SGOTM 12 - Smurkz

[zyxy]

Ok, looking good!

Comments:
- I would wait exactly one turn with trades. We will meet another civ through culture expansion, which will lower prices.
- It looks like a coastal archipel. This is good for us, because the AI doesn't know how to make contact early, but we do.
- I think the Roman deal of BW for Potts + 13 gold is pretty good.
- I would trade with Aztecs and the other civ to our south if we can get something reasonable, because the starting techs lose their value very fast.
- We do not have an ivory monopoly.
- The 3rd citizen needs to switch from bg to lake.

 

[Niklas]

Alright, nice start, lots of contacts already as was to be expected on this crowded map.

Roster:

• CommandoBob - Just Played
• Niklas - UP!
• ControlFreak - On Deck!
• McLMan - Warming Up
• zyxy
• sercer88

Got it, will post thoughts during the day.

 

[ControlFreak]

Not a bad turnset CB, but we did potentially lose 2 turns of tech advancement:
Move our Warrior
Since the aztecs have four techs, I know they met someone and traded two for two. I'm presuming that was the dark green civ since their borders are so close and diety AI start with so many units. Once we have contact, we can probably do some good trading. There are already twofer options as Rome does not have all the techs that Aztecs do but does have alphabet (which means we might as well trade it if we can get market value). That means if you had moved the warrior south when he was built we might have met the green civ and would be able to trade for all four known techs and the worlds gold using only alphabet/bronze. He can see units on the far shore if they are there and we need contact with the dark green civ this turn. The trades would not advance our tech rate, but would advance the other civs tech rate because they're probably researching bronze working and we want them to research things that we don't already have. (So possibly 1 turn lost.)
Use DNM
Since our curraughs get 5 move points, you need to be moving them Sea, Sea, Coast instead of Coast, Coast. You had no choice on the first move, N,N. But after that you should have moved N,E,NE which would have put you 1 tile further. Next turn should have been NW,N,N which would have put you where you are now on turn 9. It's like you fortified the curaugh for one turn. (Second turn lost.)

As always, my comments are meant to be helpful critiques and not bashing you. I know you know that.

EDIT: By the way, I don't know where you think the ivory is connected, but we skipped the ivory road. The road your worker finished was on a cow. The ivory won't be connected until after the BG cow is irrigated so we need to keep the luxury slider high (especially after the warrior goes on walkabout).

 

[sercer88]

When you said "spotted green border to our south" I first thought we were sharing an Island with an AI

Then I saw the pic right underneath.

I haven't said much lately, but, there's nothing to add yet.

 

[CommandoBob]

Not a bad turnset CB, but we did potentially lose 2 turns of tech advancement:
Move our Warrior

That didn't cross my mind, sorry. I was focused on keeping the city productive and the science slider as high as possible. Walking the warrior, eh, well, never occured to me.

Use DNM

That is spot on. I thought '5 move points per curragh; that's a max of two coastal tiles' instead of 'How far will 5 move points take me, knowing that I can always enter the last tile with 1 move point'. And that viewpoint difference (self-limiting vs. open-ended) does make a difference is how quickly we meet the neighbors.

As always, my comments are meant to be helpful critiques and not bashing you. I know you know that.

EDIT: By the way, I don't know where you think the ivory is connected, but we skipped the ivory road. The road your worker finished was on a cow. The ivory won't be connected until after the BG cow is irrigated so we need to keep the luxury slider high (especially after the warrior goes on walkabout).

But don't cows give ivory colored milk? Isn't that the same.

Gem fetish last game; ivory fetish this time. I guess I have a luxury addiction.

 

[ControlFreak]

Understandable on all counts, CB.

We'll satisfy your luxury addiction soon enough. Wow 2 luxuries for us! Plus we're not sure if there is a connection to more land to the SW. {cross fingers}

sercer, thanks for chiming in. Feel free to add what you like and what you think so we can get a feel for how much alignment you have with the team.

 

[McLMan]

Very nice start CB.

I think we need to do some trading before we're left out in the cold. The proposed Roman trade is a good one, then get whatever we can out of the Aztecs and the other green civ.

 

[ControlFreak]

Ok, looking good!

Comments:
- I would wait exactly one turn with trades. We will meet another civ through culture expansion, which will lower prices.
- It looks like a coastal archipel. This is good for us, because the AI doesn't know how to make contact early, but we do.
- I think the Roman deal of BW for Potts + 13 gold is pretty good.
- I would trade with Aztecs and the other civ to our south if we can get something reasonable, because the starting techs lose their value very fast.
- We do not have an ivory monopoly.
- The 3rd citizen needs to switch from bg to lake.

Very nice start CB.

I think we need to do some trading before we're left out in the cold. The proposed Roman trade is a good one, then get whatever we can out of the Aztecs and the other green civ.

The Aztecs have 0 gold but four techs. I can only assume they had Pottery (cheap) and Warrior Code and bought Wheel and CB for their techs plus 20g. That means two things. Dark Green is Japan (wheel+CB=Japan), and Japan has the same four techs as the Aztecs plus 20g.

So, McLMan is right that we should trade, but not without finding Japan. zyxy is right but not about waiting for one turn, if we can find Japan with our fortified warrior this turn. Move the warrior south. Hopefully he can see some japanese unit. Then check to see if Bronze will get us wheel. If it can I'm guessing we'd be able to trade the wheel for warrior code from Rome. If Bronze won't get us the twofer, then Bronze+Alphabet definitely will. If we trade Bronze+Alphabet, we should be able to get all four techs and the worlds gold.

Note it also seems like Rome met someone with Pottery and Alphabet or Warrior code. It could be the Aztecs but that would mean they would have had to meet before the Aztecs met Japan (Aztecs have 0g so they would have made the trade with Rome and then the trade with Japan.) I don't think it's worth waiting to find Rome's trading partner though. Meet Japan and pull the deal when you do.

EDIT: Remember Worker01 will be irrigating, Worker02 built on the IBT will move to join Worker01, but road instead of helping with the irrigation. That way they can both take advantage of the road the turn after it's built.

EDIT2:

- The 3rd citizen needs to switch from bg to lake.

That is true, but I don't know if the tile selection on this turn means anything. I think the governor will reassign tiles when our border expands. I don't know whether that happens before or after the food/production/commerce is computed. (Go ahead an make the switch anyway, but it maybe should have been done last turn and then the default governor assignment would have finished the worker.)

 

[Niklas]

Long term plan
Get elected as benevolent world dictator.
Research like crazy, hoping to get as much help as possible from the AI.

Mid term plans
Meet our neighbors quickly. Try to get as many twofer trades as possible.
Research up to Literature to get libraries for us and our opponents.

My turnset
Furzt Smurkz and our two workers should work according to the following plan:

I couldn't figure out how to get the second warrior after the second curragh without massive overflow and delaying the curragh that comes after. CF's spread sheet didn't make much sense to me to be honest . If there's a way to do this, please tell me, since it seems more important to me to get the curragh out than to get another worker.

EDIT: Looking at the sheet, there's an obvious optimization to be done, namely to let both workers road the W Cow before both irrigating it. Irrigation complete same turn as before, road two turns faster, and since we're working the tile that means 2 extra beakers.

Move our MP worker S (raise lux tax) to meet the Japs and try to get good trades through twofers between Rome and Aztecs/Japs. All in all I as I meet new friends I will evaluate the situation for trades, I won't stop at every opportunity so you'll have to trust me on that one.

EDIT2: I actually doubt I'll get that many more chances for trades. The only other first-tier tech missing is Masonry, so all I can hope for is that and gold, no way we'll get any 2nd-tiers during the first 20 turns.

Keep warriors at home as MPs (except for the first Japs trip) and run at 100% research towards Writing, optimizing for beakers at each turn.

 

[ControlFreak]

Then, after the worker is built, curaugh2, warrior2*, curaugh3.

*warrior2 comes before curaugh 3 because the town is in the process of growing from 3 to 4. It would take 3 turns to build the curaugh with an over run of 4, but it only takes 2 turns to build the warrior and then then can build the curaugh in 2.

So: curaugh, warrior, worker, curaugh, warrior curaugh, curaugh.

Long term plan
I couldn't figure out how to get the second warrior after the second curragh without massive overflow and delaying the curragh that comes after. CF's spread sheet didn't make much sense to me to be honest . If there's a way to do this, please tell me, since it seems more important to me to get the curragh out than to get another worker.

I don't have my spreadsheet at home so I can't speak to what I was thinking until tomorrow. But for what it's worth, my spreadsheet made perfect sense to me. I think I ran into a lack of sheilds to build curaugh 2 in two turns even if I threw in the warrior before it as you have. Since it's possible, I don't think it's a problem doing it your way. However, if I can figureout how to the the warrior in 1 turn, after building curaugh2, it would be better to do that because the curaugh is more important than the warrior.

EDIT: Looking at the sheet, there's an obvious optimization to be done, namely to let both workers road the W Cow before both irrigating it. Irrigation complete same turn as before, road two turns faster, and since we're working the tile that means 2 extra beakers.

Well done. I've been out worker managed.

 

[Niklas]

3500 BC (0):
Move Warrior01 S and see a Japanese warrior across the waters. Hail him and ask for news.

Toku will not give up TW for BW alone, although Alpha alone would do the trick. He would give TW, CB and 20 gp for Alpha, so I do that deal. From Monte we could get WC or Pottery for Alpha, Rome has it already of course. Rome would not give up Pottery for CB alone, so I must either give him BW or TW to get it. TW has a lot more value, he would give everything he has for it. For that very reason I'd like to keep it close for now, for the chance to get good trades for it later on. I also believe in dividing the AI into good and bad, i.e. I would rather trade BW to Toku to bring him up to par with us than trade Alpha to Monte to put them both on equal terms but slightly below us. For these reasons I trade BW and CB to Caesar for WC and 13 gp (all), and then BW to Toku for Pot. This puts us with all gold and tech known to any of our neighbors. We are up TW on Rome, and Alpha + BW on Monte. They could of course trade between each other, but so be it then.

We have horses under Furst Smurkz, yay!

Citizen from BG to Lake. Lux rate to 20%.

IBT:
Furzt Smurkz builds Worker02, continues with warrior. Cultural borders expand.

3450 BC (1):
Warrior01 back into Furzt Smurkz, Lux rate back down to 0%.
Worker01 starts roading the western BG Cow, Worker02 moves to that same location.

Sneaky Smurkz moves W and spots a grey border (India?), then NW-N to end near Rome.

Citizens work BG Cow and Plains Cow.

On the foreign front, it seems Rome and Aztecs didn't trade, but Aztecs now have BW, either self-researched or traded from somewhere else entirely. In any case we are now up Alpha on Monte and TW on Rome.

IBT:
Caesar wants us to move, which of course we will.
An indian curragh comes into view.

3400 BC (2):
Worker02 helps 01 road the BG Cow.

Gandhi has 0 gp and nothing new, we are up TW on him as well. Sneaky Smurkz moves W-NW-W.

IBT:
Furzt Smurkz builds Warrior02, continues with Curragh.

3350 BC (3):
Workers01 and 02 starts irrigating BG Cow.
Warrior02 fortifies in FS as MP, won't be needed until next turn but there isn't really anything else to do with him for a single turn.

Sneaky Smurkz moves N and spots a Mayan warrior. Very interesting since Smoke-Jaguar knows how to build stuff from stone. He isn't willing to part with it for Alpha + CB + all our gold even, or TW alone either. No reason to keep TW close if I can get a good deal for it, so I trade TW + CB for Masonry + 1 gp. Sneaky Smurkz concludes his move by going W, sees a purple border up in the NW.

Rome now has TW as well, and Monte has Alpha, so we are now up Alpha on Maya and TW on India, and of course Masonry on everyone except Maya.

IBT:
Furzt Smurkz grows to size 3.

3300 BC (4):
Move Sneaky Smurkz N and hail the purple Portuguese. They are down TW and Mas, and have 1 gold. No point in trading. Continue N and note the white stuff covering the ground further N. We're closing in on the northern edges of the world now.

Citizens work BG Cow, Plains Cow and Forest Ivory. I am pleased to report that for the first time, CAII does not complain that I could just as well switch to a lone scientist and save a lot of gold.

IBT:
Furzt Smurkz builds Red Zailz, continues on another curragh.
Aztecs are building Colossus.

3250 BC (5):
Red Zailz moves 2N instead of N-NW, he will reach just as far on the next turn but can block the Roman curragh to his E from getting in our way.

Worker01 moves to Plains Ivory, Worker02 to eastern Cow.

Sneaky Smurkz moves N-W.

Citizens work all three Cows.

IBT:
Portugal are building Colossus.

3200 BC (6):
Sneaky Smurkz N-NW-W, Red Zailz NW-W-S.

Both workers start roading.

Citizens stay on Cows.

IBT:
Furzt Smurkz grows to size 4, and builds Crimzon Pirate, continues with yet another curragh.
Romans and Japanese are building Colossus.

3150 BC (7):
Lux rate to 10% lest I forget. Citizens on Cows and Plains Ivory.

Red Zailz moves 2W and spots a cyan border, could be the Mayans.
Sneaky Smurkz moves N-NW-W to round the northern icy cape.
Crimzon Pirate moves N-NW.

IBT:
Mayans and Indians are building Colossus. That means everyone we know now.

3100 BC (8):
Crimzon Pirate W-SW. Red Zailz 2W-SW and ends inside Mayan borders. Sneaky Smurkz W-SW-S and finds a Spanish curragh (which for the sake of confusion also is cyan-colored). Spain is down TW and Mas, and have 3 gp.

Lux rate to 0% since the Grand Ivory Road will complete before the IBT.

Rome has now procured Masonry, and Portugal TW. We are up Mas on everyone but Maya and Rome, and TW on Spain.

IBT:
Ivory road completes. Mayans want us to leave their territory.
Furzt Smurkz builds Zcarlet Rafter, switches to warrior.

The French city of Paris has completed the Colossus! At deity the AI builds at 60% cost, which means 120 shields for the Colossus, over 18 turns that's 6.66 spt on average. If they started at turn 1 that is, which I doubt. I dare say we are not the only ones with a good start.

3050 BC (9):
Zcarlet Rafter 2N, intend to send him into the straits between Rome and Aztecs (if there are any).
Crimzon Pirate 2SW, spots wines on our island next to the incense.
Red Zailz SE-S-SW. Sneaky Smurkz W and meets a Korean spear (a slightly darker shade of purple than Portugal). They are down Mas and TW, but have 35 gp. I finish the moves by going 2W, meet no one new, then go back to Wang King Kong and sell him TW for all his gold.

Workers mine the Plains Ivory in cooperation.

IBT:
Furzt Smurkz grows to size 5 and builds Warrior03. Set it to curragh for now, we will have to discuss after my handoff.

3000 BC (10):
Zcarlet Rafter N-E-NE, Crimzon Pirate 2S, Red Zailz 2S-W (SW blocked by Roman curragh) and finds the Incas. They have 0 gp and are our equals in tech. Sneaky Smurkz moves W-NW, finds nothing but snow.

Handoff here. Only thing to note is that I didn't bother to send a curragh into the black between Maya and India. Since I met a Mayan warrior with Sneaky Smurkz between India and Portugal in the north, there must be a land bridge between them, so a curragh wouldn't be able to go very far up there.

>>The Save<<

Pressing question for next turnset: What to build next?

EDIT: Some handoff images:

Spoiler Furzt Smurkz 3000 BC :

Spoiler Known world 3000 BC :

Spoiler Trading situation 3000 BC :

 

[Niklas]

Roster:

• CommandoBob
• Niklas - Just Played
• ControlFreak - UP!
• McLMan - On Deck!
• zyxy - Warming Up
• sercer88

 

[CommandoBob]

Furzt Smurkz builds Red Zailz, continues on another curragh.
Furzt Smurkz grows to size 4, and builds Crimzon Pirate, continues with yet another curragh.
Furzt Smurkz builds Zcarlet Rafter, switches to warrior.

I love the boat names!

And I hear the names pronounced with a thick Peter Sellers/Inspector Clouseau (Pink Panther movies) accent.

Clouseau: You have a boat here named Zcarlet Rafter?
Dock Hand: A boat named what?
Clouseau: Zcarlet Rafter.
Dock Hand: Zarlot what?
Clouseau: Zcarlet Rafter!
Dock Hand: Oh, you mean Scarlet Rafter.
Clouseau: Yezz, Zcarlet Rafter, that iz what I zaid.

Next Build
Harbor, for the extra commerce?

 

[Niklas]

Glad you liked 'em! I actually had the very same image in my head, I would have named one of the curraghs Pink Panther had there been any s in it.

As for harbor, I'm not so sure, it's a rather expensive build (though certainly very useful). I'm leaning more towards more workers, but again I feel we must make some sacrifices to the spread sheet gods.

 

[ControlFreak]

I'll get it later today. (And will have to be doing the spreadsheet sacrifice I guess.)

I am definitely opposed to the harbor. It costs maintenance and only helps us when we use coastal tiles. Except for possibly the lake, I don't anticipate us using any coastal tiles until size 11.

Workers are my preference, especially since many of our ivory tiles are unroaded and we're going to have to sacrifice a worker or two at some point to colonize the luxuries.

Too bad about losing the commerce from the horse tile by settling on it.

We've got the most gold in the world at the moment which means the AI is going to start asking for 20g tributes. If no one has map making, then no big deal, but after that, who can we survive, who do we want to be at war with etc.

With horses, I don't think we make any more warriors. Even regular horses (upgraded from cheap chariots) can be powerful against Japan.

Without looking at the game, I'm leaning towards one or two more boats, at least two more workers and then chariots or barraks then chariots.

 

[Niklas]

Actually, the lack of 2F tiles around makes MMing rather tricky, in many cases we have no choice but to MM for production when we would rather emphasize food and/or commerce. In that light the harbor would actually be rather valuable, I think it could more than well repay itself in terms of upkeep vs extra commerce. My main concern about it is that it is too much of a shield investment at this point, workers are likely to pay off a great deal more.

I'm of a mind to grow to size 6, and then build (at least) 6 workers which could be joined back into the town again. Probably we would want two more to colonize the two luxes, to cut down on the lux rate when we hit level 12. The problem is to find things to build in between the workers, the spreadsheet gods are not pleased. I'll keep fiddling and see what I can come up with.

As for things to build or not to build:

• Granary is way too expensive and will be of negligeble use to us at this stage.
• Temple gives us one more content citizen, but so would spending the 1 gp upkeep it costs on the lux rate instead. It won't be an option before Mysticism at least, and probably not then either.
• Barracks will of course be useful since we should plan for a rather early war. But since it costs upkeep, I would not throw it in until we know we're ready to start production of offensive units, be it exclusively or as in-betweens.
• Walls don't cost upkeep and could be an option if we find 10 shields free at some point. Normally not a likely scenario, but with all our resources...
• Chariots upgrade to horses (30 gp) which is nice. They also cost only 20 shields, which means they build rather fast.

Btw, anyone dare to bet against there being iron on the hills in the SW?

 

[zyxy]

Some workers sounds good.

EDIT: Is it allowed to build them below size 6 and add them back in above size 6?

Then perhaps granary or maybe a rax?

I'm going to guess that the hill hides iron...

EDIT: x-post with Niklas..

 

[sercer88]

EDIT: Is it allowed to build them below size 6 and add them back in above size 6?

Yes.

So, are our offensive troops gonna be horses, swords (if the hills have iron) or Ivory Cavalries ?

Let's hope the Aztecs don't build the SoZ. I think it would really help if we get the SoZ. But if we go for it, and miss...

 

[ControlFreak]

Yes.

So, are our offensive troops gonna be horses, swords (if the hills have iron) or Ivory Cavalries ?

Let's hope the Aztecs don't build the SoZ. I think it would really help if we get the SoZ. But if we go for it, and miss...

sercer@ is your Yes answer mean that it's allowed by the SGOTM (GOTM) rules, or just that it's possible to do in the game?

I would love it if the Aztecs build the SoZ. We will probably take over their empire soonish, so those Ancient cavs could be ours free of charge.

I'm all for spamming workers. I love workers!

I see what you mean about the harbor helping MM, but if we're going to build workers and join them back in, MM for growth is not a problem. We have the three cows, Bg and lake. The cows plus city center provide (2+1+3+2) food or +8. That means we could work a forest or plains for two turns and two forest and plains for a turn. That means we can be at size 6 or 7 without needed the other coastal tiles for food. If it becomes a problem we can also irrigate some plains. It's much cheaper than the harbor.

The harbor will definitely be needed later for connecting our resources and trading with the AI, but right now it's not needed.

Priorities right now are:

1. Meet friends
2. Keep up in tech
3. Get to libraries ASAP
4. Get max commerce/size ASAP
5. Connect luxuries
6. Prepare to conquer Japan. They are close enough to us that they will greatly contribute to our research power, more than they will on their own.

HBR will not be long coming, so I plan to use chariots as much as possible between worker builds. Do we think there are enough boats for now or do I need 1 or 2 more?

 

[sercer88]

I'm no expert on the SGOTM rules, but if I were making the rules, I don't see why that wouldn't be allowed. Disallowing that really would not make any sense at all, since that isn't exploiting any bug, or cheat, etc.