no... if you want a road to the eastern deer, then the road on silver is good.

    Having 3 workers on the marble isn't great either, we'd only need 3 to improve the rice 1 turn faster but maybe we can make it work?

    And 2 workers should be ready to board the galley when it is finished of course.

    EDIT:

    Just to be clear, I think the micro of this set should be decided by a longer test as the timing is really tight after this.
     
  14. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    Hehe, your test map is a little off, the mountain in 3rd city should be 1E of the city center. I did not use your new test file but using the old one with a little modification myself.:D Guess that's why dingding want to road the silver.

    What's your choice between 2F vs 2 worker turns?

    I agree, I have never had a very clear mind on the micro in the 1st test run, the micro in this game is much more complicated.
     
  15. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Ahhh I understand now... brb fixing test map and gonna test again to see.
     
  16. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Gah! We need more workers!

    Marble city needs at least 3 to keep up with improvements -> this to me is enough to say no road on the silver in the new light that the mountain is 1S of the location in the test game.

    2 workers to work in silver city to ready the deer for pop 3 by t105.

    2 workers on island to settle ASAP - presumably they will stay there as well to clean and mine the grass hill.

    And then we need to irrigate the rice and improve the hills in Moscow (2+)

    9 workers, we'll have 5 on t92.

    St-Pete: GLH>Galley>Worker>WB>WB ?

    Moscow: Settler>Settler>Worker>?(Worker>Worker)?
     
  17. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    This is a hard one!

    As I said already, 2F in silver city means 1 turn earlier to pop 3 => 2 more food from deer so it's already 4F and will keep to augment.

    However we're lacking workforce in general so those 2 worker turns can mean 1 turn earlier rice, 2F in marble city instead.

    The 2 worker turns will reduce headaches a bit but I'd have to thoroughly test the development of marble city to be certain it will make a difference there to make up for the loss of 2F in silver city.

    I'm not certain I have that time unfortunately but I can try 2~3 tests tonight again.

    EDIT: couldn't figure it out tonight, too sick too tired not enough time... it's easy up to t92 but by t95 everything breaks.

    Either go with Duckweed's micro or try to figure something else :)
     
  18. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    Well, it's impossible to keep new cities on best shape while we want to expand to at least 6 cities as soon as possible. IMO, just let new cities down:( and focus improvement on capital as it's where our SOD comes. Settler>worker as long as new cities can support themselves, isn't that the GLH for?:D

    Edit: new update on #385
     
  19. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    @ Duck:

    4th city in 1N of Marble leaves enough room for the southern coastal city (rice + 2 wines) - more coastal cities = better - and also makes it the best place for NP (5 free spe). OTOH 1 deer in the 1st rang > 1 rice in fallout and in the 2nd rang.

    Road on Silver costs 3 turns, saves 1 turn for another worker moving and allow workers to move to the deer in the east quickly.

    Sorry I have an unexpected mission tomorrow I have to go for a trip. Anyone can replace me?
     
  20. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    I can't test today unfortunately, but can resume Wednesday-Thursday, probably ready to play on Thursday - so if anyone can test today to play tomorrow, that'd be better.

    Re: silver road
    There's a mistake in the test game, 1E of the silver there's no mountain -> that mountain is 1E of the city.

    I did consider settling 1N of marble for the reasons you state (and saved worker turns)... however I had agreed to go on marble when I thought we might grab TGL earlier - now with delaying TGL after Machinery, it gives us 10 worker turns we are sorely lacking *now* but we'll have to spend 1+8+9 = 18 later to improve the marble instead...
    Maybe not a bad deal.
     

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