1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

SGOTM 12 - Plastic Ducks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2009
    Messages:
    408
    Location:
    Dijon, France
    @ All:

    Sorry about the delay. I have less time in Weekend than in Weekdays.
    If hydraculas wants to take the set, please go ahead.

    @ hydraculs:

    I tested the different approaches between horse-first and gold-first. I think the latter beats the former because:
    1) We're prioritizing beakers to hammers.
    2) The second city can use the gold directly, otherwise we lose -1 food from unhealthy status.

    True that using the horse can accelerate the 2nd city by 1 turn, but I don't think that's the point.

    Would you like to submit the plan?

    @ all:
    I think keeping the war status is good for us for the moment, as I see AI prioritize EP and military techs particularly during the war, which slows down their tech and disrupts their tech path. I see more advantages than disadvantages of warring.

    If the neighbor(s) don't have much merits of being conquered, we may want to keep it and OB with it ASAP. After Renaissance we'll have lots of possibilities to trade for the advanced techs they have (Nationalism, Constitution, Communism, etc.), I envisage to improve the relationship with them during the middle-age, but now it's premature.

    GLH may still be worth a try even it may fails: it's still as good as hammering money. AIs' productions are indeed poor, we still have a decent chance to beat them on GLH by slow building. But now I need to consider it as unjustified because the Bottleneck of expansion is not maintenance fees (exclu. traderoads) but workers. GLH is worth 1 settler+3 workers, with which we can expand much more smoothly. Earlier/better expansion has also a snowball effect as Duckweed indicates.

    OTOH, we still have the possibility to capture GLH.

    Techs: Fishing=>Writing/Sailing is good to me. Then we can start Mysterism/CoL/Maths. We may want to delay Masonry as late as possible to get max bonus: AIs put it in high priority, I'm sure every of them will tech it sooner or later.
     
  2. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    Early horses: it has advantages but also disadvantages, for example it delays the rice by a few turns and then the second gold by a few turns.

    I'll look in the exact numbers in a little while.
     
  3. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    77
    @dingding
    Actually it's two turns earlier of settler and worker3 if I change the worrier to settler when pops got 3. We have city2 at t46 and worker3 at t49. That's good. And we can also take use of the gold mine in turn 49, just 1turns later for city2. 2 turns ealier of city2 gain 2 turns of trade routes and other coins(tech: -2/+15), that's not bad at all.
     
  4. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    77
    @kossin
    if we wanna keep settler>worker>worker at pop3, early horse should be take in consider because it's the most efficient when three pops work on 2 cows and one horse.

    And that won't delay the rice so much since when the 4th worker finished, the rice will finished just in one turn.(I moved back worker3 to accelerate gold mine and rice, then sent worker 4 to city2)
     
  5. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2009
    Messages:
    408
    Location:
    Dijon, France
    @ hydraculas:

    Gold first:
    Gold at t41.
    2nd city at t47.
    3rd worker at t51.

    Horse first:
    Gold at t49
    2nd city at t46
    3rd worker at t49

    Comparison:
    That's 2turns of the cap + 1 turn of the second city (horse-first) for 8 turns of gold - 64 commerce (gold-first).
    While 1 turn of the second city = 2(TR) + 1 + 2 (fish) - 2 (maintenance) = 3 commerce.

    So that's 2 turns of the cap for 63 commerce (= 1 fishing/mysterism)
    I'm still for gold-first.

    Edit: to add to what you said at #104: the horse tile will become redundant when rice/2nd gold is improved. While compared to the silk tile (2F1H1C), the horse gives 2 more production (1F4H1C), would be good for spamming settler, less important for building worker, esp. in comparison with the gold tile.

    Edit 2: Why don't we vote for it to accelerate the process? My vote for gold first.
     
  6. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    Well dingding beat me to it... it's much stronger in terms of commerce to get the gold first.

    However you do gain 3H with 1 turn earlier settler...

    63:commerce: vs 3:hammers: is an easy choice for me, gold first.

    Next big question is tech path:
    Fishing>Writing
    Fishing>Pottery>Writing
    or Fishing>Sailing


    I don't really see other choices.

    Heck we might even play a quickie 6 turns to finish Fishing to get that part out of testing. Who knows what we can learn in those 6 turns?
     
  7. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    4,674
    Good discussions!:goodjob:

    Vote:
    1. Gold 1st.
    2. Tech: Fishing->Sailing->Writing

    I'm fine for either dingding continuing on the game if he can commit in the next few days or hydraculas takes it, then dingding needs to submit the save to the official site and hydraculas need to download the save there.

    @kossin
    I just ran a longer test to GLH and successfully to grab both Oracle and GLH, will post the result later.

    In the test game, Gandhi grabbed a religion, which posed more risk than actual game for Oracle.

    Techwise, I skipped BW, went for
    Fishing->Sailing->Writing->Mys->Med->PH->Masonry->CoL->Math
     
  8. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    4,674
    That's a good point. However, the problem, if we want CS, then we can not expand before that. I'm happy that Erkon leave the chance of normal diplomacy (i.e. OB and tech trade), which makes GLH more powerful. I now consider Astro as a more critical tech than Edu.
     
  9. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    Yea, that's what I did as well in my test which got Oracle+CoL+CS at t85.

    One further point in favor of CS from Oracle: in the test game all AIs know each other therefore tech faster (because in the original 4000BC save I had put them at war with each other).

    Anyway, I would like for the save to be uploaded at least 1 turn after city #2 is settled.

    Heck... might as well gamble and adapt if we see the possibility of losing Oracle. Agree with your tech path.
     
  10. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2009
    Messages:
    408
    Location:
    Dijon, France
    @ kossin:

    You're right, why not?

    If you'd like, you can proceed now. I'd be able to do so as well but it's a bit too late.

    Edit: If the next player can't proceed unless submitting to the official website, I will continue the turnset until one turn after the 2nd city is settled, as kossin said. That would give the least enough info to our competitors. The plan for the next 14 turns (until the gold is improved) would be:

    Spoiler :

    t27 Worker 1 go to northern Cow
    t28 Worker 1 road
    t29 Worker 2 out, go 1N1W to road; Moscow on warrior
    t30 Worker 1 removes fallout
    t32 Worker 2 joins Worker 1
    t33 Warrior 1 out, go North scouting
    t34 2 Workers improve Cow
    t35 Moscow 2nd pop on CoW
    t36 2 Worker go to gold
    t37 Warrior 2 out, go West scouting; Moscow on 3rd warrior
    t39 Moscow pop = 3, 3rd pop on 2F1H1C
    t40 Warrior 3 out; go scouting around (be back for garrison later); Moscow starts Settler, 3rd pop on 3H
    t41 Gold improved, 3rd pop on gold. OVER


    EP target should be discussed. I still like to put on average the EP on each AI and concentrate it on the first neighbor we meet. Gandhi has Alphabet, we know well his tech path which makes him less interesting to be the EP target though he may be the biggest Oracle competitor.

    Roosevelt is the biggest competitor on GLH and may be our neighbor. Washington had a good growth, maybe that being said it's coastal as well? Might be more interesting to put EP on him
     
  11. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    Fine with me, I'll wait for one/two more person(s) to agree before doing so.

    Just so it's clear, this is the question:

    Heck we might even play a quickie 6 turns to finish Fishing to get that part out of testing. Who knows what we can learn in those 6 turns?
     
  12. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    77
    That's not true. That's not a simple question 63 beakers vs 3 hammers. You neglect the movement of workers and snowball effect a lot.

    It seems impossible to settle at t47, unless you put 2 workers to clear the fallout.
    I run a test for both side with the same production process settler>worker>worker>library(pop to 5)>continues workers(to see the snowball effect), the result amazed me a lot and proofed the snowball effect again.

    Here are the results on turn68

    Spoiler :
    gold first

    horse first


    about the financial:
    gold first: gold(322(-3)+36), mathematics(256/390)
    horse first: gold(253(-3)+37),mathematics(322/390)

    horse first capital pops to 5 on t60;gold first capital pops to 5 on t63. When they pops to 5, library finished, and change to 100%of tech contribution.
    On t68, gold first only lead about 25 beakers.

    Then let's see the production:
    gold first: city1:worker(25/60)city2:library(78/90) pop growth(3/24)
    horse first: city1:worker(58/60)city2:library(76/90) pop 3

    So it's a problem 25 beakers against 31hammers and 21 food !

    Considering the snowball effect of early workers, it can just be more.
    Moreover, do not neglect the possibility of capturing workers by chariots!

     
  13. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    77
    Actually it's gold at t47, since I had another try and changed the road building.

    So it's just 6 turns of enjoying the gold ahead in the capital, with the cost of X turns of working on bad tile(forest) and a snowball effect of slower workers.

    Since you move both of the workers to clean the fallout of city2 and with a slower worker3, the rice will just come later.
     
  14. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    What was your tech path?
    Fishing>Writing?

    It becomes kinda awkward with Fishing>Sailing when the capital needs to grow as you work on a useless Barracks...

    I'm not sure I understand the gold differentials in your game... there's 69 extra gold by improving gold first, that's 23 turns of research at -3 ... considering 36 bpt that's 828 more beakers... am I doing something wrong?
     
  15. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    77
    No I don't work on Barrack.
    I suppose there are mainly two reasons of the gold differentials in my game.
    a) the capital of horse first pop to 5 3 turns earlier, as well as the complete of library. With a library and 5 pop, the capital can take 2 gold mine and that's very strong.

    b) Horse first can use the second gold tile earlier. The gold first just do not have the population to do this, otherwise city2 will not have a chance to grow up or city1 will grow very slowly.

     
  16. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    77
    What's more, now I prefer to gain our first GS in City2. The pop5 of the capital is too strong(2cows 2gold mines 1horse) and I don't wanna abandon any of it.
     
  17. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2009
    Messages:
    408
    Location:
    Dijon, France
    @ hydraculas:

    Would like to reply to you in detail but time doesn't permit.

    Yes I used two workers to remove the fallout for the 2nd city.

    Another thing to say: if gold first, the horse doesn't necessarily need to be improved because the cap works well on rice and 2 gold as well.

    Don't understand why in your tests there was 1 pop of difference in the 2nd city: IMO if gold first, 2nd city will produce a WB earlier than horse-first so will gain more food. I suppose it's because your micro is different from mine about workers removing fallout in the 2nd city?
     
  18. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,194
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    @ Hydraculas & all :

    - I've had trouble managing the growth from size 3 to size 4 in the capital. At that time, city 2 is only size 1 and working the fish. Hence it cannot work the gold.
    If the capital grows on the gold, it will take 5 turns, against 4 working the horse, against 3 working the rice.

    Despite of (or thanks to) my poor micro, it seems to me that the growth is much easier to manage with Hydraculas approach.
    The reason is simple : the 4th worker is done several turns before the workboat in city 2, which gives the capital some time to grow while city 2 still works the gold tile.

    - In that train of thought (worker moves) : do you improve the rice before the 2nd gold ? I think I would but didn't test properly yet.

    - When do you complete the 3rd warrior ? I tend to do it after the 3rd worker. That's about when we would start losing hammers.

    - Alternative road network (2 golds instead of forest ; takes some more turns right now but saves some on the way back, a roaded gold being more useful than a roaded forest...) :
    Spoiler :




    EDIT :
    Could also look that way for horse 1st :
    Spoiler :
     
  19. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    77
    Because I try to keep at least a pop in the gold tile. Which means, city2 only start to growth when the capital pops to 5(take the gold of city2), so that's why city2 of horse first grow 3 turns early.

     
  20. hydraculas

    hydraculas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    77
    @BornInCantaloup

    I suppose build road in the forest is the best, since it save turns both for settler and the worker to clean the fallout.
    When grow from 3 to 4, first rice then gold, yes that's right. You will found that when worker 4 finished, the rice happened to be completed, and we can use rice,cow,cow to grow to 4.
    Then I take (cow,cow,rice,gold)to grow to 5, it happened to be (4+6*4=28) 4 turns,when it's turn 60.
    City2 take the gold tile until capital is pop 5.

    As we can see, in this approach we can use 2 gold mines early.
     

Share This Page